Helping with clutch heat and blowing belts

[batoutahell]

My 163 has the stock setup, So, should I add more pin weight and the 433's?

I was in the snowies in bottomless powder and clicked it from 3 to 4 and at 10,600 feet it was pulling 8000-8100. I appreciate the help people are putting out here, it is great to have these resources. The clutching is somewhat of a mystery to me, trying to learn and figure it out.

Oh, and I was running in clicker 3 the first half of the day, checked the belt and had about an inch of cord pulling out, trimmed it as close as I could to the belt and went to 4 and did not have any more cord coming out.

Thanks

 

[winter brew]

Has anyone just put in the '07 ramps and a "proven" clutch settup (at least there are alot of proven primary settups)?? And what were the results??
Seems to me this would be the first logical move after verifying the basics.
As for the secondary it needs a progressive helix for the hills.
Someone needs to run the 160/320, last years ramps and throw a bunch of weight at it with a wide spread progressive with a shallow finish and gear down to 2.3-2.4 in the chaincase.
Everytime I read about people complaining about belts I wonder why I don't see anyone suggesting and trying different settups? Yet spend more $$ on belts than a dozen different settups.

 

[GROOTSKY]

I run stock ramps, 2mm oversize rollers with all inserts removed from pins with a 160-350 primary spring on clicker 4 and it always holds revs.

I disagree about the need for a progressive helix. I run a straight 44- it upshifts hard with no backshifting problems. I ride in the 3500-5500 ft range so the low elevation might help as well. My belt has 1000 miles on it with about 5 of those from trail riding.

 

[SWEETXPBEATCH]

I think if you change to 433 ramps you will hit the rev limiter in about three seconds. Running those ramps would be like running clicker 6. The RT 1000 runs considerably heavier arms than the Summits do. That is why you need to add so much weight when running those ramps. In order to get any real top end speed you would need more weight than the 800 motor can realistically throw.
I can see those ramps giving great bottom end and midrange but falling flat on top due to their steepness and the inability of the 800 throwing the arms far enough from clutch centerline IMO.

What do you think about this ^^^ Ghost Rider?

 

[ghost rider]

Rev limiter

Just a little more info. I have a 163 XP and the belt has never been to the last inch of the primary. At 67 mph on the flat I hit the rev limiter! Running clicker #3 Has stock pin weights, I think. Running at 6000 to 7500 feet.
Was going to add 6g pin weight for the next ride and see how that works. Have not had the clutch apart yet to check for any binding, todays work.
Now starting to think I should change ramps to 433.

RickPDX

It sounds like it is not shifting all the way up. You should add 6g pin weight which will knock the rpms down and allow you to run the belt higher on the primary. You probably have no weight in the hollow pin which is 12g. If you switch the ramps to 433 you have to use the complete set up.

 

[ghost rider]

Stock set up 154- primary 160/320 spring, 413 ramps, most dealers taking all weight out of pin 12g, gear 21.
Recommend-160/290 spring, 433 ramps, adding 4g weight to 16g pin weight or more, change gear from 21 to 19. First start at 16g. I am up to 18g with more miles on clicker 2 10,500 ft.
Stock set up 163- same as 154 but gearing is different. Do the same but start at 15g weight.
I never like to go above clicker 3, usually in clicker 1 or 2.
I have not touched the secondary but do believe helix is straight 42 on both.
Ride Idaho mountains 5500 ft to 11,000ft.

 

[ghost rider]

ramps

What do you think about this ^^^ Ghost Rider?

On a drag race you will win and in a hill climb you will win. More weight you throw the faster you shift and hold on any terrain. The key is to maintain rpms from 8100 to 8300 on clicker 3 or less while throwing as much weight as possible.

 

[Brutis20]

I went to buy a 19t gear today and it was a 19 t 13w, is this right, for some reason I thought it had to be a 15w? Or am I out to lunch here? I didn't want to start a new thread about this so a quick answer would be great, not trying to jack thread.

Thanks

 

[hymark860]

I tried the 433s last year and the top end suffered horribly. Great low a mid throttle response but when you kept it WFO it was like the upshift suffered and the track speed quit accellerating.

Same with the 2mm OS rollers. Good upshift, but the motor felt revy. I also had to run alot of twist in the secondary to get it to backshift.

Not all setups are the same I thought I would just share my experiences for the components mentioned. As a note I was using them in a TRA3.

 

[hymark860]

Has anybody verified clutch alignment? I know there is little to no adj. on for this, but that doesn't mean its correct.

 

[SWEETXPBEATCH]

clutching

Both opposing opinions seem to make sense in both scenarios.
I would ask for those that are in conflict with what Ghostrider is stating if either of you had actually tried this set up in the xp and what is your aim.
From what I can gather, Ghostriders purpose was to limit clutch heat, improve performance & prolong belt life.

 

[batoutahell]

So, are the pins 12g with no set screws? If so, what do the set screws from the factory weigh? I am willing to try the setup, mine seems to be working decent, it has the factory pin weight, clicker 4, and at 10,000-11,000 ft it was running 8000-8100 rpm up the hills with alot of powder. It did seem like on the trail it was not shifting all the way out, would run about 68 at 8500 rpm.

So, I am trying to figure out how much pin weight I need to add, and then I would just need to get the 160/290 spring, what color code is this spring? and then the 433 ramps and I would be set correct?

Thanks for sharing your experience and if it works well I will be sure and post about it.

 

[WFO or go home]

Pin wieght is 12.4 grams. Add a 25 mm screw to each and you will be at 16.21 grams.

 

[Original Tetonice]

If your R's are over 8100 RPM your sled has just lost lots of power.....As for 433 well they didn't do sqwat on the RT and they won't do sqwat on the XP as far as reducing internal clutch heat......The ramp profiles that work best for the 800R motor are 415, 417 and 419 imo along with anywhere from 16g to 18g's of pin weight or higher......The TRA has always done well with lots of pin weight as well as with ramps that it can push in order to shift out.....Than there the secondary. LOL

Good luck at chasing your tails it's been done for years by many folks. However, historically if you look back on good clutching records kept by knowledgable mountain tuners, they will all tell you the same thing the same ramps, springs, weight & helix profiles that have worked in the past on TRA mountain sleds are still the same ramps, springs, weights & helix profiles that work presently...As for the heat it won't go away either, your just going to either learn how to manage the TRA heat or go to an aftermarket clutch setup.

OT

 

[SWEETXPBEATCH]

So, are the pins 12g with no set screws? If so, what do the set screws from the factory weigh? I am willing to try the setup, mine seems to be working decent, it has the factory pin weight, clicker 4, and at 10,000-11,000 ft it was running 8000-8100 rpm up the hills with alot of powder. It did seem like on the trail it was not shifting all the way out, would run about 68 at 8500 rpm.

So, I am trying to figure out how much pin weight I need to add, and then I would just need to get the 160/290 spring, what color code is this spring? and then the 433 ramps and I would be set correct?

Thanks for sharing your experience and if it works well I will be sure and post about it.

leave your primary in. Take your stock pin wt out & put in a small set screw or nothing at all. I would also re gear it to 19T which will help with shifting all the way out.

 

[Original Tetonice]

leave your primary in. Take your stock pin wt out & put in a small set screw or nothing at all. I would also re gear it to 19T which will help with shifting all the way out.

Why would you suggest running NO pin weight at all, when historically every Skidoo motor every made loves between 16g and 18g's plus of pin weight for mountain riding in high elevations.

Running no pin weight and just relying on the arm and roller assembly to pull the RPM just isn't going to happen. When the XP's 1st hit the snow guy's were claiming to be running no pin weight and had to just laugh.

Who in the heck is advicing you to run NO pinweight ? In fact forget about about the 19T gear the 20T works if you clutched correct.

Some of you guy's really need to stop and 1st learn what the gear does, what the pin weight does, what the spring does and what the ramp do. After that you will have to learn about the secondary.

The worst clutch tuners in the world are those clutch tuner who change gears, pin weight, ramps and springs at at the same time. In doing so you have no idea what each part has gained or lost.

1st thing you need to ask yourselves is what are your clutching expectations, Top End Speed or Low end Grunt and Mid Range ? You'll be chasing your tail if you think you can tune the TRA to have great low end grunt and mid range while being able to run 85 to 90 miles per hour at high elevations....Mountain riders prefer lot of low end grunt and mid range while trail rider and more typically low elevation riders prefer top end speed. Define your need and tune accordingly.

When it comes to the TRA taking small steps at tuning is far better than taking huge steps imo.

OT

 

[SWEETXPBEATCH]

Why would you suggest running NO pin weight at all, when historically every Skidoo motor every made loves between 16g and 18g's plus of pin weight for mountain riding in high elevations.

Running no pin weight and just relying on the arm and roller assembly to pull the RPM just isn't going to happen. When the XP's 1st hit the snow guy's were claiming to be running no pin weight and had to just laugh.

Who in the heck is advicing you to run NO pinweight ? In fact forget about about the 19T gear the 20T works if you clutched correct.

Some of you guy's really need to stop and 1st learn what the gear does, what the pin weight does, what the spring does and what the ramp do. After that you will have to learn about the secondary.

The worst clutch tuners in the world are those clutch tuner who change gears, pin weight, ramps and springs at at the same time. In doing so you have no idea what each part has gained or lost.

1st thing you need to ask yourselves is what are your clutching expectations, Top End Speed or Low end Grunt and Mid Range ? You'll be chasing your tail if you think you can tune the TRA to have great low end grunt and mid range while being able to run 85 to 90 miles per hour at high elevations....Mountain riders prefer lot of low end grunt and mid range while trail rider and more typically low elevation riders prefer top end speed. Define your need and tune accordingly.

When it comes to the TRA taking small steps at tuning is far better than taking huge steps imo.

OT

I can only speak of my own experience. I did exactly what I advised the previous poster to do i.e. 19tooth gear, remove pin weight (because we are riding at 10K feet). I had no belt issues, primary was not hot to the touch and I would pull great out of the hole & climb great (even though first tank of fuel.. running rich) and still shifted all the way out & reached 80mph on the trails... IMO, it worked! IMO, if you have some knowledge to pass along great!! But, it might come across better if didn't seem as though you are "the clutching god" and the rest of us have had no prior experience or at least are willing to share what we know without being offensive. GO RIDE!

 

[Original Tetonice]

Another gray area of the TRA is the Helix. The XP comes with a straight angle helix it OK but......If you boondock, play in the trees and hillclimb a multi angle helix either a 44/42, 44/40 or 42/38 all work great.....

Dalton makes the best helix imo.

OT

 

[SWEETXPBEATCH]

THanks for the input

Another gray area of the TRA is the Helix. The XP comes with a straight angle helix it OK but......If you boondock, play in the trees and hillclimb a multi angle helix either a 44/42, 44/40 or 42/38 all work great.....

Dalton makes the best helix imo.

OT

My thoughts exactly on the helix. This is truly going to be the fix for the TRA IMO. That said, the sled rides so damn nice, I don't mind "chasing my tail" a bit to optimize what is there. I will hold my breath & hope for a quick fix from DJ or BJ on the helix, Dalton & Goodwin are both excellent resources.
Keep me posted if you find a Daltong Clutch set up that works to correct this belt issue. I had also heard rumors about the motor mounts & clutch misalignment?

 

[SWEETXPBEATCH]

My thoughts exactly on the helix. This is truly going to be the fix for the TRA IMO. That said, the sled rides so damn nice, I don't mind "chasing my tail" a bit to optimize what is there. I will hold my breath & hope for a quick fix from DJ or BJ on the helix, Dalton & Goodwin are both excellent resources.
Keep me posted if you find a Daltong Clutch set up that works to correct this belt issue. I had also heard rumors about the motor mounts & clutch misalignment?

What was the stock helix for the 07' summit 42/40?
I have all types of 44's (of course)