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Attainable engineering concepts for current OEM consideration(Skinny sled 2.0)

H
Nov 26, 2007
20
3
3
-Skidoo- e shot to double as an electronic aid for faster spool up of turbo. https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/e-turbo-electric-assist-turbocharger/

Other OEMs could incorporate mag side electronics while running to operate similarly to e-boost for initial spool up. Single sequential Turbo(Dual compressor wheel) intake tract might be a viable concept to pursue as well as Variable vane/nozzle/gate, etc. could be incorporated. High egt and drive pressure would have to be monitored closely in new ECM protocol requirements. E-shot could also be utilized on crank side at throttle tip in to aid in spool up response (N/A and turbo).



-Centralize turbo above engine head for mass centralization and use current A frame structure for support. Concept B alternatively would be to go for a lower center of gravity and mount as low and centralized as possible on mag side of engine.



-Manufacture a turbo with an aluminum turbine housing for weight loss. https://www.automotiveworld.com/new...t-turbocharger-aluminum-turbine-housing-cars/ At a minimum CGI(compacted graphite iron) could be used.



-manufacture a more efficient piston/head design similar to speed of air concept(this can also possibly be applied to the complete intake tract, exhaust system and crankcase). https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2021/10/speed-of-air-engine-technology/



-Make the engine part of the structure(bulkhead)as in a moncoque chassis similar to formula 1 for a more solid chassis and weight loss(also helps lower center of gravity)https://www.motortrend.com/features/body-on-frame-vs-unibody-vs-monocoque-what-is-the-difference/. A CGI(compacted graphite iron) engine block may be more beneficial here as it would have higher strength, lower NVH characteristics, similar weight, similar low cost production, etc. which would be more conducive to this particular concept.https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/compacted-graphite-iron CGI engine can be designed into smaller engine footprint because of inherent metallurgy characteristics, including torsional rigidity, which will help with many of the challenges faced by engineers designing sleds today with shrinking engine bay compartments.



https://www.foundrymag.com/material...-weight-with-performance-advantage-sintercast



https://carbuzz.com/car-advice/monocoque-vs-unibody-construction-the-modern-way-to-build-cars



-dimple die tunnel each side near the top of tunnel above the track and definetly towards as close to the track drivers as possible. This has 4 compounding benefits Lightens the tunnel slightly, strengthens the tunnel, increases tunnel to boot traction for maneuvers(think rox sled tread pads for snowcross sleds) and reduces pumping friction losses with the track. The larger the lug on the track and closer it is to the tunnel cooler, the greater the benefit will be. This effect also compounds itself as riding progresses and snow and ice build up within the tunnel. https://www.trick-tools.com/Dimple-Dies-Punch-Flare-Tools-75



-drill angled holes through belt drive gears and cast gears out of aluminum alloy or high grade composite and use a reverse propeller internal structural design to move air through the holes and pull belt tighter while also cooling belt and creating under hood positive pressure air movement for exhaust heat to escape. Also striate gear faces similar to griptec pulleys for gear to belt holding retention purposes. https://www.zpegriptec.com

(Many of these same principles can all be applied to the CVT components as well)



-CVT components can be designed to create either positive or negative pressure or both. Might be a use case to possibly try and use primary clutch to positively supercharge intake tract for initial spool up of sled (Naturally Aspirated and Turbo).



-Possible use case of CVT to belt drive system as an under hood air/heat management system. The CVT side can be designed to create a negative pressure delta while the belt drive side can be designed to create a positive pressure delta with appropriate venting ducts of course. Therefore the CVT side sucks in air and and it naturally flows across to the exhaust side through the suction created by the belt drive side creating a positive pressure delta which removes the hot air from that side. This would immensely help the turbo sleds on top of all other gains by allowing cooler air under hood for when the intake tract is blocked and the under hood airbox baffle opens. Obviously other benefits to be had.



-High grade composites/thermoplastics can also be used for non-structural low load cases/fasteners at this point. They are also impervious to rusting and corrosion issues therefore not having degradation issues overtime from road chemicals as we all know so well. https://www.roechling.com/industrial/products/composites/gfrp-cfrp/fasteners/



-A use case for high grade composites/thermoplastics as a full tunnel structure could be argued as it would have near zero ice retention issues. Ideally aluminum coolers would still be used and isolated.



-A use case for inboard push/pull rod suspension may be feasible from the aspect of centralized mass,

Unsprung weight and pulling components out of the snow for drag resistance. This may also minimize costs involved with frontal impacts involving one side and save the cost of a shock. This could dramatically improve handling if center of gravity is kept low and calibration is done right. This could also keep a longer travel suspension/shock with a shorter stance which is becoming more popular with 36”-34” ski stance widths from OEM’s currently.


https://www.slashgear.com/1371197/pushrod-suspension-explained-how-it-works/



-Theoretical concept of opposing magnets used in lieu of track clips and molded into bottom of rail slides basically creating a floating skid with minimal resistance. Would be most beneficial near front of rails and possibly would negate any need for an anti stab wheel kit. Obviously could be used at full rail length. Not exactly sure where weight benefit/trade off would come into play at this point.



-Theoretical concept of an electromagnetic valve for use as electronic variable exhaust control valve. This could also be applied on the intake side more as a bell mouth or Venturi style control device(short to long runner airbox incorporation).



-Theoretical concept of magnetic connections with self centering exhaust joints versus exhaust springs. No more issues with fatigued exhaust springs under high boost/heat and pressure applications(boost/exhaust leaks).



-Theoretical concept of electromagnetic parking brake.



-Integral part minimization through combination of tasks. Multitask part integration. Example would be belt drive upper gear also serves as brake rotor, engine crankcase serves as motor plate and bulkhead in monocoque chassis, oil pump/water pump/fuel pump all combined electronically and housed together to minimize frictional pumping losses, fuel/oil tank combo(similar to skinz tank, but plastic), bulkhead coolant system integration(if done monocoque style almost no hoses would be needed anymore-almost self contained through bulkhead/engine-also way more efficient as coolant will always be dissapating heat through much larger heat sink volume-bulkhead-mountain sled may run cooler going up the trail with less coolant-fin entire bottom of bulkhead like coolers)-further lower center of gravity and centralize mass, less weight, etc.



-Theoretical concept of slim belt drive behind secondary clutch to track shaft with brake still on mag side track driveshaft. This would save jackshaft weight and move open up top of tunnel area for room for more centralized mass(fuel tank capacity, fuel pump, air box components, etc.) More room for turbo on mag side for low center of gravity.



-Tunnel dump exhaust to help spool up and reduce back pressure.



-Active Venturi cones in airbox with integrated guides in both hood and airbox.



-Flex fuel sensor with integrated ECM tuning and suitable fuel system to handle higher ethanol content fuels with appropriate calibration tables and increased boost pressures. Also going to require upgraded ignition components.



-Manual steering rack with increasing leverage ratio as the rack is turned. Basically power steering with no weight gain.



-Shorten the tunnel to the rear of the running board/rear suspension mounts and extend a rigid molded snow flap that flexes at the end. The consumer can then cut to whatever length they want.



-Integrate a universal ride tracking software setup that works across and is compatible with all sled platforms. Include beacon checking capabilities to warn sledder if there’s is working as well as recognizing the rest of group(basically same as ride command only track everyone through there beacons in the group as well). National and localized weather and avalanche apps preloaded onto the device . Beacon and sled manufacturers getting on the same page is how we are going to get a ride tracking device that works across all sled platforms, becomes a standard and keeps everyone informed and as safe as possible. This will push sales on all sides.



-Upgradable/Programmable ECM(No warranty) with high resolution data acquisition, all factory parameters and auxiliary inputs/outputs (as many as feasible)(Racer/warranty waiver signed only).



-Magnetic Hotdogger/Lunch cooker can.



-Rear suspension rear inner idler wheels basically same exact design and size or larger than anti ratchet track drivers. Will increase efficiency, inner track/suspension stability and durability for both the skid and track. This will allow looser track tension as well and hopefully increase single ply track durability.



-Exhaust outlet servo/butterfly valve for N/A applications to keep a tighter exhaust profile regardless of altitude/fuel setting. Twin pipes/large Bore pipe concept on smaller bore, etc. Similar approach to current race sleds with secondary control downstream. Could be incorporated into ecm strategy with 600R dragon button for pipe heat without destroying reeds as often. This would also help cold weather starting and reduce warmup time(increase engine and pipe temp). Could be used to help startup anytime.



-Magnetic accessory retention system(Tunnel bags, handlebar bag, seat bag, etc.)



-High grade composites/Thermoplastic spindles and a-arms or uppers to reduce outward unsprung weight.
 

tuneman

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Jan 16, 2013
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Minnesota
www.everettsports.net
Nice list, but with some notable issues. Aluminum and composites are definitely not always good alternatives. They tend to be more expensive and/or not always best at holding tolerances.

I believe some of your ideas are already being used, like the clutch cooling idea (Doo Gen 5).

Magnets and heat don't work well together. Look into the Curie temperature. Magnetic exhaust connections or a magnetic muff pot are not possible. Many many years ago, I went all the way to the state science fair with a project I did by showing how magnets loose their magnetism at a specific temperature. Hung magnets on a space heater element, heated them up and could precisely predict when they would fall off.
 
C
Nov 29, 2008
771
372
63
Nice list but doubt many would want to pay the $$$$$ required ...


Sent from my motorola edge plus using Tapatalk
 
H
Nov 26, 2007
20
3
3
-Smart hand warmers/brake lever added to mountain models.



-Communications radio and plug in/Bluetooth capabilities for comm. on center stack display/screen.
 
H
Nov 26, 2007
20
3
3
Nice list, but with some notable issues. Aluminum and composites are definitely not always good alternatives. They tend to be more expensive and/or not always best at holding tolerances.

I believe some of your ideas are already being used, like the clutch cooling idea (Doo Gen 5).

Magnets and heat don't work well together. Look into the Curie temperature. Magnetic exhaust connections or a magnetic muff pot are not possible. Many many years ago, I went all the way to the state science fair with a project I did by showing how magnets loose their magnetism at a specific temperature. Hung magnets on a space heater element, heated them up and could precisely predict when they would fall off.
Thank you for the constructive criticism with an explanation. I learned something new today. Through your explanation of magnets and curie temp. I did a quick search and found a lot has changed since many many years ago at the science fair, but at this point I’m still inclined to agree that pipe temp may still exceed the required magnetism for the concept. This link may interest you if you haven’t heard of samarium cobalt magnets before.


The whole premise behind this thread is to try and provide realistic engineering concepts that the large OEMs are actually interested to adopt and would actually benefit everyone. That means materials like aluminum, high grade composites-plastics(not carbon fiber), ceramics, etc. that are lower cost, high volume, familiar alternatives to exotic materials like titanium, carbon fiber, etc. are what OEM manufacturers are going to be interested in for reasons of familiarity, cost, resource abundance, availability, etc.
 
H
Nov 26, 2007
20
3
3
Nice list but doubt many would want to pay the $$$$$ required ...


Sent from my motorola edge plus using Tapatalk
That is the great part about all the options the OEM has now days! They have many different models and options for many different budgets. The only problem is people whine and complain because they think they have to have the top of the line niche market model when it is out of there budget range. They are just not being realistic. I would rather have options that I can’t afford and can work towards than have to build it from a current sub-par model from just a couple years ago. Also competition between the OEMs isn’t about to just stop and the engineers still need to get paid so innovation must come from somewhere.

Why not try and be part of the solution and not the problem???

Decided I want to contribute to society the best I can and hopefully this will help push the evolution of sleds forward with the help of many others.
 

kanedog

Undefeated mountain clutching champ of the world.
Lifetime Membership
Oct 14, 2008
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-Theoretical concept of slim belt drive behind secondary clutch to track shaft with brake still on mag side track driveshaft. This would save jackshaft weight and move open up top of tunnel area for room for more centralized mass(fuel tank capacity, fuel pump, air box components, etc.) More room for turbo on mag side for low center of gravity.

This is too funny, I currently have my sled in pieces to do this exact thing. It’s gonna be awhile yet.
 
D
Nov 17, 2008
127
93
28
You must be a want a be engineer !! I am just a life time mechanic, fabricator, and equipment builder. Most of your ideas have major problems that would make the gains not worth the negatives. One example is the dimpled tunnel which would cause snow to stick to it much worst. And I do not see how it makes the tunnel lighter with out using lighter material.
 
D
Nov 17, 2008
127
93
28
Thank you for the constructive criticism with an explanation. I learned something new today. Through your explanation of magnets and curie temp. I did a quick search and found a lot has changed since many many years ago at the science fair, but at this point I’m still inclined to agree that pipe temp may still exceed the required magnetism for the concept. This link may interest you if you haven’t heard of samarium cobalt magnets before.


The whole premise behind this thread is to try and provide realistic engineering concepts that the large OEMs are actually interested to adopt and would actually benefit everyone. That means materials like aluminum, high grade composites-plastics(not carbon fiber), ceramics, etc. that are lower cost, high volume, familiar alternatives to exotic materials like titanium, carbon fiber, etc. are what OEM manufacturers are going to be interested in for reasons of familiarity, cost, resource abundance, availability, etc.
Exhaust gas temp run from 800-1200 degrees
 

kanedog

Undefeated mountain clutching champ of the world.
Lifetime Membership
Oct 14, 2008
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You must be a want a be engineer !! I am just a life time mechanic, fabricator, and equipment builder. Most of your ideas have major problems that would make the gains not worth the negatives. One example is the dimpled tunnel which would cause snow to stick to it much worst. And I do not see how it makes the tunnel lighter with out using lighter material.
When someone poo poos your idea, that means go for it.
 
H
Nov 26, 2007
20
3
3
Exhaust gas temp run from 800-1200 degrees
EGT is a measurement of the hottest part of the flame front. Pipe temperature is an entirely different measurement, especially depending on where exactly on the pipe. A “Sam” magnet recommended max operating temp is roughly ~550 C. Haven’t taken measurements, so not exactly sure what actual “pipe temp” gets to yet….not the flame front. But I’m guessing as previously stated in the reply to tuneman that he is still right and the “pipe temp” will still be too hot. Need actual temp readings to find that out though.
 
H
Nov 26, 2007
20
3
3
You must be a want a be engineer !! I am just a life time mechanic, fabricator, and equipment builder. Most of your ideas have major problems that would make the gains not worth the negatives. One example is the dimpled tunnel which would cause snow to stick to it much worst. And I do not see how it makes the tunnel lighter with out using lighter material.
Since you are a fabricator this link should help explain the process further with the resulting benefits as well.


Not only will this strengthen the tunnel sides but it will also be lighter(drilled holes) and withstand deflection to a much greater degree. I believe the positive pressure from the track entering the tunnel will exit the holes and help self clear the tunnel sides/running boards of snow. I hope that helps explain things further. If something doesn’t make sense, let me know.
 
H
Nov 26, 2007
20
3
3
This is too funny, I currently have my sled in pieces to do this exact thing. It’s gonna be awhile yet.
Glad to see/hear of other people out there pushing research and development on there own. Without failure we can’t have success. A significant amount of the developments we have in our sport came from the private sector. Carls cycle to 9r example, Chris burandt and his supporting vendors, many on the racing side I won’t name, etc. You don’t have to have a big name to push development. Just do it to beat your buddies and the rest will follow!😆
 

kanedog

Undefeated mountain clutching champ of the world.
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Oct 14, 2008
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There’s sooo much can be done to a sled. It’s some out of the box thinking but no one has tried yet. There’s a ton of stuff available to try. It just takes imagination and a lotta cake! And nobody’s gonna be a millionaire selling sled parts or sleds so ya gotta love the sport!
I like yer thinking.
 
C
Nov 29, 2008
771
372
63
Notes to OEMs

1. You don't have to use every different fastener type and size possible on a sled ...
2. Adopt common standard for communication / tracking.
3. Seal all electrical connections
4. Revise design after crap that breaks / causes trouble ... don't keep using same shutty design over and over (Polaris switch / throttle block/ same for doo issues) ...
Sure there's more ...


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