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Important YAMAHA EXITS SNOWMOBILE MARKET
- Thread starter christopher
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Read that about 30 minutes ago. Sad day for the industry. I think Yamaha lost its way with a four stroke only lineup, and lost its identity with Cat. Cat makes a good product, but coloring it blue and putting Yamaha on the side of it doesn't make it a Yamaha. Sorry to see them go.
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Yami absolutely made the most bullet proof engines in our industry.
Crying shame they didn't chose to invest all of their talent into making a LIGHTWEIGHT 4 Stroke.
G
You mean lightweight two stroke?
I Absolutely believe they had the know how to build a epa compliant 2 stroke. I get the snowmobile industry is shrinking, they just decided they had more profitable areas outside of snowmobiling. The final three (four if you consider Lynx a stand alone) will pick up the market share, what little was left. But all will have to follow the big three auto manufacturers if they want to survive. All are building less expensive trucks because not many can afford the high end stuff. Snowmobiles will be no different. The middle class has less money to spend thanks to inflation. Have you looked at a Polaris Pro R side x side? 40k, are you kidding me?? I paid less than that for my wife's top of the line SUV. Something has to give.
Have you read this article? Some people are not going to stop buying "toys." Google this:
Baby boomers are going to save the economy as they spend down their $75 trillion nest egg while millennials struggle with student debt.
NOPE
I absolutely LOVED all of my Nytros.
The engines really were BULLET PROOF.
Aspirated, Turboed and Supercharged, I simply NEVER had engine issues.
The only drawback was MASSIVE WEIGHT.
And Yami HAD the technology to reduce the 4 stroke weight ALOT if they wanted to.
People will always spend money on toys. But not all will always spend money on toys.
It’s funny how fast things change these days. Wasn’t really that long ago the first production mtn sled was built and now things are on the decline. Sad to see Yamaha go…glad I found a low mile mtx. Maybe they will offer a 25 mtx for the guys that enjoy riding them.
A
As i se it, Arcticat will release their new engine ctec3 next year. Most likely discontinueing ctec2. With that yamaha needed to develope their own 2 stroke or a chassi that their 4 stroke fits into.. decission made that they cant do that while making a big enough profit and the industry is full with 3 manufacturers.. Probably the right buissness call but sucks for the consumer.
I think you nailed it
S
I think i called this happening like 4 years ago... you could see it coming a mile away, its not a good thing for anyone, dealers, customers, compition, innovation it is a sad day. unfortunately the firm hand they took agenst 2 strokes it was worth more to them to give up making them than admitting the 4 stroke engine is unwanted in the sled world, the trend is happening in the dirtbike world as well, more and more are going back to two strokes including myself, and as ktm/huskey is stealing huge market shares from the jap brands and as previously lesser known brands like gas gas, beta, sherco and tm your starting to see them regularly at the parking lots where as before you were luckey to see them once a year, mostly all due to the fact of offering a 2 stroke competitive platform. The only thing keeping the Japanese brands in the game is supercross. And you can pretty much count suzuki out at this point... itll be interesting too see what happens in the next 5- 10 years in the bike world.
The writing's been on the wall for years. I really got going in snowmobiling around five years ago, and even back then there wasn't much promise for Yamaha. It's too bad, because they contributed a lot to snowmobiling, and I think the Phazer is easily one of the most iconic sleds ever made. I don't know that going to 4-stroke only was a mistake in and of itself; it seems more of the problem was that they thought they could generate sales with power alone and get away with a heavy, outmoded chassis. They definitely could have made a 2-stroke as good as any of the remaining three, and they also could have made a 4-stroke that wasn't that much heavier. In fact, I'd bet they could pretty easily build a world-beating engine, but the rest of the sled is a big problem.
Unfortunately, this decision makes sense. To make a lighter 4-stroke, or a new 2-stroke, and a chassis to go with it, would cost many millions of dollars. Add to that, they'd probably have to hire most of the people who design it; I doubt they have much, if anything left of their snowmobile design team (let alone a group that's savvy to mountain riding). Finally, if they could pull that rabbit out of the hat, it's not a growing market; hard to pay off a big R&D investment without big sales potential. I think there is an opening for something lighter, simpler, and (yes) less powerful and therefore less expensive - that's the only way I see growing sales in these conditions. But there too, Yammi isn't in a great position to bring that about. Anyway, farewell Yamaha. It was good to (kind of) know you.
Unfortunately, this decision makes sense. To make a lighter 4-stroke, or a new 2-stroke, and a chassis to go with it, would cost many millions of dollars. Add to that, they'd probably have to hire most of the people who design it; I doubt they have much, if anything left of their snowmobile design team (let alone a group that's savvy to mountain riding). Finally, if they could pull that rabbit out of the hat, it's not a growing market; hard to pay off a big R&D investment without big sales potential. I think there is an opening for something lighter, simpler, and (yes) less powerful and therefore less expensive - that's the only way I see growing sales in these conditions. But there too, Yammi isn't in a great position to bring that about. Anyway, farewell Yamaha. It was good to (kind of) know you.
I know it's not the same for some but Yamaha will continue to have a presence in the snowbike world. They have probably sold more bikes in the west for snowbike kits than they did mountain snowmobiles. Basically zero R&D and no marketing cost put into that market either.
Sad to see, but not totally unexpected either.
They sold a a lot of 4 stroke sleds particularly in the mid-west (you see them all over there). However for the mountain market, it would have required a completely new and much lighter 4 stroke engine to be competitive. If you think about it, they have been using basically the same engine platforms for many years, while the 2 stroke market has seen new engines arrive from at least one of the other 3 manufactures every few years.
To develop an all new lighter 4 stroke engine would have required millions of dollars and I believe that Yamaha could have successfully done that had they chose to. Had the snowmobile market been expanding at a greater rate they may well have done so.
The good news for current owners of Yamaha sleds, is that it sounds like Yamaha will continue to offer parts for existing sleds. This makes sense as Yamaha is also in the parts business. Additionally what they don't offer, hopefully the aftermarket will make up the difference.
They sold a a lot of 4 stroke sleds particularly in the mid-west (you see them all over there). However for the mountain market, it would have required a completely new and much lighter 4 stroke engine to be competitive. If you think about it, they have been using basically the same engine platforms for many years, while the 2 stroke market has seen new engines arrive from at least one of the other 3 manufactures every few years.
To develop an all new lighter 4 stroke engine would have required millions of dollars and I believe that Yamaha could have successfully done that had they chose to. Had the snowmobile market been expanding at a greater rate they may well have done so.
The good news for current owners of Yamaha sleds, is that it sounds like Yamaha will continue to offer parts for existing sleds. This makes sense as Yamaha is also in the parts business. Additionally what they don't offer, hopefully the aftermarket will make up the difference.
Will not say I predicted this as such, byt have been wondering how long we would keep 5 big brands.. And with the Cat/Yamaha joint venture thing, I think a lot of us was wondering who would fold.
Also thinking about the turbo 2-strokes; could Yamaha have been on the fence and Doo/Pol tipping them? Pretty easy and safe to boost a yammie and at least get power at altitude, but with factory turbo 2-strokes..
Land, noise, emissions, low snow, costs. I fear there are powerful forces against the industry. And to few voters enjoying the sport to stall them. Democracy..
Hate to see it happening!
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Also thinking about the turbo 2-strokes; could Yamaha have been on the fence and Doo/Pol tipping them? Pretty easy and safe to boost a yammie and at least get power at altitude, but with factory turbo 2-strokes..
Land, noise, emissions, low snow, costs. I fear there are powerful forces against the industry. And to few voters enjoying the sport to stall them. Democracy..
Hate to see it happening!
Sent fra min SM-A715F via Tapatalk
Too bad they didnt just buy into the catalyst, they were already using cats motors in their MM. Their skis are still better than Cat's and the Mountain Max is somewhat legendary name.... hey, who says they cantl still make one, theres still one more year left in north america.
Id really want one if they did it, last year of the mountain max, in a catalyst plat! would be sweet in the garage next to an early 2000s version.
Id really want one if they did it, last year of the mountain max, in a catalyst plat! would be sweet in the garage next to an early 2000s version.
I don't believe they had the technology to do it or they would have done. Weight and handling were the big killers.
I don't know, I suspect the technology exists; the question is, how exotic such an engine would have to be, and if it'd be competitive with a similar effort on a two-stroke. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, Yamaha never built a ground-up four-stroke snowmobile engine, and that may have been as much of a difference as two vs four-stroke. I'm sure Yamaha knew at least ten years ago that they had a problem, but hoped to band-aid it with more power. Power is nice, but past a certain point, weight is more important. Ultimately, the problem for Yamaha isn't that they can't make a competitive engine (be it two or four stroke), it's the size of the market. Maybe four manufacturers could eek out a living if they ran tightly enough, but that's a big if, and one big miss could mean crippling losses for years. Even with just three serious players I don't think there's much margin for error. My hope is that things will stabilize and Poo, Doo, and Cat will be profitable and able to keep the competitive fire going.
I've been a Yamaha faithful from the time I could spend my own money on one, so this was a sad thing to see. Their engines make loads of power under boost, and they seemed to make it work longer than anyone else. The RX-1 came out in the early 2000s, so 20+ years of four strokes in a market of consumers who chase light weight parts like crack addicts is still something to be proud of. My Nytro ran fantastic and my Viper has been turn key since I picked it up in 2015 - you really can't ask for more than that. I want to ride my sled, and I feel for those who are getting another stop-ride order that we keep seeing from other manufactures. I can say that Yamaha never let me down from a reliability standpoint and the only time I was ever towed home was on my Nytro when a coolant line on the boondocker kit split open - but that was 100% NOT Yamaha's fault.
All of that being said, I did get a '23 Mountain Max this last year and even if it is blue, it is still a Cat under all the plastic. My viper will no doubt put it to shame on a straight up hill climb (boosted 162 versus a N/A 153) but the 2 stroke is just a RIOT to ride. I wish they would have brought back a light weight triple 2 stroke, there are so many cool things they could have done there, not to mention that there is nothing on the snow that sounds like the crackle from a piped triple! It would have still been heavier than the other sleds but could have closed that gap significantly.
All of that being said, I did get a '23 Mountain Max this last year and even if it is blue, it is still a Cat under all the plastic. My viper will no doubt put it to shame on a straight up hill climb (boosted 162 versus a N/A 153) but the 2 stroke is just a RIOT to ride. I wish they would have brought back a light weight triple 2 stroke, there are so many cool things they could have done there, not to mention that there is nothing on the snow that sounds like the crackle from a piped triple! It would have still been heavier than the other sleds but could have closed that gap significantly.
