team secondary

[GlennRMK]

UPDATE:

200 miles on the TIED and its working well. Zero belt issues. No pulled strings and belt looks new.

I'm running the 71/55 .46 helix and red/black (140/240) spring

Tuning wise, it requires removing primary weight, however it feels much, much faster and smoother on the upshift. On the trail the sled feels like it just wants to go faster and faster. The backshift is smoother and I would say slightly quicker.

Keep in mind my sled is a 2012 M8 SP 153 and I run mainly 8500-9500 ft. I weigh 190 lbs.

First I was running 68 gr Cat weights and Cat Yellow/Green (114/267). A little short on RPM, at 7800-7950 RPM.

Then Dalton adjustble LW weights at 68.2 gr with Yellow/Green = 8100 RPM. Seemed to run well.

Then I got a wild hair and wanted to try something different. After hearing great things about the MDS I tried a set.

Started with same setup in the TEAM and 77.8 grams (4.8 grams in the tip) and Polaris black primary spring (100/340). Liked the engagement(3600-3800 RPM). Sled pulled harder then it ever has, however needs some fine tuning in the powder. Ran perfect on the trail at 8050-8200 RPM. On the longer hills or when I started on hard pack it would flash to 7800 RPM then slowly pull up to 8050 RPM. However, sometimes in deeper snow, when starting out going slow from a roll, it would only flash to 7400-7600 RPM and then pull up to 7800 RPM.

So I put the Black/Purple (160/240) secondary spring in and took 1.6 grams out of the tips. We will see how that works next trip out. Hopefully its closer.

 

[geo]

I'm down to 76.2 grs with the MDS wieghts and a lighter primary spring (5000 to 6000'). I also am still on the 73 59 side of my helix with the 140/240 spring.
Less than 100rpm difference unloading at 3500' and the virgin at 6000', with 8050 rpm the lowest.
Haven't geared down yet but both 20 and 19 are sitting.

I intend to one day (but it's working so good LOL) dropping more weight and trying to go down on the secondary spring (120-220 and even 100-200 maybe) until i need to change to the 57 side on the hill. Then I'll go back to the last spring and put it back to the 59 because I have no shortage of backshift with it.

My new motto for the Tied is treat it like a lady lol. Don't wham-bam-thankyou-mam it with the primary. It will shift up, it will backshift, it will grab your belt like it has never been grabbed before with the twist involved. If you push her harder than you need to and she needs to push back a little too hard to do what she likes, she'll get a little hot and b**chy (but not too bad she's pretty cool).

Remember, the book says, tune your rpms with the primary and your backshift with the secondary. This clutch goes to church and follows the book.

 

[Insaneboltrounder/sjohns]

FWIW I had my primary set up the wat Steve at MDS told me to. I read on here that most ppl were losing approx 400 rpm when they installed the tied. I took out the appropriate weight and was over reving a bit 8400. So im going to put the weight back in and should be spot on !

 

[GlennRMK]

Thanks for the update Geo.

Your setup sounds similar to mine given your at a lower elevation but running less spring and more helix but the same weight.

9000 ft definitely makes a big diff vs 6000 ft.

I may flip my helix to the 71/57 side one day to see what it does.

I thought about running a softer secondary spring before trying the MDS weights, but now it seems I need a stiffer spring. We will see what it does with less weight in there.

 

[snosumitcsr]

Well i ordered a team tied up to give it a try on a 162, hope i'll be happy:face-icon-small-coo
Thanks for your updates on how the team is working for you.
Rod

 

[Insaneboltrounder/sjohns]

Has anyone determined if the loose float plug is an issue worth fixing?

 

[WyoBoy1000]

I have no idea what you guys are talking about with the weird helix angles, could someone exlpain. I am want to get one to test with MDS weights, what should I get for testing, 9-11000ft, I'm prob 250+lbs with gear and I abuse clutching and usually have to run shallower helix's than most, does it matter with these. I just need some info and what to buy, helix, springs, etc...

 

[Insaneboltrounder/sjohns]

Call the boys at team. The names and numbers are on page one here. There is 2 sets of ramps on the helix with slightly diffeent angles. You can use either. I have mds in mine and its setup for a stock secondary and the when i installed the tied the revs were bang on. So im betting what ever steve told you to run in your primary will work once you get the team.

 

[GlennRMK]

The TEAM Tied angles run way higher, and generally can run 14 deg more angle then the older TEAM secondarys.

I talked to Jason at TEAM and he is doing testing in Island Park next week to see what works. I will be checking in with him to see what we thinks.

He originally told me he thought the 73/59 would be the one.

SLP also said they may be doing some testing in future. They were thinking about a straight 57.

I decided to go a little shallower and order the 71/57 which also has 71/55. I've been running the 71/55 in mine with the Red/Black. Seemed to work well until I put the MDS weights in. Which pulled the RPM down and slowed the backshift a little. However I was running almost 10 more grams of weight.

I am riding tomorrow around 9000 ft and will post back my results after dropping 1.6 grams off the tip(I'm at 76.2 gr now, was at 77.8 gr). I also put the stiffer black/purple(160/240) spring in. Hopefully that pulls my RPM up and improves my backshift.

If your riding 9-11k, the particular MDS weights I have probably won't work with the TIED. I can only drop another .7 gr out of the tip by using the hollow screws. Or remove all screws and be at 73 gr. Not sure if he recommends that or not. I'm not sure if Steve has a set of lighter weights too?

 

[Sage Crusher]

Glen,
sure be nice to know for sure- we are at the same weight ( fully packed) and ride the same elevation... I than you for any information ans have a team on order waiting for MDS with a result from your ride..

Thank so much

S/C

 

[WyoBoy1000]

If you remove weight from the tip you might want to try adding it to the middle just to see what happens. If I need lighter I can take care of that or run a tiny bit stiffer spring. I like to start to steep and go down so I know the difference but I always wind up with way less than most to get what I need and then lighter guys can get on my sled it flat out rips so its hard deciding what to go with.
I like the idea of going softer on weight and springs, hope I can make it work.

 

[GlennRMK]

I'm already running the 100/340 spring so I'm not going to gain any more RPM from a spring. Although, the 100 is a little lower then I'm used to. Maybe I would be better off with the 120 or 140 initial.

 

[GlennRMK]

UPDATE:

Rode today. Ride was a little shorter then I wanted it to be due a member of our group ripping his track off.

But on the bright side, I rode a snow bike and that kicks ***. Going to put one on my 450 next year.

Anyways, subject at hand

Ran quite a bit better today, but still not as good as I want it to be.

The sled pulls like a freight train up the hills, but the backshift just isn't as good as the Daltons. Maybe not even as good as the stock weights. This is boondocking, getting on it at slow speed in deep snow. On the trail, or on hard pack the sled is rocketship. I would say trackspeed is closer 10 MPH faster up hardpack. And about 5-7 MPH faster in the powder, despite only flashing to 7800 and working its way towards 8100 RPM. I really want it to just flash to 8100 RPM and stay there. However, I was seeing mid 40s in powder climbing at 9000 ft, which is a nice improvement.

I was seeing 8200-8300 RPM on the trail on the way up.

And the backshift is much better then it was before. Black/Purple (160/240) seemed to work pretty well.

Again, this is really nothing to do with the TEAM and more with getting the MDS weights setup right. Also, I'm kinda wondering about 100/340 primary spring. Wondering if the RPM would flash up quicker with 120/340 or 140/340 primary spring. I have an SLP Blue/Pink (140/340) in the garage that I might have to try. I don't much care for the low engagement anyways.

So, I am going to call Steve at MDS again tomorrow and ask him what he recommends for higher engagement springs.

I might try the higher engagement primary, I might put the hollow screw in the tip and bring my weight down to 75.5 grams.

I also have Black/white 160/260 secondary spring to try. Also, I could probably flip the helix to the 57 side as the sled feels like it never looses RPM, just gains it.

So, in summary, sled ran a lot better and is close. Is spot on for running up hills, but for playing in the trees and deep fluff, the RPM just doesn't flash up quite high enough for me.

O, and no belt issues at all. Clutches get hot but I can always put my bare hands on them.

 

[geo]

This may end up being a MDS tuning thread as much as a Tied thread. It worth it though. The two together are the ultimate for me.

Glenn. When you changed to the 160-240 spring you took away backshift (not the weights). The 140-240 is a higher spring rate (backshift signal is stronger at any point). Don't confuse spring pressure with spring rate. Try to stick to that spring until you get a flat shift from the front. Then you can try and see if you can live with less backshift or belt side pressure from the rear.

The Pol spring your using is actually closer to a 115-355 spring in a Cat clutch. The MDS weights were designed on the dyno using the Cat yel/wht but that spring has a high engagement with these weights. So you get that Pol spring (why Steve???)to keep the engagement down and it has about the same spring pressure at climbing speeds as the yel/wht but in the higher shift ratios it has too much spring pressure hence the higher rpm on the trail up.
That makes tuning these weights tough if you don't seperate it that way. I like to think of it as hitting a spring wall.

My suggestion to you (and this is just my opinion) is to tune these weights with the Yel/Wht. It's a good spring except engagement may be too high (but live with it to tune, as long as it is smooth) and it will coil bind towards full shift.

Put the yel/wht into the primary with the weight you have and the 140-240 back into the Tied. Take a morning and find a flat (or slightly up hill) snow coverd meadow at your elevation (to eliminate variables). Basically some place with a load that you can take your sled close to FULL SHIFT. Come out of the hole or a slow roll and pin it til 75-80mph. Focus on nothing else but getting the correct rpm (with your washers and screws) through the majority of this run.
You should have a bit of overev at the beginning (10 to 20 sled lengths) and I know these weights well enough to say the end will be a touch high (75 to 100 rpm) because of the spring starting to bind and the agressive ramp.

Then go to the hills and trees. If you lose rpm on the hill it is backshift (but I don't think you will with the Tied). If you spin too easy in the trees, you may have to try a softer start but keep the rate the same (primary spring). Yl/ Grn is a very small step here. Personally I think you will just be grinning, but that's my opinion.

These weights like a 120ish lb per in. spring rate to be consistant. After 2yrs of using MDS weights I start tuning with a 100 lb per in. primary spring. So, I know these weights do not have a backshift issue. They backshift themselves because of the ramp design. Don't point a finger at these and say they backshift poorly (that'll lead you in the wrong direction). They cured the backshift issues with the D-drive secondary.

I use a Cat silver ( 80- 190 or something). This allowed me to use the least weight so I could run with the least backshift signal from the secondary (most efficient??). Kinda P-85 like.
This gives me a 3200 engagement which is my preference, short clutching phase (about 10 to 15mph till the clutchs start to shift up) and quick easy shift out with never a spring wall on a hill (max track speed attainable in my book).

You may never be able to run the silver at your elevation Glenn but remember the spring that was used to design this weight.
If you keep it simple when doing tuning ( do it somewhere with a load that will allow you to go to full shift) and remember that the spring pressure at any given shift point (which dictates the rpm at that point) depends on the Spring Rate as much as start and finish rates, you may end up comparing apples to apples instead of apples to oranges. It should get to what you want quicker.

Hope it helps.

 

[snosumitcsr]

Team sent me a 71/59.46(what i ran)---71/57.46 helix with a red/Pink 140/260 sec spring.
I ride 3000-7000'. I had mds weights with 79.7 grams in with yelow/wht primary spring. engagement was horrible, and im not sure what spring to put in there, maybe the yellow/grn might be the one. any sugestion? had the pol black in with stock secondary, liked the engagement but it over reved. put clutch on and beat the trail to the good hills, where my chaincase nut got loose and had to turn back just when it was getting fun(400 miles on the sled and nut got loose), so i really didn't get a shift feel other than engagement is not acceptable at 4200-4400 ish. now back to the dealer for the chaincase nut fix. Got a 20 tooth sprocket on order so gonna have the dealer install it while they are in there. Wish i had a little time on the new clutch to get a good feel, but i'll hacve to wait a week i guess. keep the great info comming.

Rod

 

[GlennRMK]

Well I put the 140/330 Polaris spring in and just moved it around the shop and couldn't deal with the engagement at around 4700 RPM.

So, I went and got a Polaris Black/Green 120/340. I will try that next ride. Again, I'm just trying to get the RPM to flash up a bit quicker then the 100/340 spring. I thought the engagement was a little low on that too.

If it makes no difference, I guess I will take more weight out.

Hopefully my 20 tooth gear shows up next week too.

 

[WyoBoy1000]

First,

WTF, I posted some stuff on here and now its gone, not the first time either.

Glenn,
the poo spring seems to have a break in period, after the first ride they engage a little smoother, make sure the weights swing free.
I wish SW made a spring that was in the range of the poo springs, they seem to hold up really well.

 

[NoSoup4U]

Has anyone determined if the loose float plug is an issue worth fixing?

I don't know if they intended it to be like that, but it's my only complaint with the Team Tied. My secondary makes a rattling sound (for lack of a better description) that is very noticeable at low speeds that is driving me crazy. It completely goes away if I put the stock secondary back on, so I know it's coming from the Team Tied. Other than that I impressed with the way the Team Tied performs.

 

[Insaneboltrounder/sjohns]

Hmmm ive heard that too

 

[White Rad]

Regarding the float plug here is a video I made showing what I was observing as far as the secondary being able to come out of parallel due to the slop. It is not just due to the float plug though the inside bushing that rides on the larger diameter part of the jackshaft also has some play. Can this happen when under load? Is it enough to be of concern? Im not sure but would love to here others opinions. I think if the plug were just a little tighter it could stop the rattle and some of the movement.

Otherwise mine is working great I have over 600 miles on it now (with custom float plug). I went to a red/pink spring and 70/57 .46 side of my helix at 3/6k elevation. Sometimes in denser deep snow it still wont snap up to full rpms and settles out at 7900 but for most conditions it seems really close.