860R in rev

lancelarue · Oct 24, 2013

carbs

That's what I thought also! Raised slides up until top was flush with bore, idle was even higher. I also screwed up when I setting the carbs up, had them matched @ the top which made them off a touch on the bottom.
I don't think there's a gap on the engine side on top, if there was I would think it would be "out of park" lean. Next time I pull the carbs I'm going to check.
I put som more heat cycles on it today. It's running pretty good. Throttle feels right, we'll see------. Couple more heat cycles, rpm should come up as it loosens up and then it's time to fire up the dyno and start putting some load on it. I went ahead while it was cooling off and put my pressure ports & EGT probe fittings on the pipes, did a better job on the set up, better alignment with the manifolds, nice & sturdy on the engine stand.

byeatts · Oct 24, 2013

lancelarue said:
That's what I thought also! Raised slides up until top was flush with bore, idle was even higher. I also screwed up when I setting the carbs up, had them matched @ the top which made them off a touch on the bottom.
I don't think there's a gap on the engine side on top, if there was I would think it would be "out of park" lean. Next time I pull the carbs I'm going to check.
I put som more heat cycles on it today. It's running pretty good. Throttle feels right, we'll see------. Couple more heat cycles, rpm should come up as it loosens up and then it's time to fire up the dyno and start putting some load on it. I went ahead while it was cooling off and put my pressure ports & EGT probe fittings on the pipes, did a better job on the set up, better alignment with the manifolds, nice & sturdy on the engine stand.

Also our Bored carbs setups require the belt installed and the friction to pull down to proper idle. Cant wait for you numbers!

lancelarue · Oct 24, 2013

Reeds / carbs

What are you running for reeds / and what petals in them?
I've been running Boyesons for long time now, ( RAD Valves) They're supposed to flow 197 cfm @ a little over 5" vacuum. I opened them up to match the bored carbs.
Boyeson are making me up some different petals to try. When I'm ready and get my baseline #'s I'm going to swap reed petals and see if what I think is going on, is true-----------.
The stocker 800R was doing 262 cfm. I can't wait to see what this will flow.

Would love to get my hands on some 46 Lectrons to try here at the lower altitudes. The Boyesons that will fit them will flow HUGE air also.

byeatts · Oct 24, 2013

lancelarue said:
What are you running for reeds / and what petals in them?
I've been running Boyesons for long time now, ( RAD Valves) They're supposed to flow 197 cfm @ a little over 5" vacuum. I opened them up to match the bored carbs.
Boyeson are making me up some different petals to try. When I'm ready and get my baseline #'s I'm going to swap reed petals and see if what I think is going on, is true-----------.
The stocker 800R was doing 262 cfm. I can't wait to see what this will flow.

Would love to get my hands on some 46 Lectrons to try here at the lower altitudes. The Boyesons that will fit them will flow HUGE air also.

Boyensons sent me med and a stiff versions of their carbon reeds to try, The Med work better for boondocking throttle response off the bottom.The slide adjustment was critical in the idle and belt required enough drag that track would almost move on stand, That pulled hangin idle down perfectly.. Most the 860s ran 17.5,s at 2.5 turns also with bored carbs ,the carbs top plate which gets warped needs sealed very well.Dont care much for that design,,

lancelarue · Oct 24, 2013

fueling

Yes it's going to be interesting.
I'm going to build throttle stops for 1/4, 1/2, & 3/4 throttle positions to get the fueling close as I can on the dyno. I've never done this before, should be interesting. Instead of going WFO on a pull, try to simulate perfect clutching working off the throttle actual position. No guesswork! Never worried as much about fueling too much in the mid when on the dyno in the money making days. It would definitely show up as weak / fat etc. if it wasn't right, but as long as it was safe I'd look at the big picture only as a person was always WFO on the dyno anyway. This time I'll use a step test @ throttle positions and get everything dialed up to WFO. I've always wanted to do this but when I used to be making a living at this, well, time is money. Now I'm retired and I don't give a rats ***. I just want to turn over all the rocks I never had time / could afford to do & find everything thats there to be had. Besides, it's way more fun to jump on your sled when it gets deep and not have to be watching everything all the time until you get all dialed in. Just the time spent on the mid range what with needles up & down / different needles / machining the opening in the slides etc. etc. to get them right-------.

byeatts · Oct 24, 2013

lancelarue said:
Yes it's going to be interesting.
I'm going to build throttle stops for 1/4, 1/2, & 3/4 throttle positions to get the fueling close as I can on the dyno. I've never done this before, should be interesting. Instead of going WFO on a pull, try to simulate perfect clutching working off the throttle actual position. No guesswork! Never worried as much about fueling too much in the mid when on the dyno in the money making days. It would definitely show up as weak / fat etc. if it wasn't right, but as long as it was safe I'd look at the big picture only as a person was always WFO on the dyno anyway. This time I'll use a step test @ throttle positions and get everything dialed up to WFO. I've always wanted to do this but when I used to be making a living at this, well, time is money. Now I'm retired and I don't give a rats ***. I just want to turn over all the rocks I never had time / could afford to do & find everything thats there to be had. Besides, it's way more fun to jump on your sled when it gets deep and not have to be watching everything all the time until you get all dialed in. Just the time spent on the mid range what with needles up & down / different needles / machining the opening in the slides etc. etc. to get them right-------.

You have a track and engine dyno , Nice

lancelarue · Oct 25, 2013

Dyno

Nope, just an engine dyno.

lancelarue · Oct 25, 2013

Were you running straight across on the pilots / needles /mains, or did you end up staggering the fueling between carbs somewhere?
He he, I'm running into all kinds of new interesting stuff here!
The fueling is so different between the carbs, (at least I think it's the carbs, pipes are a little suspect?)that I took a 1" thick piece of rubber belting and bored a hole through it to fit on my handlebars on the dyno, then cut 3 sides to where each flat matches up perfect to the throttle wicker to 1/4 , 1/2, 3/4 throttle settings looking at the carb bores. That way I get consistent readings trying to get things balanced out here.
Man, I've been all over the place !!!!!!!!!! I've got the pilots staggered to get the very bottom right, and probably will end up almost one full clip off on the needles.. I was @ .020" shim + on the one side when I quit tonight and I'm still 140* + off @ 1/4 throttle. Oh well, I like a challenge!
Tommorow's another day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

byeatts · Oct 26, 2013

lancelarue said:
Were you running straight across on the pilots / needles /mains, or did you end up staggering the fueling between carbs somewhere?
He he, I'm running into all kinds of new interesting stuff here!
The fueling is so different between the carbs, (at least I think it's the carbs, pipes are a little suspect?)that I took a 1" thick piece of rubber belting and bored a hole through it to fit on my handlebars on the dyno, then cut 3 sides to where each flat matches up perfect to the throttle wicker to 1/4 , 1/2, 3/4 throttle settings looking at the carb bores. That way I get consistent readings trying to get things balanced out here.
Man, I've been all over the place !!!!!!!!!! I've got the pilots staggered to get the very bottom right, and probably will end up almost one full clip off on the needles.. I was @ .020" shim + on the one side when I quit tonight and I'm still 140* + off @ 1/4 throttle. Oh well, I like a challenge!
Tommorow's another day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mine are straight across. EGT,s are within 2 degrees, balance of the slides was criticle toget that close..140 sounds like air leak.?Twins will have different bends?Id sure love to be a fly on your wall,,sounds fun

lancelarue · Oct 26, 2013

temps

I'm going to get more serious about throttle position / rpm / egt's today.
Engine has a couple hours on the dyno and it's changing pretty fast. I figure the 1/4 throttle should be about 4K rpm, 1/2 6K, 3/4 7K. I know what I've always had for heat in these ranges and comparing to the plugs I should get done here quicker. I was running too much rpm for 1/4 throttle yesterday when I got to looking at some printouts last night. Concentrating on getting time on the motor up & down etc. yesterday.
I can actually lean out the pto some and it will be a lot closer-we'll see.
I'm getting some reversion back through the carbs which is not uncommon, but when I get things a little more figured out, will space out the header pipes with more spacers to see if I can clean it up.

lancelarue · Oct 26, 2013

Dyno

Starting to come together nicely! Things are balanced out temps are fine for now. It's always amazing how fast they can grow between runs! Having a little trouble now @ 1/2 throttle when the valves start to open. She's hungry!!! Reset the load valve on the dyno to get ahold of it better. I want to spend some more time @ 1/2 throttle and as it was loosening up and getting more and more knarly, harder to hang on to! This will put the "iron fist"on it!!!!!!!
Gained almost 10 hp last pull over the previous. Apples for Apples, amazing-

BIG JOHN · Oct 28, 2013

the pipes are NOT identical...thus will pull on the carbs differently...
the carbs will need "specific" jetting per pipe...
better call turbojamie to verify...he knows EVERYTHING:face-icon-small-ton
BJ

lancelarue · Oct 28, 2013

Pipes

You're right on the money there John. I'll get the pipes close later when I'm able to go WFO, but for now have to suffer through the break-in. Just playing it safe and keeping things happy( fat that is! ). Geez break in on a dyno sucks.

lancelarue · Oct 31, 2013

fueling

Well this thing has been a hoot. Chasing the mid-range all over as it's loosening up on the dyno until--- couldn't fatten it up anymore! #5 on the needles w/ .030" shims under and too hot. Ordered reams for the needle jets.
Thought, screw it. Took the mains clear out, Wa La!! Had to drop both needles, to #4 & #3. This was with 560 mains. What a mind warp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This has been at half throttle only. I'm only a couple gallons away from going to 3/4 throttle.

Went out & had time to do a couple more pulls. Running good now. Had some weird things going on before looking at the data sheets/ fueling- inconsistent. Kept me on edge all the time, now, same heat etc. pull after pull. Just right. Haven't really been focusing on the happy #'s what with the fueling all over, but went back and did the weather input, it's still growing nice. I let her have her head just a little(I couldn't help it!!!!!!) and I see it hit 100hp @ 6900 @ 1/2 throttle. (rubber block under the wicker). It's not too close on the fueling, it just hit 1000* @ 6900. Geez, I can't wait to turn this thing loose !

lancelarue · Nov 1, 2013

fueling

Another interesting day. Motor grew to the point exhaust valves were trying to open @ 5k which is where I normally start a pull. Needless to say, was raising hell try to get a hold of things. After spending /wasting part of the morning try to get the dyno to hang on to it, went ahead and added the wimpy 2002 exhaust springs on top under the cap to move the rpm up. It worked so I could get a pull going.
Got a little rambunctious on how long a pull I could make, we'll see extent of damage in the am, hoping just a piston.:mmph:
Anyway, the 100hp moved down to 6300 last pulls. It's going to be a brute for sure( 1/2 throttle)
I'm thinking the needles are going to have to be different in the midrange @ full timing with the load this will pull. Obviously I won't know the exact rpm at 1/2 throttle with the clutching variables, thinking to get it clutched to what it wants, I'm going to have to get more fuel by changing the needles / whatever in this range. We do a lot , of pulling in this range climbing up the Glaciers etc. up here. Sometimes 3 or 4 thousand feet elevation change in one pull, and when it's deep, quite a test. Not overly steep all the way, just endless. Really don't want to get into custom needles, but unless I can pull a rabbit out of my hat that's what it's looking like. You know a person can fudge around on the bottom with the pilots / screws etc. but once you hit that mid, and usually max timing it's tougher.
Tomorrow is another day!!!!!!

NEWDUCK · Nov 6, 2013

Have you touched the intake ports at all?

lancelarue · Nov 7, 2013

Intake ports

To date I haven't done anything in the intakes other than fill all the reed boxes to get rid of excess volume. When I'm done the reeds are a slip fit and blend in @ the inside ( torward cyl. ) using Devcon after talking with Boyeson to confirm what I thought the max petal movement is.
I'm not getting enough fuel out the rear boost port looking at the burn on the pistons so I'll go after that this time around.
I've had people tell me their different solutions to the lack of fuel @ rear boost port, I'm looking at modifying the port / timing maybe. need some more time to study. I'm thinking with the transfers being so huge on these R motors, not much resistence- versus the small opening coming up from the crankcase to supply rear port may be the culprit. The old series 3 had much smaller transfers so I'm thinking there was enough resistance to force more up the rear?
I might open the port a little sooner to get a jump on things but not enough to start pushing out exhaust.

BIG JOHN · Nov 21, 2013

lancelarue said:
To date I haven't done anything in the intakes other than fill all the reed boxes to get rid of excess volume. When I'm done the reeds are a slip fit and blend in @ the inside ( torward cyl. ) using Devcon after talking with Boyeson to confirm what I thought the max petal movement is.
I'm not getting enough fuel out the rear boost port looking at the burn on the pistons so I'll go after that this time around.
I've had people tell me their different solutions to the lack of fuel @ rear boost port, I'm looking at modifying the port / timing maybe. need some more time to study. I'm thinking with the transfers being so huge on these R motors, not much resistence- versus the small opening coming up from the crankcase to supply rear port may be the culprit. The old series 3 had much smaller transfers so I'm thinking there was enough resistance to force more up the rear?
I might open the port a little sooner to get a jump on things but not enough to start pushing out exhaust.

THIS is your problem...sorry, boyeson tried filling in the 800R intake years ago and failed miserably, they know better...leave the intake...nothing but unwarranted issues with any changes...work the exhaust port /sub ports...needing that much fuel shows your not PULLING any fuel up the nozzle...BJ

NEWDUCK · Nov 21, 2013

I agree with that!! When you compare the stock reeds on the 800r vs the Boysen rage cages(made for the 800ho) you can see there will be a performance loss. Those just weren't made for the 800r. Best things those are used for is a turbo sled as they don't blow apart. But nothing wrong with trial and error if you have a dyno.

lancelarue · Nov 21, 2013

Intakes / Reeds

Interesting.

860R in rev

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