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Avid products anti ratchet drivers for the IQ drive shaft

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mountainhorse

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I'm running the 2 AVID Combo Drivers, trimmed rails, proper tension on the track and NO anti stab wheels..

With the Combo drivers, there is no reason to run a center driver.

I do not plan to port the 3" pitch, Arctic cat Power Claw 153" 90 Durometer track.

No pix yet as I do not have the track yet... I'll post some up later this summer.
 

1Mike900

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Are these the ctr. drive extros? Or the off-set extro drivers that run on the two inner set of cleats? Just wondering if the offset ones were just as good?

thanks
Mike
 

FTXMOTORSPORTS

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Alsled,

Very cool....

Let us know how it works next season..

What height lug are you using on your sled?

http://www.hardcoresledder.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=405690&st=100&start=100

RESIZEDEDGESHAFTINIQRMK.jpg


Why not just drill and tap the speedo end of the driveshaft for a 5/16" bolt and leave the stock speedo pickup? And use that as the signal for the Racepack?

Also.. with all the shimming etc on the chaincase... you might just want to run the self aligning bearing from the IQR's in the lower chaincase position.

That could save you from popping the case if you have a misalignment issue that rears its head.

Just for that added little measure.



self_aligning_bearing.jpg


Man, if I had caught this discussion sooner I could have saved you some grief! We've been building hex shafts for the IQ for two years and for a variety of reasons. Bolt in-no mods,no shimming etc...We had a group of insane turbo riders that kept breaking the case stub off the hydroform shaft and polaris wasn't making them happy soon enough so we developed the hex shaft for them. it also allowed us to use any pitch driver while avid and wahl developed the hydroform drivers. The hex shaft also doesn't build up ice like the large cold surface of the hydroformed shaft-

curt
 
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Man, if I had caught this discussion sooner I could have saved you some grief! We've been building hex shafts for the IQ for two years and for a variety of reasons. Bolt in-no mods,no shimming etc...We had a group of insane turbo riders that kept breaking the case stub off the hydroform shaft and polaris wasn't making them happy soon enough so we developed the hex shaft for them. it also allowed us to use any pitch driver while avid and wahl developed the hydroform drivers. The hex shaft also doesn't build up ice like the large cold surface of the hydroformed shaft-

curt

Actually I have your jackshaft in the sled to get rid of the splined end and go back to a keyed end for the clutch. Worked perfect.

Going to the edge drive shaft was easy, just turn down the end and cut to length. The drivers were the pain getting them in the right spot.

I to wondered about the durability of the weld at the sprocket end, another reason I went to the hex.

There is still no way I will cut the rails, then have to run the track tighter so it doesn't stab. I run my tracks as loose as possible, its great for fuel economy, acceleratrion and midrange pull. As far as a loose track loosing top speed? My twin still does 110 and the triple xcr was doing 123mph with ease with a track hanging 1.5''.

I don't care about the speedo, I have 2 avenger 3's that will go on it. I'll have the 2nd rpm pickup on it for mph. I havn't looked at the stock speedo in 10 years except for trip milage and total milage.

As far as the hex being heavier, I'm a flatlander at low elevation and hate powder and deep snow. I like packed trails. So the extra 1/4 pound or whatever it is doesn't mater to me.

I tried all the light wieght parts years ago. Chrommolly handle bars, I broke them in 2 weeks landin off a jump, nearlly killed myself when my right hand went through the windshield, chrommolly radius rods, bent them after a few rides.

Thanks again for all the input, and again, nice jackshaft.

Al

Ps.

Sell your jackshafts with the little round ring that keeps the rotor from going to far. They are a pain to get off the stock shaft.
 

mountainhorse

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Not many flat-landers on here... most LIVE for pow days...A lot of people on here also pay big money to drop weight and improve deep snow performance.

Two different mentalities and I can respect that... I applaud your creative touches..

On a short lug track... not much leverage on the track belting from the lugs, and the multi ply belting is more resistant to distortion than the new lightweight tracks that many Mountain sleds come with now .... approach 2" lugs and I can guarantee that you will lose traction with a loose track. Camoplast agrees with me.

Loose tracks deform under load and hard accelleration... they also allow the track to fold over and PROMOTE stabbing... especially evident on tall lug tracks with higher leverage from the lug on the track belting.... simple physics.

Stock tension... 3/8" between track and hyfax... with 10lbs on the track Rolls nice and easy when the sled on the snow (not hanging on a stand)

Trimming of rails... not an issue for me... Arctic Cat, Yamaha, Ski Doo and even Polaris (on the IQR) run combo drivers and SHORT rails on production mountain sleds without issue when running proper tension. The stabbing seems to happen when people run loose tracks. If the geometry of the skid is correct... there is no need to run the track loose, IMO.

As for a loose track and more economy or more power...IMO... not really. Static "Pull resistance" on a stand, or hanging from a strap, is much different than loaded rolling resistance at speed with the track draging on the top of the tunnel... but then again... you are talking about your short lug, flatlander so the track doesn't drag on the tunnel.

Your shimming of the case that you talked about on HCS... makes me wonder what was out of whack on your sled??

Are you saying that Cromoly is LESS fatigue resistant than the mild steel that the stock bars are made from? I havn't seen a Cromo rad rod in a while... been using swaged 70 series aluminum for a long time... no issues...

Weight diff is more in the area of 2 lbs for the HF axle compared to the hex... More for a 4 driver setup. On a deep lug (2.25" and taller) a 4 driver axle is a bastage to get in even with the chaincase off.
 
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Not many flat-landers on here... most LIVE for pow days...A lot of people on here also pay big money to drop weight and improve deep snow performance.

Two different mentalities and I can respect that... I applaud your creative touches..

On a short lug track... not much leverage on the track belting from the lugs, and the multi ply belting is more resistant to distortion than the new lightweight tracks that many Mountain sleds come with now .... approach 2" lugs and I can guarantee that you will lose traction with a loose track. Camoplast agrees with me.

Loose tracks deform under load and hard accelleration... they also allow the track to fold over and PROMOTE stabbing... especially evident on tall lug tracks with higher leverage from the lug on the track belting.... simple physics.

Stock tension... 3/8" between track and hyfax... with 10lbs on the track Rolls nice and easy when the sled on the snow (not hanging on a stand)

Trimming of rails... not an issue for me... Arctic Cat, Yamaha, Ski Doo and even Polaris (on the IQR) run combo drivers and SHORT rails on production mountain sleds without issue when running proper tension. The stabbing seems to happen when people run loose tracks. If the geometry of the skid is correct... there is no need to run the track loose, IMO.

As for a loose track and more economy or more power...IMO... not really. Static "Pull resistance" on a stand, or hanging from a strap, is much different than loaded rolling resistance at speed with the track draging on the top of the tunnel... but then again... you are talking about your short lug, flatlander so the track doesn't drag on the tunnel.

Your shimming of the case that you talked about on HCS... makes me wonder what was out of whack on your sled??

Are you saying that Cromoly is LESS fatigue resistant than the mild steel that the stock bars are made from? I havn't seen a Cromo rad rod in a while... been using swaged 70 series aluminum for a long time... no issues...

Weight diff is more in the area of 2 lbs for the HF axle compared to the hex... More for a 4 driver setup. On a deep lug (2.25" and taller) a 4 driver axle is a bastage to get in even with the chaincase off.

I know there are not many flatlanders on snowest but there are many people that I have come to respect thier ideas and knowledge. I came to snowest in 2003 for help on a psi engine. I was the looser that spent 410k on a psi 1155. Maybe you remember my topic, psi 1155 dynotech research, you won't believe it.

I run a ripsaw, 1.25 with 108 studs, 136 long.

As far as a loose track having less roll resistance and better gas milage. Think of it this way. If the track is on the ground or up in the air there is always the same intial tension. Any track that is easier to pull by hand takes less power to do. If a track is tight or loose I cant see it matter as far as hitting the top of the tunnel. That part of the track is under tension upon acceleration and pulled tight. The track ifrom the drive shaft to the first part of the rail is wher it ballons.
I can feel the difference in a track set to poo's standars and mine upon deceleration. The tight track stops faster, melts hyfax quicker. I also with a loose track have never killed a driveshaft bearing.

The sled is not out of wack. Its never seen snow and nothing is bent. there is another topic on hardcoresledder on blue printing the chasis. I didn't believe it myself but. get in your sled with a square and ruller and start measuring. The easiest way to check how straight the drive shaft is in the chasis that I found was.
Put the shaft in and bolt the chain csae down, measure how far its hanging down, then push up and measure how far its hanging down. Take the average of the 2 and that better be the distance that the shaft is right out of the case.
Don't forget these sleds are mass produced, stamped and welded. Its not like building a chasis from bare stock and keeping everything square.

Chromemolly is less fatigue resistant. Its stronger, harder and more brittle. Kinda like aluminum, 6061 will break and crack before it bends, 4043 will bend more before it cracks. It will not take harmonics or the same flexing as long a smild steel at twice the thickness.

I'll have to wiegh the two axles, I didn't think there was that much difference, hard to tell by hand.

As far as getting the driveshaft in and out, thats real easy on mine, The pain in the butt is removeing the chaincase and putting it back on. But the shaft slips into the chasis very easy.

I enjoy your feedback.
Thanks for your replies.
 

mountainhorse

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Al, I've seen this argument before... I'll give my point of view here... [IMO]. I present this after talking to the people at Camoplast, and other respected people in the field like Jack Struthers.

An OVER-tightened track IS counter productive to performance as you say... not to pe confused with a Properly tightened track.

Since the weight of the sled presses the track against the hyfax (in use, compared to on the stand) the 'loosness' in a loose track has to happen some where... the track does balloon at the top unless the track is unloaded or catches some air.

As much as the track is pulled on the top by the driver, it is "pushed" past the hyfax on the bottom.

The physics of a track and tension / take-up are NOT the same as a chain drive under load. In a sled, the track is what transfers the power to the ground... not transferring power to something else that transfers the power (like in a motorcyle with the sprocket/tire being driven).

With a loose track... the tunnel side of the track cycles thru a herky-jerky motion of going from banjo-string tight to ballooning out as you run with the inherrent loading and undloading of the drivetrain that a sled goes thru in accelleration, dealing with terrain and braking... even more exagerated by the large amount of weight that you added with the studs on your semi-long track ripsaw.

As you point out a properly adjusted track DOES rely on the track being pulled past the rear ider. A looser track cant do this all the time and this is what causes the problems... the loosness in the track has to go somewhere... that somewhere ends up being the distortion of the track as it is crammed past the hyfax or gets tripped up in the drivetrain. This distortion of the track lays the paddles down and tilts the clips on edge which can also accellerate hyfax wear.

As the track leaves the driver, a loose track will get bunched up at the front of the rail... in that situation the rails must strip the loose track from the driver and Force the track down along the rail/hyfax... A loose track does not get "pulled" around the rear idler like a properly tensioned track does.

In this age of single ply tracks, seen mostly on the mountain sleds, the belting of the track is not a rigid as a multi ply track.. they are even more susceptible to this bunching-up of the track as it leaves the drivers.

When the track bunches up between the driver and rail.. this is where the 'stabbing' occurs.

A ripsaw is a 2.52" pitch track (unless it is the 'lite" version at 2.86" pitch). These are much more rigid tracks to start with and much shorter.

I'm curious, If you don't like pow snow and only ride groomer/hardpack... why the longer 136" track? Also, since you are not concerned with weight... I would imagine that you have 8 or 10 bogie wheels along the skid too???


The best analogy of the bunching up that I can think of of is kind of like watching a drag racing tire "wrinkle" as it launches... not a direct analogy... but something that shows the kind of hook-up that a sled with good traction is getting.

11628017_4282c0d669.jpg


I run a 155" to 159" track, NO bogie wheels, standard Hyfax and Avid Drivers with trimmed rails. I run the Polaris Factory prescribed tension on the track. I have yet to stab a track or wear out a set of hyfax during the season but I do replace them long before they are needed at the beginning of each season. I have yet to see or hear about a 2008/09 Polaris IQR with standard combo-toothed drivers and short rail tips stabbing a track... and boy do they punish those sleds!

I have also never smoked a bearing on a driveshaft, but I have replaced them as part of PM on sleds over 2500 miles to protect my ride time on the sled... none of the drive shaft bearings removed on the end or in the case have ever been worn out. I have had jackshaft bearings go on me though, but have since switched out to a greasable PTO side setup and hope for better results there.

IMO, if a loose track gave better performance... the factory race teams would be running that on the snowcrossers and oval track sleds. In this never ending game of trying to outdo each other, the factories would not leave something as easy to fix on the table...again IMO.
 
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Its a 2.52 pitch, not light wieght.

Factory amount of boggie wheels.

Why 136 length?
Its not for traction or going in deep snow. The 136 just bridges the bumps better and gives a whole lot better ride. I have been runnin 136 for quite sometime now and will never go back to a 121. I have done alot of playing with the edge skid and revalving of the shocks and different types of oil.

Anything longer then a 136 doesn't seem to increase this benift.

My buddie bought a 04 switchback and I choose the prox. I made the prox a 136 right in the beginning.

My buddie really thought the lightwieght, uncoupled design would be some benifit. Less wieght.

After a veryshort time and never being able to keep up to us he found the skid to equall something worse then that of a late 70's skid in the bumps.

I put a 121 edge in his sled with 144'' tipped up rails. It rode about the same, but in some conditions pushed more then a 136. In the right conditions it really hooked up, he did run 150+ 1.45 studs on a 1.25 track, that track soon ripped apart.

The 136 is a little slower in the woods when on super groomed trails then a 121, but more often the woods are bumpy and the 136 works great.

Good point you brought up that you run deeper ug and longer then me, I can see them needing to be run tighter. But the 121, 136, 1.25 lug and smaller seem not to have a problem running loose.

Jack Struthers I see many people saying he knows his stuff. I have delt with Carls Cycle and after I recieved some of the poorest quality work that I have ever seen, I don't take to much to heart from what either one tells me after I recieved this product, it should have never went out the door.

I kinda take everyones opinion, do a lot of field testing and see what works best.

I know 1 thing for sure, if I brought any of my sleds to elevation, with a mountain setup, I'd be last and probably sink in 50 feet. It takes many years to dial in a sled for specific ridding.
 

1Mike900

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Asled, Just take it back out and replace it with a hex titanium one. That will even up the weight! Just kidding! Thankyou guy's for this thread, I am learning something new everytime it! I am always looking for ways to increase this areas efficiency, It is the most power robbing spot on any sled!

Mike
 
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FTXMOTORSPORTS

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Actually I have your jackshaft in the sled to get rid of the splined end and go back to a keyed end for the clutch. Worked perfect.

Going to the edge drive shaft was easy, just turn down the end and cut to length. The drivers were the pain getting them in the right spot.

I to wondered about the durability of the weld at the sprocket end, another reason I went to the hex.

There is still no way I will cut the rails, then have to run the track tighter so it doesn't stab. I run my tracks as loose as possible, its great for fuel economy, acceleratrion and midrange pull. As far as a loose track loosing top speed? My twin still does 110 and the triple xcr was doing 123mph with ease with a track hanging 1.5''.

As far as the hex being heavier, I'm a flatlander at low elevation and hate powder and deep snow. I like packed trails. So the extra 1/4 pound or whatever it is doesn't mater to me.



Thanks again for all the input, and again, nice jackshaft.



Ps.

Sell your jackshafts with the little round ring that keeps the rotor from going to far. They are a pain to get off the stock shaft.

Al, good point about the rotor ring on our jackshaft....most don't have the special tool required...we'll address that in the future.

the issue with ice build up on the hydro shaft was less about weight and more about the ice rings lifting the track off of the drivers....was fairly isolated due to certain weather and snow conditions needed for it to happen.

and my .02 on the track tension...I realize that grass/dirt is different than snow but in our years of testing with timing lights for grass drags, a snugger track was ALWAYS faster than a looser track. Didn't matter how much power , how much traction or how long the track was... it maintained its rotational shape better and et's dropped. Lots of great points made above about this subject.

curt
 
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akrevrider

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Avid combo drivers, trimmed rails and a 153" PC

I'm running the 2 AVID Combo Drivers, trimmed rails, proper tension on the track and NO anti stab wheels..

With the Combo drivers, there is no reason to run a center driver.

I do not plan to port the 3" pitch, Arctic cat Power Claw 153" 90 Durometer track.

No pix yet as I do not have the track yet... I'll post some up later this summer.

mountainhorse,

How is the latest project sled coming along? any pix of it yet?

Please post them up we're interested in how you trimmed the rails.

Thanks in advance.

akrevrider
 
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akrevrider

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pix of a Powerclaw on a D-8Cw/ trimmed rails

:)
I'm running the 2 AVID Combo Drivers, trimmed rails, proper tension on the track and NO anti stab wheels..

With the Combo drivers, there is no reason to run a center driver.

I do not plan to port the 3" pitch, Arctic cat Power Claw 153" 90 Durometer track.

No pix yet as I do not have the track yet... I'll post some up later this summer.

Mountainhorse,

Can you please post up a couple of pix of the track installed & trimmed rails?

My 153 PC is on the way today thanks to Freeagent for a great deal.

Thanks,

akrevrider
 
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:)

Mountainhorse,

Can you please post up a couple of pix of the track installed & trimmed rails?

My 153 PC is on the way today akrevrider

Don't want to hyjack thread, just wondering why you would go to 3.0 pitch and gain vibration (all 3.0 vibrate some worst than others)
Is your style of riding more to a 2.25 paddle instead of a 2.5 Camo Extreme?
Have you ridden a PC downhill after it has 2 to 3 hundred miles on it and the paddles start to lay over? (I have it's like a A20 in hill climb position)
I've heard the HCR is better than the original PC but no 162 yet.:beer;

just curious.
 

mountainhorse

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All good questions... here is my view... IMO...

I Have noticed the vibration... but only when the drivers were 7 tooth... some of which rub on suspension components when run this way.

The 8 tooth drivers, which I will be using, dont seem to do this... from my experience.

I think that the 80 duros may "lay over" more than the 90's ...

The "laying over" is a function of the Track Tension, rider wieght, sled power, setup, riding style and terrain...as much as it is the properties of the track.

An track that is not tight enough will allow the track to deform under load and the paddles will lay down and give you no traction.

I doubt that the 162's will be offered in the 90 Duro (HCR duro)....
I hear that the 141 will be though. \

I did get a chance to spend 3 days on a 2009 153 (80 duro, non-HCR) RTR turbo at Burandts BCA last March that had over 1500 miles on it... I did not notice any lack of downhill control compared to my Camo Ext from last season... I also did not notice any pronounced vibration from that sled/track combo...
 
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mountainhorse

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As a side note... I did ride a PowerClaw M8 late season last year in California "sierra cement".... the downhill was a magic carpet ride... untill we re-tensioned the track to proper factory specs...much more trackable... Night and day difference... and the minor vibration went away as well.

ANY of these single ply track require a vigilant eye on the track tension... That goes for the PC, Polaris... or any other track for that matter... I would recommend every ride till it hits 500 miles, re-tension the track...

All of this IMO...
 
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akrevrider

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80 duro PC

It is my understanding that Arctic Cat increased the duro slightly on the standard PC for the 2010 tracks. I usually ride in deep powder for most of the season until the spring so I went with the 80 duro for that reason.

Most of the experts have recommended the Avid 8 tooth combos so that is what I'm going with on the drivers.

I never had the ice build up on the center driver to cause the vibration like some folks had complained about on the D-8s.
 
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