Lets talk ethanol fuel - for real

[Jaynelson]

So on this forum (and other sled forums), ethanol mixed fuel is frowned upon/not desirable. There seems to be a lot of mixed information on this subject, and maybe we can get some better answers (I don't have them, unfortunately). It seems that many people jumped on the anti-ethanol bandwagon, but I'm not sure if they understand how ethanol blends are performing in the non-sled world. Actually not sure - not being facetious. Hopefully some members have more info on this to share.

In many other high-performance internal combustion applications, ethanol fuels have been embraced. E-85, for example, (51-83% ethanol, remainder gasoline) has changed the game for small displacement/high compression/forced induction 4-stroke auto motors. Makes torque earlier on than race fuel (such as C12 or C16), and you can throw compression, timing, and boost at it all day. Usually, the only restriction is getting enough of it. Example here - 1400 to the wheels from a 3.0L....42psi, nitrous, blah, blah :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNbgS0VmYo0&feature=youtu.be




Now, this is E85, as opposed to the E10 or E15 you would likely use. However, this is good evidence than adding ethanol to gasoline should not be viewed as a performance detractor IMO. Yes, it is more prone to water absorption, but that should be taken care of with fresh fuel and the filters both at the station, and in your machine. But it definitely does not hurt the octane rating and ability to handle compression/boost/timing. SO:

- What exactly does the ethanol mode on the Pro do (perhaps MH can clarify). Usually on here, it is stated that it richens the mixture, and possibly also decreases the timing....but there seems to be confusion. If accurate, the richer mixture makes sense (need more ethanol than gasoline), but the timing doesn't. If anything, the ethanol fuel should handle MORE timing, and the ethanol mode should not have a performance decrease (perhaps the opposite).

- Am I missing something fundamentally different in 2-stroke and 4-stroke performance?

An article on ethanold blends vs octane:

http://www.resourcesandenergy.nsw.g...le-energy/office-of-biofuels/e10-fuel-economy

 

[inspector01]

I love E85 for high power street cars, and with proper tuning, you can get close to stock fuel economy.

My big concern would be moisture absorption on sleds, and it is possible that it could cause issues with corrrosion or breaking down oil in crankcase, otherwise E85 would be great for H/C or boost.

 

[tuneman]

Ya know, you can lean a 2-stroke out until it seizes up. Ethanol makes engines run lean. Plus, alcohol and oil don't mix well. There may be benefits for a 4-stroke, but not so much for 2-strokes. Bring back leaded! Just my 2 cents.

 

[boondocker97]

Straight ethanol does have higher octane rating than straight gasoline. That is why you can run more compression, timing, boost, etc. The problem with the 10-15% blends you get at the pump is that they use the higher octane to blend up cheaper grade gasoline so you don't get the benefits. Start with 85 octane and blend ethanol to achieve 87 or 91. Makes their dollar go farther instead of having something like a 95 option at the pump.

Ethanol also has a lower BTU output than gasoline. Lower BTU=less power per volume of fuel. Here is a chart from the US Department of Energy showing the difference: http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/fuel_comparison_chart.pdf This means that unless you have an engine that is optimized to run on ethanol, it has to consume more fuel to make the same power.

Ethanol and gasoline have different chemical components so their air/fuel ratios are different to produce a complete burn of the fuel from a chemistry standpoint. We typically run a little richer in sleds to get the most power from an engine. I haven't validated these ratios, but it should give you an idea. Pulled it from a sportbike site:

Stoichiometric Air/Fuel Ratio of Common Fuels
Gasoline(Petrol) = 14.7:1
Methanol = 6.4:1
Compressed Natural Gas(CNG) = 17.45:1
Diesel = 14.5:1
Nitromethane = 1.7:1 (Stuff used in top fuel dragsters)
E10(10% Ethanol, 90% Gasoline) = 14.13:1
E15(15% Ethanol, 85% Gasoline) = 13.8:1
E85(85% Ethanol, 15% Gasoline) = 9.7:1
Ethanol(E100) = 9:1 (Alcohol)

As you can see, the fuel mapping must be richer for an ethanol blended fuel to keep the same AFR. From a straight fuel burn perspective the tune for an E10 blend should be 4% richer. Not sure what the spread is when you factor in two stroke oil and performance tunes. I did run into a guy running a custom supercharger on a quad at the St. Anthony sand dunes one time, and he was running about twice the amount of fuel he would need on 112 or 116 race fuel for the same boost. Not sure if it was E100, E85, or methanol that he was running. He said it was cheaper in the long run for him though. Just couldn't make it very far from camp.

The other thing that burns my behind about ethanol is that along with being government mandated, it is government subsidized to make it cost effective to produce. There are other agricultural issues with it, but I'll keep that out of this discussion.

In short, I don't see the average consumers getting any great benefit from ethanol fuels with the current factory engine configurations and fuel blends we have to work with.

 

[dboivin]

and leave 91 octane gas sit in your float bowl for 3 months....

then leave ethanol mixed gas sit in your float bowl for 3months...

this is 90% of the reputation comes from as the ethanol gas causes absolute havoc on fuel systems in just about any small engined application. I work on these things daily and ethanol blend gas is the anti-christ.

you want to use it in racing motors...great. throwing it at the general joe who lets his lawn mower sit for 2 months...or snowblower sit over summer. absolutely keeping small engine guys in business.

 

[Jaynelson]

Straight ethanol does have higher octane rating than straight gasoline. That is why you can run more compression, timing, boost, etc. The problem with the 10-15% blends you get at the pump is that they use the higher octane to blend up cheaper grade gasoline so you don't get the benefits. Start with 85 octane and blend ethanol to achieve 87 or 91. Makes their dollar go farther instead of having something like a 95 option at the pump.

Was wondering that - wasn't sure if they were taking 91 octane and simply mixing it 90/10 by volume, or taking (like you say) 85 octane and using the ethanol to get the advertised rating. If it's the latter, then that really negates any potential benefit. But I still can't see any reason to decrease timing/power given a rich enough mixture and accurate octane rating.

As for using twice as much E-85 as race gas, that would be out of the ordinary for sure. Seems to be you need about 20-30% more (E-85 than race gas) in the car world, which is often "worth it" for the earlier spool/torque for the turbo guys. Like you say, the fuel itself is much cheaper than C16, for example.

There's no denying the storage issues...I think that's been pretty well documented.

 

[BigBobs Backcountry]

Good News more and more gas stations are offering non-ethanol fuel.

 

[live to ride]

good topic jaynelson, fuel in general in relation to engine failure has had me talking to many fellow sleders and techs for the past 6 years (started with iq dragon). living in atlantic Canada we have NO ethanol fuel, the Polaris engine issues are a common talk when you meet a group of sleders if one or more are on a Polaris, I have yet to meet one who has lost a motor without poor fuel being the culprit ie. gas left in cans for months.
From my research the fuel quality will make the difference.

 

[jerrydecoy]

good topic jaynelson, fuel in general in relation to engine failure has had me talking to many fellow sleders and techs for the past 6 years (started with iq dragon). living in atlantic Canada we have NO ethanol fuel, the Polaris engine issues are a common talk when you meet a group of sleders if one or more are on a Polaris, I have yet to meet one who has lost a motor without poor fuel being the culprit ie. gas left in cans for months.
From my research the fuel quality will make the difference.

I could introduce you to quite a few. While bad fuel would definitely not help matters the iq years of replacing pistons with new that are already out of spec. And poor mapping makes quality of fuel an after thought. "bad fuel is why your motor is in pieces" sounds like something Polaris dreamed up to not cover under warranty! Don't get me wrong... I've rode Polaris since I was a kid and stuck with em' through the rough years but if quality fuel was all the iq's needed many tech's, salesman and service managers could have avoided wanting to hang themselves with dental floss!


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[Reg2view]

For low hours and with race tunes in 4 strokes, run whatever you want and can afford to get.

For mass distribution to the public, easily accessible anywhere, with engine storage periods in weeks or months (this is sleds), 2S or 4S fuel systems, ethanol blends are inferior to 100% gasoline. Separation, corrosion, and distribution challenges, especially in a high moisture environment, will always put ethanol at a flexibility disadvantage. Ethanol's value as an oxygenator for air quality is it's only redeeming product attribute in mainstream applications.

That's leaving cost, product and application, which is where the politics get injected. It simply takes more BTUs to create and distribute a gal of ethanol than the BTUs delivered. Hardening fuel systems for ethanol blends adds additional cost, before you even mention repairs. We would be best off in our corner of the sledding world if ethanol did not exist.

 

[inspector01]

For low hours and with race tunes in 4 strokes, run whatever you want and can afford to get.

For mass distribution to the public, easily accessible anywhere, with engine storage periods in weeks or months (this is sleds), 2S or 4S fuel systems, ethanol blends are inferior to 100% gasoline. Separation, corrosion, and distribution challenges, especially in a high moisture environment, will always put ethanol at a flexibility disadvantage. Ethanol's value as an oxygenator for air quality is it's only redeeming product attribute in mainstream applications.

That's leaving cost, product and application, which is where the politics get injected. It simply takes more BTUs to create and distribute a gal of ethanol than the BTUs delivered. Hardening fuel systems for ethanol blends adds additional cost, before you even mention repairs. We would be best off in our corner of the sledding world if ethanol did not exist.

You neglected to mention that ethanol is effectively race gas, available at the pump, for less than regular gas. That seems like a "redeeming product attribute" for many people. It certainly has its drawbacks, but I've daily driven 200+ hp/ltr street cars on it for years with no issues, so it has plenty of benefits for the right application too.

Also, Ethanol does not take more energy to produce than it generates. Last I heard, it was 1.3 units energy produced for 1 unit used in production in the US, with Brazil has an 8:1 ratio, so it can be done very efficiently.

 

[justpinit]

Here is a website that lists all fuels in North America that are ethanol free.

pure-gas.org

We have been using Shell V-Power all year at the small-engine shop where I work as a tech. Chevron 94 is kind of misleading, since it is ethanol free, but has methanol added to it. I guess they don't have to disclose methanol content. At least in Canada they don't.

This won't really work for sleds because of the volume we consume in a day of fun, but the small engine manufacturers are starting to produce their own hi-octane, pre-mixed (synthetic) fuel to hopefully eliminate the severe fuel issues on handheld 2-stroke engines. Good for 2 years in an unbroken sealed can. The $10 a liter price is a bit steep, but the commercial landscaper's in town (Kelowna BC) are starting to see the benefits of not having fuel related issues constantly with their 2-stroke handheld machines.

 

[boondocker97]

Was wondering that - wasn't sure if they were taking 91 octane and simply mixing it 90/10 by volume, or taking (like you say) 85 octane and using the ethanol to get the advertised rating. If it's the latter, then that really negates any potential benefit. But I still can't see any reason to decrease timing/power given a rich enough mixture and accurate octane rating.

As for using twice as much E-85 as race gas, that would be out of the ordinary for sure. Seems to be you need about 20-30% more (E-85 than race gas) in the car world, which is often "worth it" for the earlier spool/torque for the turbo guys. Like you say, the fuel itself is much cheaper than C16, for example.

There's no denying the storage issues...I think that's been pretty well documented.

Yeah the guy was still in the early tuning stages and running pretty rich in spots with his fuel map. You could hear it bog at times. I'm guessing by the time he got it dialed in it would be closer to 30% more. Even if he was only at 35-40% more at the time, it would seem like twice as much when you are ripping the dunes at WOT.

 

[RMK935VA]

I think that it is a proven fact that ethanol is not good for two stroke motors such as those in our mountain sleds. There is also the subsidy factor mentioned above. However, another problem is that the ethanol component in our currently available blended products is not taxed at the same rate as gasoline. Why does that matter? It means that the gas tax that is collected (state and federal) is less on a gallon of blended fuel. That decreases the money available to Departments of Transportation to operate and maintain the roads and bridges and to make capital improvements. More miles driven but less revenue due to higher efficiency vehicles and the use of ethanol is a death spiral for transportation systems. Eventually, we will be paying a vehicle miles driven fee or tax so it will not be as big of a problem as it is now. At this point, why is it fair that I pay 3 times as much in gas tax in my Tundra as the Prius driver does. The Tundra does not cause 3 times the wear and tear on the road. In fact, on a pounds per square inch on the roadway basis, there is little difference at all due to the difference in tire contact patch size. Ethanol is a money grab by the agricultural lobby. We don't need it and we don't want it. It also has questionable air pollution gains. It causes more air pollution problems than it solves which is why they don't sell it in Southern California.

 

[t-revzr]

I ran e85 in my evo back in the day and it was a huge improvement over 91 octane. E85 only benefits you tho if your running boost. There's no benefit in a non boosted car, sled etc... Another thing is the 91 octane you always get still may not be good. Here in Minnesota 91 from holiday or SA gas stations is garbage. We did a test with a friends evo on the dyno ran holiday and sa gas and she made 330 awhp. We then emptied the fuel put in bp 91 and the car had less knock so thus we could turn up the boost and add more timing to the car. It then made 366 awhp because it was a better quality of 91. I know if I have a choice I will always run bp or shell 91, but when your out in the middle of nowhere you really have no choice.

 

[Reg2view]

You neglected to mention that ethanol is effectively race gas, available at the pump, for less than regular gas. That seems like a "redeeming product attribute" for many people. It certainly has its drawbacks, but I've daily driven 200+ hp/ltr street cars on it for years with no issues, so it has plenty of benefits for the right application too.

Also, Ethanol does not take more energy to produce than it generates. Last I heard, it was 1.3 units energy produced for 1 unit used in production in the US, with Brazil has an 8:1 ratio, so it can be done very efficiently.

Thanks. For serious street and track car HP, and, as I know some here are also deeply experienced with, both street and race bikes (drag and AMA road racing), their are clear exceptions and personal value. The context I was projecting was sledding and joe average at the pump. We will agree to disagree on BTUs input to BTUs output at the pump in the US (stalk to nozzle) at this point in the evolution of ethanol production and distribution.

 

[sledcaddie]

Ethanol in the USA

So, is ethanol only available in the USA? Sounds like Canada & Alaska don't have it? That makes it appear that the midwest (USA) corn growers' lobbyists are the ones pushing ethanol mandates. If it wasn't for government subsidies, ethanol would be 10-15 cents more than non-ethanol gasoline. If one does'nt believe that ethanol has detrimental effects on engines, you need only to walk into any auto parts store to see an entire wall of products that counter the ill-effects of ethanol. As the earlier posting of a Stihl photo shows, most manufacturers of small engines recommend avoiding the use of ethanol.

 

[proride155]

I always get a good laugh when I hear people say how ethanol tears up small 2 strokes. I work for a company that has everything from weedeaters to hedgetrimmers, leaf blowers, trimmers, pole saws, chainsaws. This equiptment has never seen ethanol fuel and guess what we have carb and carb related failures all the time. Go figure...

 

['77 Rider]

So, is ethanol only available in the USA? Sounds like Canada & Alaska don't have it? That makes it appear that the midwest (USA) corn growers' lobbyists are the ones pushing ethanol mandates. If it wasn't for government subsidies, ethanol would be 10-15 cents more than non-ethanol gasoline. If one does'nt believe that ethanol has detrimental effects on engines, you need only to walk into any auto parts store to see an entire wall of products that counter the ill-effects of ethanol. As the earlier posting of a Stihl photo shows, most manufacturers of small engines recommend avoiding the use of ethanol.

All our fuel here is ethanol blended up to 10%. Shell V-power is the only one available without ethanol. The E85 stuff is only available in a few locations out east in Ontario (last time I looked). I have seen a couple other stations claim to have no ethanol in their 91 octane stuff but there is alway a disclaimer sticker on the pump that says "When available".

 

[geo]

In my sled I try to use low eth. Mostly because I like oil to mix easily and get to as many spots as it can. I check it by pouring a 1/2 liter into a canning jar, add an ounce of oil, shake and set it down to observe latter. If it starts any separation I don't use that fuel. That's with old fashioned mineral oil.

Some eth is okay to me (haven't found any fuel around here without eth yet, no matter what it says on the pump) cause it saves me throwing in some iso but you have less BTU's so less power. Most octane ratings are close so I set my CR to what I can get at the pump and that is all good. Blend of the brand is more important to me.
I'm NA and hairdryerless. My motor (like any NA motor) has a max air volume controlled by the a few variables on a 2 stroke and natural pressure. So with a fixed air volume (so to speak) and a needed ratio, the last thing to find more power is the construction of the fuel.

If you want to feel a very noticable difference in fuel construction (this is my biggest b**ch about fuel today compared to the distant past) buy a can of low octane race fuel and compare it power wise to any pump fuel. Eth discussions over shadow the other ways fuel suppliers save money IMO.
Pour in HP.