Tricking ECU to Add Oil

Goinboardin

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Ctec2 has an electric oil pump. The manual says if you replace the oil pump you need to update the A & B codes for the new oil pump into the ECU. The oil pump has two sets of outputs: A supplies oil to the reed fittings, and B supplies the fuel rail (and keeps the crank center cavity filled for water pump shaft).
1608778098869.png
These sleds are light on oiling. I've read of many reports of crank bearing failures as sleds approach 2000 miles, and we all know Cat changed the top end design & oiling setup for 2020 onward The injector no longer fires above the piston at low RPM, and the oil fittings near the reeds were moved from the reeds to the case. I'm told this was done for both emissions and longevity by getting oil to the crank bearings more effectively. Looking at the crank and case (same crank '18-'20), they're nearly identical to the old Suzuki, so its not a hard parts difference causing premature failure, but rather lubrication. Suzuki's gulp oil, and live (well, most of the time) so the hardware is stout. To get there on the Ctec, many are adding oil to the fuel. This gets more oil into the motor, but on the '18/'19 that puts the oil on the top side of the piston at lower RPM and does little to nothing to get additional oil onto the crank until higher RPM when the injectors fire through the piston slot. If the pump flow could be bumped up a bit, more oil would be delivered via the reed fittings and lube the bottom end more at all RPM.

On the old BRP Etec 800, there is a single digit oil pump calibration code (1-8 or something) that the dealer programs in when the pump is replaced. If a guy wants more oil out of the OEM pump, using the dealer software to program the ECU with a calibration code 1 value lower than on the pump will do it. If the sled is a pig on oil, changing the cal code 1 higher will trim down oil useage (not recommended). My dealer had no clue about this, but Sled Head Racing clued me in to it, and it works great.

I strongly suspect this can be applied to the Ctec2. Trick the ECU into oiling a little more. The codes for the pumps have codes with 8 digits each. Maybe changing both values by 10% would deliver 10% more (or less) oil across the board. The question: is it like the Etec where you reduce the code value to increase pump flow, or the other way around?

Anyone know for sure?

I realize there is another way to accomplish this, using Torque Link. But this option would be substantially cheaper, just a few minutes shop time using CATT II.
 

Octanee

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I was told by I believe precision efi that nobody has access to the oiling perimeters yet... Whether that's true or not, I wanted a tune to turn up my oiling but between bikeman or precision they, both say they keep it stock.... :/
 

Goinboardin

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I guess I'm wrong about an aftermarket solution. I was thinking this might be a backdoor way to trick the ECU into doing what you want. No money in any company doing this, likely why it's not talked about. We need a Big John of Sled Head Racing but for Cats.

I'd guess what Precision means, is they can't go in and edit the oiling tables. But the ECU still needs a flow calibration code..if you lie to the ECU about what that code is for the pump installed, you don't get high resolution adjustability, but it should change the amount of oil delivered across the entire spectrum. Trick is to make the change in the correct direction.

Maybe I'm wrong and it wouldn't work. Just an idea. I can't dream up a way for the ECU to know you've lied to it either: the pump has all of two wires and it's not like there's a flow meter in the system.
 

Octanee

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I guess I'm wrong about an aftermarket solution. I was thinking this might be a backdoor way to trick the ECU into doing what you want. No money in any company doing this, likely why it's not talked about. We need a Big John of Sled Head Racing but for Cats.

I'd guess what Precision means, is they can't go in and edit the oiling tables. But the ECU still needs a flow calibration code..if you lie to the ECU about what that code is for the pump installed, you don't get high resolution adjustability, but it should change the amount of oil delivered across the entire spectrum. Trick is to make the change in the correct direction.

Maybe I'm wrong and it wouldn't work. Just an idea. I can't dream up a way for the ECU to know you've lied to it either: the pump has all of two wires and it's not like there's a flow meter in the system.

Yeah I know what you mean, It just seems like cat gets a lot less overall support, and people even at that, Look at the activity of the polaris/doo forums vs the cats lol....
 

kiliki

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Wondering if you could put in a device that can take the voltage input in line and give you the ability to up the output to the pump. We do it in the automotive world on lift pumps for fuel. It would need a second DC supply tho not hard.
 

killerrf

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I believe I was told by silber, that it takes in more oil due to burning more fuel... But that's not increasing an oil ratio lol its all the same...
Ok so what does that mean then? Oil pump increases automatically by how much more fuel map is adjusted or does silber up the oil intake to equal stock mixture?
 

Goinboardin

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Wondering if you could put in a device that can take the voltage input in line and give you the ability to up the output to the pump. We do it in the automotive world on lift pumps for fuel. It would need a second DC supply tho not hard.
I was playing with applying voltage to my oil pump today. Mostly just wanted to check that that it pumps oil at all (rod bearing failure, looks like lack of oil). Wasn't sure what voltage it runs on. 6V pulsed ran the pump, continuous did not run it. So I wonder if it's a matter of pulse frequency to modulate oil flow rate. It's possible 6V isn't near enough voltage for continuous operation, I need to check voltage at the 7.5A fuse on a running ctec to see what's going on.

Edited to add: The 7.5 amp fuse and 1.75-1.95 ohm oil pump resistance spec tells me it probably maxes out flow at about 14.65 V.
 
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Octanee

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Ok so what does that mean then? Oil pump increases automatically by how much more fuel map is adjusted or does silber up the oil intake to equal stock mixture?
Well basically the fuel-oil ratio is the same, If your burning more fuel its going to take in more oil to maintain its ratio, so when your turbo'd your throwing more fuel in which throws in more oil, BUT that doesn't make it a richer oil mixture at all, its still the same, and you still need it richer to help with the extra strain on the engine and wear and tear.


I was playing with applying voltage to my oil pump today. Mostly just wanted to check that that it pumps oil at all (rod bearing failure, looks like lack of oil). Wasn't sure what voltage it runs on. 6V pulsed ran the pump, continuous did not run it. So I wonder if it's a matter of pulse frequency to modulate oil flow rate. It's possible 6V isn't near enough voltage for continuous operation, I need to check voltage at the 7.5A fuse on a running ctec to see what's going on.

Edited to add: The 7.5 amp fuse and 1.75-1.95 ohm oil pump resistance spec tells me it probably maxes out flow at about 14.65 V.

May need an oscilloscope, I'm sure the pumps going to run on 12V, and its probably pulsed/ PWM to control the pumping rate, Many fuel pumps in vehicles are PWM now and they control pressure by doing that as well.
 

tenacious84

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Ctec2 has an electric oil pump. The manual says if you replace the oil pump you need to update the A & B codes for the new oil pump into the ECU. The oil pump has two sets of outputs: A supplies oil to the reed fittings, and B supplies the fuel rail (and keeps the crank center cavity filled for water pump shaft).
View attachment 363987
These sleds are light on oiling. I've read of many reports of crank bearing failures as sleds approach 2000 miles, and we all know Cat changed the top end design & oiling setup for 2020 onward The injector no longer fires above the piston at low RPM, and the oil fittings near the reeds were moved from the reeds to the case. I'm told this was done for both emissions and longevity by getting oil to the crank bearings more effectively. Looking at the crank and case (same crank '18-'20), they're nearly identical to the old Suzuki, so its not a hard parts difference causing premature failure, but rather lubrication. Suzuki's gulp oil, and live (well, most of the time) so the hardware is stout. To get there on the Ctec, many are adding oil to the fuel. This gets more oil into the motor, but on the '18/'19 that puts the oil on the top side of the piston at lower RPM and does little to nothing to get additional oil onto the crank until higher RPM when the injectors fire through the piston slot. If the pump flow could be bumped up a bit, more oil would be delivered via the reed fittings and lube the bottom end more at all RPM.

On the old BRP Etec 800, there is a single digit oil pump calibration code (1-8 or something) that the dealer programs in when the pump is replaced. If a guy wants more oil out of the OEM pump, using the dealer software to program the ECU with a calibration code 1 value lower than on the pump will do it. If the sled is a pig on oil, changing the cal code 1 higher will trim down oil useage (not recommended). My dealer had no clue about this, but Sled Head Racing clued me in to it, and it works great.

I strongly suspect this can be applied to the Ctec2. Trick the ECU into oiling a little more. The codes for the pumps have codes with 8 digits each. Maybe changing both values by 10% would deliver 10% more (or less) oil across the board. The question: is it like the Etec where you reduce the code value to increase pump flow, or the other way around?

Anyone know for sure?

I realize there is another way to accomplish this, using Torque Link. But this option would be substantially cheaper, just a few minutes shop time using CATT II.
overall your observations look good and i love what you're attempting to do. however, i think you're jumping to conclusions a bit with the first part of your original post. how do you know the A part of the code supplies the reed valves and B part of the code supplies the fuel rail and center cavity?
 

Goinboardin

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overall your observations look good and i love what you're attempting to do. however, i think you're jumping to conclusions a bit with the first part of your original post. how do you know the A part of the code supplies the reed valves and B part of the code supplies the fuel rail and center cavity?
That is fair. I made that assumption based on the labels on the pump outlets and whats in the manual. Further, I think my brain was running on auto-fill, and I was thinking the "C" pump outlet was a second "B" outlet, such that I thought there were 2 paired pump outlets. Then I assumed the "A" code and "B" code were related to the flow rates of the "A" and "B" outlet.
1610402281464.png

I suspect you know a lot about this, thanks for the comment.
 

tenacious84

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That is fair. I made that assumption based on the labels on the pump outlets and whats in the manual. Further, I think my brain was running on auto-fill, and I was thinking the "C" pump outlet was a second "B" outlet, such that I thought there were 2 paired pump outlets. Then I assumed the "A" code and "B" code were related to the flow rates of the "A" and "B" outlet.

I suspect you know a lot about this, thanks for the comment.
i certainly think you are headed down the right path. Looking at the service manual, you need the CATT II tool in order to make any changes. i mean, if you have a good relationship with a dealer or someone with a tool, you could just try to punch stuff in and hope for the best. monitor your oil consumption, watch your exhaust temps, and check your plugs frequently.
 

Goinboardin

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i certainly think you are headed down the right path. Looking at the service manual, you need the CATT II tool in order to make any changes. i mean, if you have a good relationship with a dealer or someone with a tool, you could just try to punch stuff in and hope for the best. monitor your oil consumption, watch your exhaust temps, and check your plugs frequently.
I wonder if the flow rate during the purge function using the CATT tool depends on the calibration code. Thinking something like run purge function, with the four pump outlets feeding into a graduated cylinder. Time how long it takes to fill the cylinder. Next, change the pump calibration codes both by the same percentage (up, or down, maybe 25% change) and remeasure flow rate during purge. Did the flow rate go up or down? Does the percentage of flow rate change match the percentage of code change?

If there is any outcome other than "no difference", the results could then be used to guide how to alter the pump cal code to trick the ECU into over oiling.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to do a few replicate measurements of flow (I'd go with 3 reps). Would give confidence in a measured change vs no difference (statistical significance).
 

Goinboardin

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Any issue with putting a couple ounces of oil in the tank when you fill up with fuel?
On the 18/19 motor, with the dual stage fuel injection timing, at low load/RPM the injector only fires above the piston crown. Oil in the fuel therefore won't get to the bearings. Fortunately there's not much demand for oil under those conditions. Premix definitely works once the injector is firing through the piston slot (directly at wrist pin, into bottom end) under higher load & RPM, so I'm premixing fuel at 80:1. Excessive? Maybe, don't really care though, just want some reliability.
 
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