Diesal vs gas

Beels · Jan 20, 2010

CATillak said:
BEELs, might i ask if your truck pops engine lights constantly? Now has evap system codes and the MAF codes again. I dont at all doubt that this particular 8.1 and 3 customers who come through with the same problems are lemons. Not al ltrucks are created equal i guess. They are all within the 02-04 range BTW.

Never had the check engine light. The only problem I ever had was one morning it wouldn't shift out of 1st gear. (The story of the previous evening is a gooder, but for another thread...) Took it to the dealer and it ended up being a bad ground on the TCM for the Allison.

CATillak · Jan 20, 2010

Ill just go with it being a lemon..

Should go too say, so i dont sound biased, the gassers are better trucks till we drop money into our diesels. Best way i can put the diesel vs gas debate.

Dogmeat · Jan 20, 2010

Ford428CJ said:
I did post it but you failed to see it. "Engine Efficiency"

Yeah, but all you said was "diesel motors are way more effecient than gasoline motors" and when I posted numbers that made sense to back up my claim of ~%4 you told me I was wrong then did nothing to prove that was incorrect other than tell me to go read the same diesel magazines that I'm saying are exaggerating things in the first place

Dogmeat · Jan 20, 2010

Ford428CJ said:
Thanks!

One more thing I needed to add, too the above post..... If your hauling 7,000 to 10,000lbs all the time. Lets say 10,000lbs. You would be luck if that gas engine lived to be 80,000miles old! It would be wore out! Exhaust valves, seats and guides would be shot! Gas makes alot of egt unlike a diesel. That's why you see diesels live for 500,000 miles or more! Depending if they are treated good and have the proper maintenance done. Like they should with any engine (Gas or Diesel).

As for price of Diesel fuel creeping up. Its winter time and a lot of people still heat there homes with Stove oil (Diesel). So the demand goes up in winter time.

You keep proving what I've been saying and you don't even realize it

I've said at least 20 times in this thread that condition is the ONLY time you are going to see any cost advantage to owning a diesel over a gas motor.

Ford428CJ · Jan 20, 2010

Dogmeat said:
You keep proving what I've been saying and you don't even realize it

I've said at least 20 times in this thread that condition is the ONLY time you are going to see any cost advantage to owning a diesel over a gas motor.

YOU have forgot what our debate was about!!!! Engine Efficiency!!!! Get it right!!! NOT WHAT IT COST TO MAINTAIN IT!!!!

Ford428CJ · Jan 20, 2010

w8up4me said:
Dont get me wrong, I love my diesels for pulling my equipment around that makes me money!!! Most of my trucks stay with us up to 80,000 to 100,000 miles. I have a full time mechanic and very nice shop for him to maintain the vehicles and equipment. He will not even let me keep any truck past the factory warranty. Maintenance on any vehicle is a snap. Repairs on the newer diesels are a *****!!!

Example as follows: 6.0 powerstroke injector replacement. First try to figure out which injector is bad. (that is a joke in itself) Lucky for me I have a $1,500.00 snap-on scanner with a $1,000.00 a year software upgrade. Takes me 10 minutes to find the bad injector. Lucky me!!! It was the left side of the engine, only 3 hours labor time to remove and replace. If it was the right side add another 1.5 hours to that time. After new parts (not used from a junkyard) I can change an injector out for about $300.00 parts only...no labor counted in. Not bad, like I (or my mechanic) had nothing better to do. Dealer cost on that repair $600 to $800. Had to do this 2x at 112,000 miles and 126,000 miles....sold it 2 weeks later to gung ho snowmobiler. He has 155k on it and has had no problems...yet!!!

I am not bashing Ford here, loved the truck, just learned the hard way...sell at 100k.

Every Diesel I have had each made multiple trips to the dealership under warranty. Most of it minor computer issues and a random radiator replacement. Gelling issues, and a computer problem with my duramax, still a pain when you need to use them however.

I still use diesels in my trucks 15,000 lbs and up. But if I were buying a pick-up to tow a 4 place enclosed sled trailer and that is about all. Go with a gas! If you need more power...think like a snowmobiler....add a vortec supercharger with 6psi for $5,000.00 (Like it cost for a sled...go figure??!!!) viola....450 hp and about the same for tourqe. You still come out about 5 grand cheaper than a diesel, and your pick up will scoot the quarter mile a bit faster than most smokey diesels.

I could go on for hours about my real life experiances with diesels and gas, but it is a personal decision, buy what you like. Been there, done that, Financially, you can not beat a gas pick-up.

That is your experience and thats great! For me a Diesel has worked out and have 70,000miles on mine without any issues. Good for me and not so good for you. The only thing I have done is change oil, filters and fill it up with diesel. BUT everyone's experience is different. I have known guys to have really good luck (put 400,000 miles on a diesel) and others not so good. One half dozen to another. JMHO

Ford428CJ · Jan 20, 2010

Dogmeat said:
Yeah, but all you said was "diesel motors are way more effecient than gasoline motors" and when I posted numbers that made sense to back up my claim of ~%4 you told me I was wrong then did nothing to prove that was incorrect other than tell me to go read the same diesel magazines that I'm saying are exaggerating things in the first place

Try 30%-40% more fuel efficient with a diesel (Same CI Gas Vs. Same CI Diesel)! NOT what it cost to run one. You can't nor will you ever grasp BTU's of heat or thermodynamics of an engine. And you dont care too. READ UP AND LEARN HOW,WHAT and WHY they work the way that they do! If you want call me and we will debate engine efficiency....Here's my number 541-882-5177

Dogmeat · Jan 20, 2010

Ford428CJ said:
Try 30%-40% more fuel efficient with a diesel (Same CI Gas Vs. Same CI Diesel)! NOT what it cost to run one. You can't nor will you ever grasp BTU's of heat or thermodynamics of an engine. And you dont care too. READ UP AND LEARN HOW,WHAT and WHY they work the way that they do! If you want call me and we will debate engine efficiency....Here's my number 541-882-5177

Dude: PROVE HOW AND WHY A DIESEL MOTOR IS %30-40 MORE EFFECIENT THAN A GASOLINE MOTOR. I don't want to see "Because dieseldump magazine said so!!!" I want you to prove it with actual math and engineering DATA.

That number is wildley exaggerated. If you wanted to claim %10 then offer even some conceptual numbers I'd be more forgiving here .... Hell man the links you even posted if you go through them don't back up that claim.

Also, spend 4 or 5 years getting a mechanical engineering degree (golly gee, we might have studied a little thermo in there

), then spend a few years analyzing fleet truck data, and just to top it off, spend a few years designing gas plants (wow no thermo there), optimizing operation of cat 3600 series motors (diesel motors that were converted to natural gas service) that operate large natural gas compressors, etc ....

Trust me man, I have a pretty good understanding of this.

I want you to PROVE your claims. Don't make more claims and claim making that claim is proving another claim you made, I want you to show me the math and make me believe you. I've been asking diesel owners to do this for nearly 10 years now and so far the condition you even agreed with me on is the only one that makes them more effecient. Again, who cares how "effecient" the motor is if it costs you 3 times as much to run it? Is the additional %20 range you get worth the 3x additional cost? Maybe if you're compulsivley impatient, I dunno

If diesel motors are %30-40 more effecient than gasoline motors are then we sure would have never ditched entire fleets of them because that would have totally offset any additional operating costs. It makes absolutley *****ZERO**** sense to have this argument and not base it on cost, unless all you wanna do is argue horsepower numbers. Seriously.

Like I said, I've been studying this and following this for _YEARS_ now. I know what I'm talking about here.

Look I am not trying to be a dick here. Really, I really am not ... but like I said, I've studied this over and over and over and there are an awful lot of gaping misconceptions about diesel motors out there .... the primary one of concern that just boggles my mind is that it's somehow cheaper to own a diesel than a gas motor .... that one just blows my mind. I never said that a diesel motor wasn't more effecient than a gas motor, but c'mon %30-40 is absolutley rediculous ....

Ford428CJ · Jan 20, 2010

Dogmeat said:
Dude: PROVE HOW AND WHY A DIESEL MOTOR IS %30-40 MORE EFFECIENT THAN A GASOLINE MOTOR. I don't want to see "Because dieseldump magazine said so!!!" I want you to prove it with actual math and engineering DATA.

That number is wildley exaggerated. If you wanted to claim %10 then offer even some conceptual numbers I'd be more forgiving here .... Hell man the links you even posted if you go through them don't back up that claim.

Also, spend 4 or 5 years getting a mechanical engineering degree (golly gee, we might have studied a little thermo in there ), then spend a few years analyzing fleet truck data, and just to top it off, spend a few years designing gas plants (wow no thermo there), optimizing operation of cat 3600 series motors (diesel motors that were converted to natural gas service) that operate large natural gas compressors, etc ....

Trust me man, I have a pretty good understanding of this. But the way no its not

I want you to PROVE your claims. Don't make more claims and claim making that claim is proving another claim you made, I want you to show me the math and make me believe you. I've been asking diesel owners to do this for nearly 10 years now and so far the condition you even agreed with me on is the only one that makes them more effecient. Again, who cares how "effecient" the motor is if it costs you 3 times as much to run it? Is the additional %20 range you get worth the 3x additional cost? Maybe if you're compulsivley impatient, I dunno

If diesel motors are %30-40 more effecient than gasoline motors are then we sure would have never ditched entire fleets of them because that would have totally offset any additional operating costs. It makes absolutley *****ZERO**** sense to have this argument and not base it on cost, unless all you wanna do is argue horsepower numbers. Seriously.

Like I said, I've been studying this and following this for _YEARS_ now. I know what I'm talking about here.

Look I am not trying to be a dick here. Really, I really am not ... but like I said, I've studied this over and over and over and there are an awful lot of gaping misconceptions about diesel motors out there .... the primary one of concern that just boggles my mind is that it's somehow cheaper to own a diesel than a gas motor .... that one just blows my mind. I never said that a diesel motor wasn't more effecient than a gas motor, but c'mon %30-40 is absolutley rediculous ....

I'm not some F*ck'n engineer with a degree and I'm not some hillbilly like you think. I tried to explain it (higher C/R, Heating the air and 15% denser fuel and so on)and you cant see it.....That's fine. It sounds like you have it all figured out! Good for you. Have a nice day...

Dogmeat · Jan 20, 2010

Ford428CJ said:
I'm not some F*ck'n engineer with a degree and I'm not some hillbilly like you think. I tried to explain it (higher C/R, Heating the air and 15% denser fuel and so on)and you cant see it.....That's fine. It sounds like you have it all figured out! Good for you. Have a nice day...

well, I do apologize though, I really don't mean to be crass. I really don't ...

Sorry if I came off as being that way ....

Ford428CJ · Jan 20, 2010

Dogmeat said:
well, I do apologize though, I really don't mean to be crass. I really don't ...

Sorry if I came off as being that way ....

I apologize myself, I'm not having a good day to top it off! Not a good excuse at all.... Apology excepted. Beer on me! :beer;

CATillak · Jan 20, 2010

Weird..

Nice BROMANCE that jsut happend. haha

Maybe the debate should be "Who bought their truck with the right VIN# that has zero problems throughout its life because it was built better".

I dont even think whoever started this thread still posts on it...

flatfoot · Jan 21, 2010

Wow, I think the poor guys post got hijacked. I had to go back to the beginning to see what the hell i wanted to chime in about...lol. I drive and own only diesels, 1 '08 duramax and 1 07 peterbilt with a 550 Cat. I mainly snowmobile Cooke City. Only cold problem ever encountered was a light left on and drained batteries. $350 to Rick, problem solved! Fuel additives...anyone with a dpf needs to be extremely careful about fuel additives. There are only a couple that are approved for use with dpf engines, non approved additives will screw your dpf and your warranty. Change fuel filters in Dec. and May. Run synthetic oil. I prefer rotella 5/40 synthetic because it does the best in my Cat which has a bypass filter system and gets oil analysis every 15,000 miles. (currently 87,000 miles on my oil). I have tried other synthetics, the rotella just holds up better. I also use it in my duramax for that reason. A missed benefit of the synthetic in the diesel is mpg increase. 3.2 mpg increase in the duramax, .3mpg in the cat.

Oh, and one other comment...If diesels weren't more efficient and economical to operate the freight in this country would be moved by gasoline powered trucks, trains, and airplanes. Just my .02

w8up4me · Jan 21, 2010

I hear you on the hi-jacking thing!!!! I was trying to save the guy some headaches in buying a diesel.....not a diesel hater, just sick of political regulations that keep hitting you poor diesel guys. Good luck with the whole urea thing!!! As far as I know International is the only ones with a diesel that will pass emmisions without urea.

Just as every one has stated in the posts above:
Diesels.....if you do not mind a little wrenching, filters 2x a year, expensive oil changes, diesel #1 or #2, does this gas station have #1 diesel, programmers, egt deletes, codes showing up, diesel costing more...22 cents different here today in MN, plugging it in, what is the right additive for your specific brand in the winter, Let me know when to stop here fellas.....

Gas: Turn the key and drive, you will be snowmobiling way before the diesel guys because they do not mind the hassels and wrenching.

Hope he is still reading this!!!

w4cstriker · Jan 21, 2010

i have a 2009 duramax plain stock oil changes run me at the dealer about $60 but I can run it 6 to 8 thousand miles between oil changes my 2007 5.3 gas cost me around $30 to 39 to change the oil 3 to up to 5 thousand miles when cpu would let me know.mpg are better in duramax pulling a load empty they are close in mpg of course differnce in power. Just my 2 cents p.s dont add any additives to fuel ,station add stuff in the winter fill it and drive

Snorider · Jan 22, 2010

Beels said:
I'm not sure either. I traded my '01 with around 175K on it and the only leaks that truck ever had were those chitty GM trans cooler lines.

As for oil consumption, big whoop. Big blocks use oil, period. I originally ran Castrol Synthetic 5w30 in it and was going through a quart every 1500 miles. Switched to a semi-synthetic 5w30 and that dropped to nearly half of that.

Maybe I got a good one, or changed my fuel filter often enough, or didn't constantly run my fuel tank low, but my fuel pump was still original.

i see my 8.1 must be an exception, i have orginal tranny lines, no leaks and 200k and it runs just as good and pulls just as hard as it did 150k ago. lol i loved the comment that everything would be worn out in 50k miles from pulling heavy loads with a gas motor. oh yea factory fuel pump is still ticking away.

now the tans lines on my dmax was another story, but i fixed those for good. lol

Beels · Jan 27, 2010

Snorider said:
i see my 8.1 must be an exception, i have orginal tranny lines, no leaks and 200k and it runs just as good and pulls just as hard as it did 150k ago. lol i loved the comment that everything would be worn out in 50k miles from pulling heavy loads with a gas motor. oh yea factory fuel pump is still ticking away.

now the tans lines on my dmax was another story, but i fixed those for good. lol

I notice you're in Washington and probably don't see -30 or -40 temps, so that would explain why your tranny lines held up. I've heard it through the grapevine that GM's tranny line issues are very regional and only occur in areas that experience cold weather for extended periods of time.

REKXP · Feb 5, 2010

My daily driver is a 2001 Dodge with the Cummins. It is expensive to use as a daily driver if you look at the upfront cost/replacement cost as compared to a gas rig. I also own a Toyota truck that I use for hunting, wood getting, etc. I have owned numerous vehicles all being gassers other than the Dodge. I don't know crap about efficiencies between the two other than that a gas motor and diesel motor of about the same power and torque will not get the same fuel mileage when stressed. I am not being biased here at all. The diesel will get better fuel mileage when driven with a load. My Dodge has 90 horsepower injectors (additional hp), 4" exhaust, Predator Stage 3 chip, cold air intake, Air Dog fuel pump, and maybe a few other additions. Maybe $2500 to $3000 worth of additions. Definitely more power but not just for my ego. I tried to do the upgrades for fuel economy as well. I don't use the chip much for towing as I don't like the way it makes it shift.

Towing a 3500 lb trailer with four sleds, four adult males, 45 gallons of gas, all our gear, beer, etc. (app. 7000=8000lbs) I got 14.2 miles to the gallon for a trip up to Priest Lake. I know people fudge the numbers as everyone I know gets wayyyyy better mileage than I do but that is what I got. 60 to 70 mph for the most part. A little showing off on the pass (82 mph) but mild for the most part. Unloaded on the highway I get 18 pretty consistently. Best was 20.3 mpg driving through Montana at 65. Not a lot different than a gas motor when empty but a lot different when fully loaded.

Like I said it is my daily driver. To get a different daily driver I would have to get another rig. I don't really want another vehicle so that is what I use. When I bought the Dodge diesel was .10 to .20 cheaper a gallon than gasoline. I used the truck as a work truck for towing my tool trailer and occasionally hauling toys. I have almost 200k in miles on it now and no problems other than the stock lift pump and the track bar. When I have to do it all over again I will get another diesel. Might be a Dodge or might not. I think all things considered the diesel is the way to go.

Just my .02 worth.

Dogmeat · Feb 5, 2010

Beels said:
I notice you're in Washington and probably don't see -30 or -40 temps, so that would explain why your tranny lines held up. I've heard it through the grapevine that GM's tranny line issues are very regional and only occur in areas that experience cold weather for extended periods of time.

It isn't uncommon for us to hit 30 below here in the Uintah basin during the dead of winter .... My truck wasn't garaged until 3 months ago either .... Never had a problem with my transmission at all, but I'd usually let the truck warm up 20 minutes before I drove it in the winter as well.

vdo1948 · Feb 5, 2010

highmark18 said:
Rotella 5-40 synthetic. I used to run the Rotella 15-40, now I run the 5-40 synthetic year around. The difference is unbeliveable when it gets below zero. Turns over so much faster, starts easier, much nicer on things. Yeah it costs more, but I run longer between changes.

^^^ x 2

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