New Mule Goodbye Thread

[crashleroux]

Since most of us never got to see this post in its orignal place, I am going to repost it now so that a few more peeps get to see it. Mule was a stand up guy and a great mods, he respected others feelings and while he had his own opinion he let everyone else have theirs also. I did pull this little tidbit out of christophers thread for mods, thought it would add a little dynamic to this thread.

Christopher:

I don't claim to be perfect, but I sure as heck am woking hard not to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

When I appointed him, I got a bevy of comments, checked them out, and then corrected my mistake by removing him.

I have no doubt but that there will be other moderators who will come and go in the same manner over time.


And finally Here is Mules post

Came home today to a few PM's, one from christopher.

A few days ago I'd been getting questioned about why I was still here at all.
They wanted to know, here's what I told them. Some of you may agree, others may not, but this pretty well explains what I felt about the direction of SnoWest.
Here's a copy of the PM, cleaned up to remove names.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mule:
really tryin to get rid of me?
Originally Posted by Christopher:
Quote:
Your a puzzlement to me Mule.

You seem so unhappy, and you go out of your way to stir up things and voice your discontent in public and in private.

So I am left wondering WHY you want to be a representative of Harris Publishing on the forums??
Why am I still here? Keep reading. I hope you've got some time, this is a long one.

Mule's Response:

First and foremost, I am Mule. I have beliefs I stand up for, skills and talents, an attitude towards life and my own personality and opinions that you may or may not agree with. Second to that comes things like my job, moderator positions, and my interaction with those around me. I DO NOT change who I am to accomodate someone else's desires. You signed Mule, the person with beliefs/skills/attitude/personality, up for this and I agreed to it after several forum members nominated me for the position. I am not just a username you can shape and mold however you wish. Save that for your wambulance. I was hoping I could give a little something back to the place that got me into sledding to begin with, and provided the space to meet some people who have since become very close friends. I trust these people with my life when I go riding with them. That's not something I can say about any other forum I'm on right now.

The problem is not with SnoWest or HP like you believe. Sure, the forum structure is a bit awkward to me now. Maybe it's just personal preference, but I'd rather see all the Polaris threads in one pigeonhole, all the Cat threads in one pigeonhole, etc rather than dividing them down into dozens of little miniforums. Example: Before the "hope and change", I was a regular in /Polaris. There were a lot of threads on machines I had no experience with that I was able to help out in. Electrical problems, or maybe a question on how to mount something. Never would have seen those now, why would I go through IQR or Edge forums if all I have is a 900 IQ? But I digress. There's plugins for vB that will let you "prefix" a thread with categories, then filter the thread list by prefixes. Or fix the "Tags" feature to achieve the same effect. I don't disagree with all the changes you've made to the forum structure and features. I think a lot (but not all) of it can improve the forum in the long run. That being said....

What myself and many others do have a problem with the way it's being moderated. Little too much overmoderation from your god-squad for me recently. Sure, some threads needed to go, but there's others that really didn't need to be touched. When people start lumping me in with the idiots that nobody has much, if any, respect for in your mod squad (mostly supermods); I have a problem with that. I feel SnoWest is becoming less and less SnoWest and more "The Christopher Show". Throw all the numbers and statistics at me that you want, but what I'm seeing is a bunch of new people registering and all the old timers that know the machines and can answer the questions they have heading for the door. Step back and look at the real reasons people are complaining.



Which kinda leads me to the next problem I've had about the moderator structure recently. What's the purpose of having a moderator for each and every forum, if the supergods are going to come in and dick with it all anyways? Not saying all of them are bad; but there's a few that really shouldn't have the job. Others i'm somewhat indifferent towards, and others I do like and feel they're doing a good job (Scott, MH, Monte). But 60 moderator positions on a forum with ~2000 users on? ADV's much larger than SW, and does just fine with half as many moderators. The mod structure there is different in that when a user is promoted to "moderator", they're assigned a forum to "moderate" and also given supermod privs across the entire forum. There's none of this "you moderate ride reports, you moderate GPS, you moderate regional areas, but *these* special people can step all over you." Said it before, but it's the contributing members that make the forum; not the shiny things, features, hardware, etc; and some of the moderators here don't quite understand what they're doing to these contributing members. Read MPS's good long post that you (or your god-squad) so graciously deleted. The two of us may not agree with a lot of things, but I 100% agreed with what he had in that post.

You say there's processes in place to keep mods/supergods from abusing their power; I disagree. Sure, a PM gets sent when a post is touched. That wouldn't stop me from selecting every thread in FP/Politics/Max and merging them all together if I were to go postal. Same goes for supergods; there's no checks on their actions until someone starts b¡tching.

I also have some ethical questions regarding accounts being used to register services for this site. As I understand it, SnoWest is a business entity under HP. Why was a domain registrar account for another forum unrelated to SnoWest or HP used to create the new SnoWestOnline domain? It was obviously an easy update, after the whistle was blown on that one it was only a matter of hours before the entry was updated. Actions like this raised some red flags about who's really handling this forum and what their motives are.

I'm CC:ing this to "admin" and "sw pub" as well, the post in /Mod and PM's lead me to believe they may take interest in what I have to say in this PM.

Maybe Banksy's on the right track....

So again, looks like honesty doesn't get you anywhere.


Came home to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher
Your letter made it's way up the food chain, and word came down that it was ok to remove you.

Considering you do nothing at all except cause trouble and try to cruise the forum without logging in as a "Guest" there is no reason I can see to have you as a moderator any longer.

Thank You for your past service.
There you have it. As a result of this I will no longer be an "active member" of snowest until the administration here figures out how to run a forum or finds new jobs. I'll still log in and check PMs, but I'll be over at other snowmobiling sites.

To all my friends on here, I wish you the best and hope to see you on the mountain and elsewhere on the internet.
__________________
ADVRider.com
ThumperTalk.com

YOUR WELCOME AND GOODNIGHT ALL

 

[H2SNOW]

Rip muley ...

 

[AmericanOutlaw]

Thanks Mule.Your personal integrity was noted and appreciated,by some.

 

[BigFish BC]

sad day for sure.

 

[firecatguy]

so let me get this straight---Mule got banned for that letter??????WTF going to be a barn burning coming soon!!!!!

 

[Motley Doo]

Mule, you were one of the most stand up guys on the forums, helped everyone and stuck to your guns....it's too bad your honesty and experience on these forums wasn't recognized by all.

......RIP Mule.

 

[bigdarrin]

Let's be clear here. Mule did not get banned for anything. He was simply removed from the moderator staff. As you can read in his letter, he pretty much admitted that he wasn't really doing any moderating anyway.

Once he lost his moderator status he chose to leave the forum. Completely different than getting banned. I like Mule. I like a lot of the stuff that he posted and did. It was pretty obvious that he wasn't taking his moderating duties very seriously and that is why he was removed.

I also agree with a lot of what he says in that letter. There is a learning curve, both on the part of the moderators and on the part of the forum participants who might be moderated. To go from having little, if any, moderation, to having enough moderators to actually watch every area must be a little difficult to take for some of the users. Understandable, but the reaction was, shall I say, a little over the top.

I could say more, but most of you likely have stopped reading already.

Carry on.

Darrin

 

[snowbunny chaser]

Let's be clear here. Mule did not get banned for anything. He was simply removed from the moderator staff. As you can read in his letter, he pretty much admitted that he wasn't really doing any moderating anyway.

Once he lost his moderator status he chose to leave the forum. Completely different than getting banned. I like Mule. I like a lot of the stuff that he posted and did. It was pretty obvious that he wasn't taking his moderating duties very seriously and that is why he was removed.

I also agree with a lot of what he says in that letter. There is a learning curve, both on the part of the moderators and on the part of the forum participants who might be moderated. To go from having little, if any, moderation, to having enough moderators to actually watch every area must be a little difficult to take for some of the users. Understandable, but the reaction was, shall I say, a little over the top.

I could say more, but most of you likely have stopped reading already.

Carry on.

Darrin

you say that he wasn't taking his job seriously! So i guess that you need to puff your chest and be in the middle of everything to take your job seriously.
You never saw any of this crap when i first started on this site. So you have to ask yourself what has changed!

 

[bigdarrin]

you say that he wasn't taking his job seriously! So i guess that you need to puff your chest and be in the middle of everything to take your job seriously.
You never saw any of this crap when i first started on this site. So you have to ask yourself what has changed!

I didn't say you need to "puff up your chest.." as you say. He admitted that he wasn't doing any moderating. If you aren't moderating, then why be a moderator. Like being a snowmobiler but never snowmobiling.

I don't have to ask myself what changed. I'm well aware of what changed.

 

[snowbunny chaser]

I didn't say you need to "puff up your chest.." as you say. He admitted that he wasn't doing any moderating. If you aren't moderating, then why be a moderator. Like being a snowmobiler but never snowmobiling.

I don't have to ask myself what changed. I'm well aware of what changed.

He had sent me a few PM's letting me know not to stretch my leash and i know he got on people when the brass pole thread was up. I think he said what he needed to when he needed to. Puffing chest is changing BCR to "SNOWEST". doing that crap is like stuffing the ballot box. we all have freedom of speech except when we are on snowest. It's like the mods are telling us to check our opinions at the door and the kool-aid is in the keg my the kitchen.

 

[SMOKE&MIRRORS]

So Darrin,

How do you feel about the change?

 

[maluchm]

Downward spiral!!! This place is like a train wreck of late.... so hard not to look

 

[spook222]

good question....

 

[XC700116]

Come on Big D, you can also see by the letter that if you've got the super mod squad running around stomping in ever section that the moderator for that section feels pretty useless and quite frankly Mule was trying to get that point across, however it can't get through the 3 inch think tinfoil helmets that Christopher so loves to refer to.

Did you also notice that there wasn't a free for all in fouled plug while he was the moderator, yet nobody was all up in arms and pissed off at him for over moderating? Until of course the last 2 weeks when the steamrollers started coming through. It's not that he wasn't doing any moderating it's that there wasn't much to be done after the others came steam rolling through. Which is exactly what everyone's gripe is around here. It's not the moderation of the crazy crap that needs it, it's the pulling of threads like the Klim warranty thread that really pizzes people off. If the forum is going to bow to a sponsor and go around the truth of a complaint to appease them then guess what, people will get pizzed.

Some people aren't cut out to be moderators no doubt, but Mule is not one of those people, he was good at it and fair. The problem is that some people are not cut out to deal with the public in anything other than a military type setting and that is What I feel Christopher is, in a way, just like you don't make the IT guy in charge of customer service and marketing. Christopher wants/wanted moderators to obey every command and be in lock step with him and the rest of the squad. If they disagree with him, they are either Fired, Ignored, or called Trouble makers, I know, I was one.

 

[bigdarrin]

So Darrin,

How do you feel about the change?

I feel like a lot of the people have been saying. I want to see how it ends. Change is hard. I see the end goal and look forward to it. We knew it wasn't going to be pretty going in. But, in the end, it will be a positive change and hopefully people will see the value that will be offered.

I understand a lot of the aggravation with the so-called over-moderation. Moderating a forum is a unique experience and not everybody is good at it. At the end of the day, though, it comes down to enforcing the rules of the forum. I will be the first to admit that for a long time here the inmates have been running the asylum. What one person calls overmoderation, another may call "it's about time they enforced the rules." For every vocal person who posts a beef publicly there may be 10 that show support privately, or there may be 30 who have the same complaint. It's a balancing act. When it hasn't been done to an acceptable level for a long time, it is painful when it does finally get done. That's where we are. Ultimately, as people get used to following the actual rules, I think the unrest will settle. That's what I'm hoping for, anyway.

Darrin

 

[buck50]

I feel like a lot of the people have been saying. I want to see how it ends. Change is hard. I see the end goal and look forward to it. We knew it wasn't going to be pretty going in. But, in the end, it will be a positive change and hopefully people will see the value that will be offered.

I understand a lot of the aggravation with the so-called over-moderation. Moderating a forum is a unique experience and not everybody is good at it. At the end of the day, though, it comes down to enforcing the rules of the forum. I will be the first to admit that for a long time here the inmates have been running the asylum. What one person calls overmoderation, another may call "it's about time they enforced the rules." For every vocal person who posts a beef publicly there may be 10 that show support privately, or there may be 30 who have the same complaint. It's a balancing act. When it hasn't been done to an acceptable level for a long time, it is painful when it does finally get done. That's where we are. Ultimately, as people get used to following the actual rules, I think the unrest will settle. That's what I'm hoping for, anyway.

Darrin

bigD, i have always respected you and the way YOU handled things here. that being said, don't belittle us now with the SO-CALLED- over moderation bit. there are threads going poof all over the place. some rightly so, whatever, but others are waaaaaaaaaay over the line. the klim thread seems to be the line over which MANY members have had enough. since when are we not allowed to posts our gripes about a company, that provides sledding gear to sledders???? because they are sponsors!!!!! darrin, it used to be that when you said not to do something, 99.9% of us said okay. now, it's more like 99.9% say up yours to the mods and admins. must be a respect thing i'm thinking. and as everybody knows, respect is EARNED, not demanded. you had our respect because you earned it with the way you treated us. the new guys, many of which nobody has EVER heard of, just go around demanding we respect them. and that is where a lot of the problem is i think!

 

[Cheekster]

ya

who saved the link , to the SWAP item , that a mod stuck to the top

IT WAS HIS ADD.. OK


oh wait he is just in training . . .

 

[bigdarrin]

bigD, i have always respected you and the way YOU handled things here. that being said, don't belittle us now with the SO-CALLED- over moderation bit. there are threads going poof all over the place. some rightly so, whatever, but others are waaaaaaaaaay over the line. the klim thread seems to be the line over which MANY members have had enough. since when are we not allowed to posts our gripes about a company, that provides sledding gear to sledders???? because they are sponsors!!!!! darrin, it used to be that when you said not to do something, 99.9% of us said okay. now, it's more like 99.9% say up yours to the mods and admins. must be a respect thing i'm thinking. and as everybody knows, respect is EARNED, not demanded. you had our respect because you earned it with the way you treated us. the new guys, many of which nobody has EVER heard of, just go around demanding we respect them. and that is where a lot of the problem is i think!

No belittling intended. As was stated in the rest of the post, what some people see as overmoderating others see as justified. That's all that was intended. Sure, there have been posts that disappear for no reason. I haven't the time to look up all of them and have allowed the rest of the Mods to take care of that "stuff". Respect does need to be earned, but it is a two-way street.

The Klim thread has become a rallying cry. That's fine, but last I checked, the thread was returned after review and some of the posts that crossed the line of decency were removed. This is a learning experience for all of us.

Hang with us and we can find mutual respect on both sides of the screen.

 

[bigdarrin]

who saved the link , to the SWAP item , that a mod stuck to the top

IT WAS HIS ADD.. OK


oh wait he is just in training . . .

Can't comment on this since I still don't know the whole story.

Darrin

 

[Beels]

I'm going to add to what buck said. It's not that moderating is tough, it got made tougher when the level of respect left. The respect left with Christopher and his goon squad. You can't bring outsiders into a tight knit community like snowmobilers and expect people to hang on their every word. You know it doesn't work like that.

The icing on the cake is the gross disrespect shown to the membership that spoke back. The Whambulance? Deleting everything that didn't fit with the direction the overlords want this place to go? Deleting threads that don't speak favorably of a sponsor? People being made mods that have been on this board for less time than a woman's menstrual cycle?

One train wreck after another.