Belt Blower - Opinions needed ASAP!!!

[kane13]

belt problems 08 m8

Just reporting back, i went for a good ride last weekend after installing hood and side vents, hood gutted and timbersled intake. seems i have solved my issues and i realize its not a m1 and every situation is different but i still had the problem, I followed the proper belt break in procedure 20 miles half throttle but i think my problem was with under the hood heat after long pulls both clutches were just luke warm to the touch this wasn't the case before, i measured my belt before and after i had little to no wear and no threads sticking out, i will still have my clutch balanced before next season and every season can't wait to see what the outcome is there hopefully it gets rid of the vibration and stop any unneeded bearing wear. Good luck on solving your issue's mrquick.

 

[KMMAC]

Geo you touched on something I forgot, you're right if the clutch weights are too light it will cause the drive clutch to slip dangit, missed that one.

 

[type_a_positive]

Another theory.....the Cat weight profile is light tip, the RPM of the 1000 is a bit lower than most twins, the engine torque produced is significant, throw in a big track and you may not be generating enough squeeze from mid-upper shift (like climbing) to harness the pull on the belt from BOTH ends.....engine and track load. Do the combination of RPM/power/weight profile make for a combination that allows just a little too much slip and heat?? has anyone tried a different weight profile with better luck? Perhaps the Polaris 10- weights or similar? Would likely need to run a shallower helix or more secondary spring to have a good backshift though.
I think it has to be a combination of things happening to be showing up on so many sleds. I believe any amount of power can be harnessed, even at low speeds/rpm with the right clutching....look at the Yami's and the big triples, tons of low end and brutal off the bottom with no belt issues.
How about belt construction?? Doo has had some issues with this.

Not that is interesting, lighter weight with heavier tips for more squeeze on top. Who has the equipment to try this???

 

[jaws136]

They are called QACA CPC sold the ones in the range i wanted, and 2 seconds while on the sled you can add or remove weight, or tip or heal load, i have some heavy tungsten pins for more manipulation, this heavy tip is expecially needed with the small helix's for grip in the primary. believe it or not

 

[geo]

Actually what I was trying to say (but I talk too much LOL), sounds like too much backshift. Adding weight only makes it less efficient. Real quick to take out a bunch of twist on the trail with your RKT set-up. you might lose a few r`s but you have the torque to pull it. You won`t lose any squeeze `cause that`s mostly helix at full throttle. Lose the heat and you,ll stop pulling strings.

And, usually there is a simple answer. No need to re-engineer.

I also like tip weight with small angles. Especially tortional set-ups. But that`s not the issue here IMHO.

 

[mrquick68]

well i tried a softer primary spring and still pulled cords in one ride... Hmmm.


Good thoughts there Geo. i wish i would've tried that this time, but i was worried the backshift would get lazier, but maybe not?

 

[BelcourtonaM1]

2009 M1 Belt Eater

Has anyone tried to put a Yamaha or Polaris secondary on a Cat?? Those clutches float to let the belt self align. Why can't the Cat do that. Can we modify the Cat secondary to float? Why does it have to be stationary. I don't see this problem going away with shims. Way to much torque coming out of that motor. As soon as you ride hard, its get hungry and eats the belt..

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
JB

 

[Ausm7499]

After following this thread for a while and having an M1k thats not so easy on belts I really don't think this is an alignment issue. One of Geo's posts was very logical and shedded some light on the fact that the reason these sleds always pop the outside thread is due to the movable sheave on the primary. I think the major problem on these sleds is the primary slipping which could have something to do with the secondary but I have a feeling the primary is the main problem. Unfortunatley I don't know enough about clutching to understand what is going on but I am planning on adding more weight to mine to see if that helps stop the slipping. Like Geo said once these belts start slipping its hard to stop them and that is what I am seeing at least with my M1K is a lot of heat and a lot of belt dust despite lots of venting and RKtech secondary conversion and clean clutches every ride. I know of a couple people with M1K that are running softer springs then stock in there primary and less weight and they don't seem to have the same problems. I also know that the way you ride has a lot to do with it and I am definetely not easy on my sled as most of my riding is off trail with the flipper to the bar. For those that ride as I do I venture to say we will never see 800 miles out of a belt but one can hope.

In an effort to eliminate heat and prolong belt life I have done the following.
-RKtech Secondary Conversion
-Rock Rollers in secondary
-2cool side vents, nose vents, shock tower vents
-Ported top of belt guard for more air flow
-New springs yellow white in primary, Snopro green in Secondary
-Had a roller go bad in primary so I bought a billet spider from Supreme Tool
-Always clean clutches and belt before every ride

I am still running stock 80g weights in the primary but have purchased dalton adjustables 80g-87.5g weights and will be throwing more weight at it to see if heat is reduced without lossing rpm's. Also as most I am running the 046 belt and just recently installed an RKTech head and SLP single setup.

So do I have any clue what I am talking about?

Gary

 

[catsclimbtrees]

I was burning belts nonstop, pulling cords, disintegrating belts to 100 pieces (never got 100miles on one!!) I have had my clutches aligned, c-c distance checked, put 2 a/c flowrites( rectangle ones) in my shock tower, above and below clutch cover keeper. Put M8 gears in it 57-63 and rode my belt for 20 miles never going above 50mph.
I am happy to report 400 miles on this belt, and it looks great!! A lot of trial and error, and reading different threads, but it has worked for me so far. I ride aggressive, wot and 4-5 big pulls, one after the other. My primary clutch was hot before, couldn't even touch it, now.....it is warm, but equal with the secondary!

 

[KMMAC]

I think ausm is right, too stiff of springs along with too high gearing and geo's idea has alot to do with how these sleds perform. When buying one the very first thing I will do is gear down before messing with the clutches. Cats haven't changed that much gearing wise in 15 years. My brain is kind of foggy from the last time I actually rode or tuned any sleds, but one thing is for sure ,I remember changing all the weights and springs and helixes, sure got old. Once I geared down I put the stock mountain springs back in and I think added a little weight to the drive clutch and did not have another problem related to clutch or drive train.

 

[bcsnowdog]

have 09m8 been having a few belt problems,my question is i marked primary and driven with felt pen on primary have lots of belt material on movable sheave on bottom and on top none in middle,stationary sheave has no belt material on it.the felt mark on movable sheave on primary is lower than mark on stationary sheave and you can see the two sheaves are making contact when the belt goes to top.thanks for any help.

 

[1Mike900]

The secondary rollers are in good shape, No flatspots that would allow it to hang up in a higher gear, Then you hammer it and slips? I wonder if the the secondary dia. is too small for a high torque engine with high gears? Not enough leverage to get a heavy machine going without it slipping? The primary doesn't bind at all going in and out? Yes, The diamond drives are BHP suckers, They should put a Hyvo chain in there and be rid of the problems since they don't need the reverse, Bet it would be worth 7 to 8 BHP at the track! Then put back on a larger torsion secondary. Have you put it up in the air and rode the brake while applying power, This will show if the engine or anything is twisting under load, And how well it backshifts if you blip the brake on and off. I would assume there is no oil leaking from the Y pipe area that could mist the clutch, Or antifreeze?

Good luck
Mike

 

[bcsnowdog]

nothing getting on primary,will run up on stand and check for any engine movement,haven't had primary apart yet.

 

[Woody67]

I have had several customers complain of short belt life on their 09 M10s. I also had some belt issues last year. I spoke with my Cat Service tech the other day on the subject. These are the things we discussed.

1. Belt Break In. very hard to do right especailly on a M1000s. Really try hard to get 25 easy easy miles on both you main and spare belt. (not easy to do I tried.

2. Paralisim be sure it is set correctly when new and then recheck after break in as the motor mounts take a set. He suggested as much as .060 larger on the front measurement to compensate for motor movement under load

We also talked about how much easier the M8 is on belts and the consensus was they don't really know why. Another comment was he personally finds it strange that Cat uses the same secondary spring on a 600/800/1000 cc engine.

This year I tried very hard to get two belts broke in real easy and have almost 500 miles on a 060. Granted the deep snow load on it is nothing like last year.

I know this does not solve anything but thought I would add it to the mix.

 

[redman5150]

ive delt with this too and mast of the time put it back to stock and replace you moter mounts they go soft way too fast it you ride hard and that little bit of movement will cause you to throw belts

 

[Ausm7499]

Quick were are the updates? Here are my updates I have tried more weight in the primary and am now running 85grams in my Dalton adjustables with stock yellow white spring and have not noticed any difference. This last weekend I tried a softer secondary spring red/white and it would not shift worth a damn so I put the green spring back in and backed it off a little. The sled was not back shifting as well but i think it may have been staying cooler. I don't know for sure but I do know that its still slipping and I am thinking about going with a lighter spring in the primary but I don't know if that will help me out or not. Any thoughts?

 

[Wood]

What Geo said. Tip weight is the answer....assuming offset/parallelism/motor mounts/center to center is on. Of course, the rest of the setup needs to be tuned (springs/cam). Not sure if it has been discussed in this thread but machining of the primary spring cups will allow full shift of the primary (reduces spring bind). It's a big thing over on HCS...every second post contains some reference to it.

D&D Magna Force adjustable weights. They are an adjustable, heavy tip weight (Big Dog design) using magnets. No more set screws, no more washers, no more cursing, no more "how can I tip-load those buggers with more weight?". You can't get enough tip weight with the CPCs or Daltons, this is your answer. D&D one-ups them again.

http://www.ddracing.com/shop/produc...485&browse=-13667&shopBy=-1154&catalogId=-317

 

[mrquick68]

well - my sled is at the dealer still... so no real updates of now. Our snow sucks too so no more riding or testing on my part.

As for the lighter primary spring, i tried a slightly lighter spring and found i didn't like the way it shifted. The motor pulled it fine, i just didn't like the lazier up shifting. As Geo mentioned, just for the sake of trying, you might want to try a much lighter spring like the AC purple. It will quickly show you if that is indeed the problem. You can tune from there if so.

I find it interesting that not ALL m1000's have this problem. What is the difference between these sleds that makes some munch belts and others fine?

It's BS if you ask me. i'm tired of it costing me $80 in belts every ride. I'll get it fixed i'm sure, and i would be MUCH more pissed off if this had been a very good season and i was missing epic riding. But instead i'm not missing much of anything and i'm getting a bit more time with my new daughter. The glass is half full for now!

I will report back soon if/when the dealer comes up with anything.

Honestly, i'm leaning towards a bad primary now. As the problem seems to be getting worse every ride and threads are starting to show faster and faster with more black marks on the primary regardless of the clutching changes.

 

[catunder]

OK - more thoughts of mine for you all to read (assuming people are actually reading this!)... Sorry its soooo long:

-the Ti springs look to be an issue. I heard this from a few top sled builders out there (i won't drop names, but you've all heard of them ). So to check their comments, i pulled the primary spring out this morning before work and sure enough its much wider in overall diameter than the steel springs are... So this gets me thinking that i may very well be dealing with a coil bind issue... the Ti spring actually got STUCK in the primary cover!

- to further that thought, i'm beginning to believe that i may NOT have an alignment issue. I'm starting to think i've just got a slipping belt (in the primary) issue. My black pen method has worked perfect of years and currently i'm showing PERFECT alignment... hmmm.

-so i'm going to go after a fix in two ways, unfortunately at the same time (unless someone wants to donate a steel ylw/wht to me within the next day!). First, i've confirmed a number of times that torsion springs seems shift out faster on the bottom, get stiffer more expontially than compression springs. Their benefits are in their smoothness of operation - no binding as they shift like compression spring does (thus the popularity of the shift-assist devices). All this to say, that i like the "idea" of a torsion kit and will continue to play with it for now. i've got all the parts on the bench ready to go back to compression if i want to though. So long story short - the 1000 makes the torque to pull a softer spring than the ylw/white off the bottom and i'm only starting the helix out at 38* so a harder shift out from the beginning shouldn't cause any further issues, and i like this feel personally. BUT - i need a spring that squeezes a little harder at climbing speeds of around 52mph where i'm streaking my primary. In addition, i believe my Ti spring being so FAT was causing it to act EVEN stiffer in the primary and causing coil binding, perhaps not even a straight out pressure increase, which could've caused my only half-circle black streak. So, i'm gonna try a slightly less stiff spring in the ylw/grn.

-All this to say - i think Ti springs are causing problems and i think with my specific setup i need a little softer finishing primary spring or more tip weight. the spring is easier, so i'm gonna try it first. Yellow/Green 114-267 vs. Yellow/White 122-285. Kelsey likes the orange/white Orange/White 143-290, but i find higher starting/higher engagement springs always build more primary heat. plus i ride trees often and enjoy the ability to get quick pulls off the bottom-end. I really liked the gold in my m7 w/ twins and its 75/275...

-one last thought - if you are really following my belt issues and my list of mods, you'll note that i did do some alignment mods, though i kept having belt heat. I added a torsion kit as well, which seemed to help just a littl bit, but my belts kept burning, THEN i geared down and things got better, but didn't get fixed all the way. Hmmm - the gear down changes my alignment again because its puts clutches FURTHER into the shift at the same (or close) given track speed. Well, now i'm back to trust myself again - my alignments good, i've just got a balancing issue between the clutches... more primary squeeze at climbing speeds and i hope i've got it fixed!

Comments please

My stock primary titanium spring broke at approx. 500 miles on my M-8. The spring broke at thje first coil and was stuck in the primary cover. Coil binding was evident near where it broke. Broken portion was stuck in the cover. After removal and upon investigation I found the cover spring pocket has a smaller ID than the spring ID and a new spring had to be FORCED over the cover ID portion of the cover spring pocket. Switched to a Polaris primary spring and it fit easily onto the cover pocket. NOW both primary and secondary get equally warm. My primary used to boil snow after moderate riding and this excess heat has now disappeared and no more blown belts with 465 mikles on the new belt. Hopes this helps others like it did me.

 

[m1000snowman]

Try a new belt

my buddy and me have same slead, we put the new ''UltimaxXS" belt, part # XS817, HE has over a 1000 miles on it and we ride hard in the steep and deep all day long, i blew the belt att 500 miles and they have a warranty for one year they replaced it no fuss just read warranty, belt works good too its a harder belt ,its 100 dollers but worth it the first time,