Who doesn't use avalanche gear.

[Scott]

Not on the hills.
Stayed on the flats.
Hit, buried, lucky to be alive.

http://m.jhnewsandguide.com/news/to...596-4321-525a-8938-8fc50d175bf6.html?mode=jqm

 

[WhiskeyTee]

Not on the hills.
Stayed on the flats.
Hit, buried, lucky to be alive.

http://m.jhnewsandguide.com/news/to...596-4321-525a-8938-8fc50d175bf6.html?mode=jqm

WOW! Kinda skews the whole "I stay away from the slopes" mentality huh!

 

[Scott]

WOW! Kinda skews the whole "I stay away from the slopes" mentality huh!

It should make a person think, eh.

 

[cmxuser]

I'm pretty sure I could look around the Intertube and find statistics related to deaths by hitting objects also ( trees, rocks, cars etc...... ). Does that mean your going to champion for seatbelts and airbags next? Aww but I digress, you know what's best for everyone, everyone get ready for seatbelt and airbags on your sleds. Jk jk just joking around with ya we all know that ain't going to happen.:face-icon-small-con:face-icon-small-sho

 

[dootime3]

Not on the hills.
Stayed on the flats.
Hit, buried, lucky to be alive.

http://m.jhnewsandguide.com/news/to...596-4321-525a-8938-8fc50d175bf6.html?mode=jqm

Its stuff like this that got me thinking about this topic in the first place.

I've watched more avalanche videos in the last week than I can count. I had watched a few of em 5 years ago when we got started mountain riding. I understood the 30-45 degree slope and the runout zone back than. What always worried me was if we hit the mountains on a trip with high avy warnings what would we do. We are the type with our jobs we have to schedule a trip a couple weeks in advance and hope for the best. Of course 1st trip ever we hit epic snow and been looking for the same ever since. Last 2 years we did not hit it right, snow was hard packed when we got there. So last 2 years avy danger was low when out there. I'm sure a lot of you that are local only go when there is fresh. So avy danger is probably gonna be higher most times when you are out there. That being said I don't want to get caught out there sometime with high avy warnings and we are not prepared.
Plus we talked about expanding our riding areas to different places. And being in a different terrain that you don't know it would be nice to have a little piece of mind.

I also learned from this that 25% that die in a avalanche die from trauma, not suffocation. That statistic alone scares me enough to try and stay away from avy zones beacon or not. So I'm gonna try to get everyone in my group to wear one, but if they don't its not gonna keep me from riding with my group.





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[Mafesto]

What always worried me was if we hit the mountains on a trip with high avy warnings what would we do. We are the type with our jobs we have to schedule a trip a couple weeks in advance and hope for the best.
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That is what disappoints me when people on here say "What in the hell were they doing out in those conditions?"


Not riding because the snow is too good?
That's like not drinking because the beer is too cold!
Most years I only get one trip.
We are out there for 3 days, and we are riding for 3 days. End of story.

 

[cmxuser]

Here's a little lite reading for you guys. Keep in mind this is 38 people in North America in all snow sports not just snowmobiling. With this in mind your more likely to be in a car crash on the way to where your going. Now don't get all bent out of shape, just trying to stop the panic effect, are they good "yes". Are you a social ingrate if you don't have one "no".
Here ya go:Statics
On average, 38 people die from avalanches in North America every year and 185 people worldwide. In North America, roughly one-third of those deaths are a result of trauma and the other two-thirds are a result of asphyxiation. Wearing an avalanche beacon doesn't guarantee survival in an avalanche and the fact that you are wearing one should not persuade you to ski, snowboard, or snowmobile in a way you otherwise wouldn't.

One third of them 38 people die from trauma, and I like the last part: wearing one should not persuade you to ski, snowboard, or snowmobile in a way you otherwise wouldnt. That right there kind of tells me you need to make responsible decisions and once again " can bad stuff happen" yes, it happens every day in spite of all the safety prep.

 

[NorthMNSledder]

Here's a little lite reading for you guys. Keep in mind this is 38 people in North America in all snow sports not just snowmobiling. With this in mind your more likely to be in a car crash on the way to where your going. Now don't get all bent out of shape, just trying to stop the panic effect, are they good "yes". Are you a social ingrate if you don't have one "no".
Here ya go:Statics
On average, 38 people die from avalanches in North America every year and 185 people worldwide. In North America, roughly one-third of those deaths are a result of trauma and the other two-thirds are a result of asphyxiation. Wearing an avalanche beacon doesn't guarantee survival in an avalanche and the fact that you are wearing one should not persuade you to ski, snowboard, or snowmobile in a way you otherwise wouldn't.

One third of them 38 people die from trauma, and I like the last part: wearing one should not persuade you to ski, snowboard, or snowmobile in a way you otherwise wouldnt. That right there kind of tells me you need to make responsible decisions and once again " can bad stuff happen" yes, it happens every day in spite of all the safety prep.

I think your missing our point here. So on average 38 people die in avalanches each year. But how many were in them? 40? 100? 500? We really have no idea as I bet a lot go unreported. So how many more people would have died had every person that was in an avalanche last year died?

Now for a round number lets say 100 people were in avalanches last year in North America (which I bet is on the low side). So if 38 people died that means that 62 people lived. Now why did they live, that's what matters to me. I bet some stayed on top so they would have been easily found no matter what. I bet some were pulled out from their group finding them using beacons, shovels and probes. I bet some had an avalanche bag and that saved them. That's the stats I would love to see as that would really put all of this into perspective. The people that lived, why did they live?

 

[Scott]

http://www.tetongravity.com/story/ski/skier-triggered-avalanche-on-teton-pass-traps-three-cars

 

[Scott]

Well said.

It's simple.
Know the conditions.
Make informed choices.
If you do go, continue to adjust decisions based on new information.
Having the gear is part of the informed decision process.
Not having the gear is leaving an element out of the informed decision process.

Research comes in the form of watching videos and reading incident reports, listening to testimonials and looking at the incident report photos.
The research will help you understand with a much more broad perspective and understanding about why/when gear is needed.

I think your missing our point here. So on average 38 people die in avalanches each year. But how many were in them? 40? 100? 500? We really have no idea as I bet a lot go unreported. So how many more people would have died had every person that was in an avalanche last year died?

Now for a round number lets say 100 people were in avalanches last year in North America (which I bet is on the low side). So if 38 people died that means that 62 people lived. Now why did they live, that's what matters to me. I bet some stayed on top so they would have been easily found no matter what. I bet some were pulled out from their group finding them using beacons, shovels and probes. I bet some had an avalanche bag and that saved them. That's the stats I would love to see as that would really put all of this into perspective. The people that lived, why did they live?

 

[cmxuser]

I highly doubt the averages you would like to claim, but I also am not missing the point like you would like to claim. Whatever!

 

[jmom]

So is there a video out there about avalanche avoidance, what exactly to look for. Everything I find just tells you to take a class and get the gear. Does no good when there is no classes in my area the rest of the year. Like a Mike Duffy class on video.

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Below are a couple of links to Mike Duffy's Avalanche 1 Videos. This is a 2 part series, DVD 1 is basically Mike's introductory class, DVD 2 steps into terrain analysis and rescue techniques.

I am dumbfounded by the responses on here, classic 'not me' mentality. If you are riding in the mountains, you are riding avalanche terrain PERIOD. Get educated and be prepared.

This is just an example of the dangers in mountain terrain. Many trails and forrest roads that are ridden out west skim hillsides, almost all of them will have a snow load greater than this video. Next time you are treversing a 'trail' or old logging road, look up at what could bury you.



Find the entire Avalanche and Backcountry Skills video from Mike Duffy DVD 1 and installment 2 here http://www.firstplac...country-skills…

 

[dootime3]

Below are a couple of links to Mike Duffy's Avalanche 1 Videos. This is a 2 part series, DVD 1 is basically Mike's introductory class, DVD 2 steps into terrain analysis and rescue techniques.

I am dumbfounded by the responses on here, classic 'not me' mentality. If you are riding in the mountains, you are riding avalanche terrain PERIOD. Get educated and be prepared.

This is just an example of the dangers in mountain terrain. Many trails and forrest roads that are ridden out west skim hillsides, almost all of them will have a snow load greater than this video. Next time you are treversing a 'trail' or old logging road, look up at what could bury you.



Find the entire Avalanche and Backcountry Skills video from Mike Duffy DVD 1 and installment 2 here http://www.firstplac...country-skills…

This is why I asked Scott about video's on the internet. Because all the videos I found either wanted you to pay for it or just told you to take a class. Being new it does sound like scare tactic to get you to buy there products. So when guys tell you to take a class and get the gear your first reaction is to get defensive. My first reaction when someone said "if you don't have the gear, you don't ride with us" was f u. I wouldn't like riding where u ride and u wouldn't like riding where we ride u would probably be bored.

That being said I do think it would be better to have the gear and not need it than not have it and need it.

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[Scott]

This is why I asked Scott about video's on the internet. Because all the videos I found either wanted you to pay for it or just told you to take a class. Being new it does sound like scare tactic to get you to buy there products. So when guys tell you to take a class and get the gear your first reaction is to get defensive. My first reaction when someone said "if you don't have the gear, you don't ride with us" was f u. I wouldn't like riding where u ride and u wouldn't like riding where we ride u would probably be bored.

That being said I do think it would be better to have the gear and not need it than not have it and need it.

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Couldn't have said that better myself.

 

[Highmarker]

Since I occasionally do not wear my gear I will go ahead and answer with some questions myself...
Who wears a seat belt while in a vehicle every time?
Who wears a life vest while on the water every time?
Who wears a helmet while riding motorcycle every time?
Who wears a helmet while riding bicycle every time?
Who wears a harness while working above 8' every time?
Who wears safety glasses when appropriate every time?
Who wears hearing protection when appropriate every time?


Unless you can say "yes" to every above question, you have no business questioning anyone else about when they choose to or not to take reasonable safety measures.


And if you can say "yes" to all above......well you're an annoying dweeb!

The difference with all those items you mentioned, is that they are pretty much for personal protection only. So making the choice to not use those things is a little different in my opinion.
Making the choice to not wear a beacon, could cost the life of someone else....not just me.

 

[wyodirtbagdad]

The flip side of course is that guys like you make me really nervous and I am not interested in riding with somebody who feels they need to be geared up so thoroughly. Clearly it is seen as a license to look for trouble in the mountains by most.


In 15 years of riding these mountains we have NEVER had even a partial burial, or even a close call. It has been several years since I have even seen a sled set off a slide and that was a first timer in our group, and his last time in our group...


If I am riding in unfamiliar terrain or a group I do not know I carry my gear. If I am with my group on my mountain, I don't. I also make choices during the days ride to avoid dangerous situations. Nothing to prove and I can come back and ride pretty much whenever I want so no pressure to make a climb or a move anywhere. We just go for fun and have weeded out the big risk takers.


It isn't about the money the gear costs because we all own the gear. It is about using your head in the back country. Your avy gear is only a marginal insurance policy. Too many things can happen in a slide for me to consider such devices of much help beyond body recovery. Best to avoid those kinds of places in the first place.


If you can't help yourself, better ride in a geared up party and have the heli on standby....

To put it bluntly.....you're an idiot. If you're in the moutains you are in avy terrain. Period. If you pass a slope steeper than 20 degrees you're in avy terrain.


I knew a guy that thought like you, left his gear at home because he thought just like you that they knew the terrain and how to ride it. Was a sad day watching his wife and kids cry as they lowered his casket in the ground, especially knowing that the day he died his beacon and pack were sitting in his trailer. His son's were too and his kid spent 2 hours trying to find his dad. Ended up riding out 25 miles alone dealing with the fact his dad just died because they left their gear in the trailer. Still haunts him to this day. If you want to be a moron and cut you're chances of survival do the rest of us a favor and start riding solo also so it cuts down on the # of people effected when you cut a slide out and die.

 

[Mafesto]

The difference with all those items you mentioned, is that they are pretty much for personal protection only. So making the choice to not use those things is a little different in my opinion.
Making the choice to not wear a beacon, could cost the life of someone else....not just me.

Well the whole theme to this thread has been taking the precautions to minimize the chances of injury or death.
You can't have it both ways, if you take some precautions but not others, then you surely must respect those decisions when others do likewise.
Odds are the examples I listed above are more likely to benefit you than avy gear, so I would think you would want to take those simple measures as well?

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

Im a terrible example of someone who who will lecture on this.

I don't wear my seatbelt when I drive, I don't wear a helmet half the time on my dirtbike in the summer.

I wont leave the truck without my beacon/probe/shovel on my pack. I love my BCA link radio so I can always be in contact with my group even if I can't see them. Also rock a Float 25 Turbo Avy Bag on my back.

I spend a lot of time reading, watching the avy report, watching the weather and try to do my best to be aware of what the snowpack is doing. That being said, I like to ride and I know Im far from perfect and my excitement gets the best of me. Like many people have said, if you get cought in an avy, mistakes have been made! So yes, preventative measures are always your best option but I know as a group, we tend to be total idiots and make some dumb choices. I feel like Im far more aware then most guys I ride with/around and I know I expose myself to danger plenty.

What freaks me out with avalanches, and why I carry all the gear is we tend to explore deep into the woods, and now on snowbikes, it happens at a far greater level. It is so easy for me to be tearing along and not realize the variety of exposure I get into until you stop and look around. I acknowledge my inability to realize all of the hazards all the time and have no desire to be beaten and suffocate to death because of my lack of awareness.

Even if your not going to have the gear, take a class or two and be aware. You look at the mountains a LOT different once you realize what they are capable of and how the weather affects things.

Also, food for thought, I spend a LOT of time in the hills, so my risk is higher then most so the investment to me is lesser for how much more use I get from these items. The more you ride the more you put yourself at risk. Pushing for 100+ days on the snow this year, already over 20 and its not even the first of the year.

Either way, ride safe and come back!

 

[Pro-8250]

Holy crap! 7+ pages and counting in just two weeks! Nice job SnoWesters. I learned a few new tips here. Thanks everyone and Happy New Year! :clock:

 

[Mafesto]

Holy crap! 7+ pages and counting in just two weeks! Nice job SnoWesters. I learned a few new tips here. Thanks everyone and Happy New Year! :clock:

Well part of that is that we don't have snow, I am bored, so I keep tossing a bit of fuel on everytime the fire dies down!