P22 Clutch
- Thread starter RanOutofTalent
- Start date
- Oct 14, 2008
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Maybe Polaris wanted to be a copyCAT.
In addition, the bolt seems to be the primary isssue! Hahaha.
I don’t even know why I am so so funny, comin’ in clutch and all!
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The basics of what's going on here with the bolt. There are more problems than this with this clutch.
Embarrassed to say I don't know if this P22 will be on the wife's new 650 or not?? Hate to have he bouncing around and the clutch fly apart and put her in a sticky wicket
I think it's just Boost and 9Rs? I'd have to look it up to be sure. I'd wonder if we don't at least see a revised clutch bolt, but I doubt the bolt alone could be a total fix. It seems the roller hub is the main thing driving the design where the bolt has to hold the movable sheave on: there probably isn't room to use a beefier bolt, and making the hub bigger would throw off the gearing (like starting in a higher gear). The P22 definitely has advantages, but I'm not sure the durability is there without a major re-think. It'd be nice to see them pull a rabbit out of the hat on this one; at least no one is losing any riding time at the moment!
M
Isn´t BRP clutches kind of the same with the bolt holding everything together? The difference being that the have a coned surface to help keep everything together? Would a coned area need the clutch to be wider and that's why Polaris didn´t go that way? Or is it something else that makes them not wanting to do that?
What are the "definite advantages" of the P-22? Other than the no adjust belt deflection.
Yes, the doo P-drive clutch is also held together by the clutch bolt. The difference is the P-drive is a tapered fit that takes some work to get apart like the taper fit of the clutch onto the crankshaft.
That is obvious when you look at the design. The bushings are bigger and spread apart more so twisting at the weights is greatly reduced. The clutch is 1.2 lbs lighter too and with it's open design will cool better. The thing I don't understand is what the difference between it and the clutch on the side x sides? I heard it was a new clutch for 2022 and that is why it is called a P-22. So what is the Razor clutch called as it has been around for a few years?
- Oct 14, 2008
- 3,112
- 3,873
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- 60
No.
S
Yes. But both the "newer" TRAs and the new P-drive have a taper fit between moveable and fixed halves. Older TRAs had splines as the P22 and besides the splines being worn out eventually, mainly caused by low idling, there were few problems.
A high grade 12mm, och half inch, bolt can take many many tonnes force before failure. Just blaming the knock from the spring returning the clutch to idle must be totally wrong.
If, however, the support surface(s) between inner and outer clutch halves are too short, or doesn't fit together properly, enabling the outer half to "wiggle" or roll a tiny bit on the inner part that would make the bolt's life a lot worse.
IF it can be made to work, a easily split clutch is really nice to have. The old TRAs were brilliant to work with. Just knock the bolt loose, grab the outer sheave and pull it off, close the hood and bring the "important part" of the clutch inside to the bench for service/tuning etc. Reinstalling it didn't even requier a torqu wrench, just pop it on, hold the clutch with on hand and tighten with a standard wrench with the other hand. (if one felt a bit cowardly you whacked the wrench with a plastic club a few times).
It was a PITA when the 4 stroke introduction brought the dual tapered TRAs, Oh how we swore!!!!........
I believe this is contributing to the problem on the P22 bolt failure. The inner part splines are steel, while the outer splines are aluminum. When cold they are a fairly tight fit, but once heated up the aluminum outer spline expends more than the steel inner spline and you have a very slight “wiggle”. That movement (wiggle) combined with the pounding are what’s causing the failure, IMO.
bean counters would just put a p-85 on them all.
is this clutch slimmer like the new cat clutch? that is the main advantage i would think moving forward, the sleds can get slimmer.
the roller bearing is attempt to increase belt life and dumb down maintenance, like cat has been trying to do for years. i think its a good idea but ultimately leads to failure, another bearing to fail, add weight, expand and contract at a different rate....
the p85 and 16-17 team clutch on the cats were not broken but they stick out too far for modern bodywork.
the spider legged clutch cover looks cool but i dont think thats a good idea, the legs can flex, especially if they contact the side panel, easily catastrophic.
I could see the aftermarket coming up with a better cover and bolt design.
didnt the TRA on the doos have sort of a cushioned bolt?
is this clutch slimmer like the new cat clutch? that is the main advantage i would think moving forward, the sleds can get slimmer.
the roller bearing is attempt to increase belt life and dumb down maintenance, like cat has been trying to do for years. i think its a good idea but ultimately leads to failure, another bearing to fail, add weight, expand and contract at a different rate....
the p85 and 16-17 team clutch on the cats were not broken but they stick out too far for modern bodywork.
the spider legged clutch cover looks cool but i dont think thats a good idea, the legs can flex, especially if they contact the side panel, easily catastrophic.
I could see the aftermarket coming up with a better cover and bolt design.
didnt the TRA on the doos have sort of a cushioned bolt?
- Oct 14, 2008
- 3,112
- 3,873
- 113
- 60
Naw, the bean counters are involved every step of the way. Poo had to keep up with the roller bearing Cat clutch. My guess is the Clutch idear guys had a few beers with the beanie counter crew. They got drunk and the beanies convinced the designer to go lighter, weaker and compromise safety.
Some where at Poo, some lone employee is saying “I told you it wasn’t gonna work.” Enter stop ride notice. Hahaha
And how bout that dumb cover? I look at it and I make a sucking inhaling sound through my teeth. The towers need to be directly linked through a round or 6point septagon. )is that even a word?). The tie together part can’t be in a “v.” Hope that makes sense. Anyhoo, the cover is dumb design and it is easy to see the lack of adding strength to the clutch as a whole.
Why do clutch disasters happen everytime a new clutch comes out? Like holy moly man. Are they clutch dummies trained by old time clutch dummies? Does every clutch design person need to be fired and new blood brought in? Sheesh! Even BRP kinda got close after 4 years with the 200 degree belt temp, need new high temp resistant belt and ventilation p-drive wobble clutch.
Dismount soapbox.
This presidential clutch speech was delivered under the influence of edibles.
Some where at Poo, some lone employee is saying “I told you it wasn’t gonna work.” Enter stop ride notice. Hahaha
And how bout that dumb cover? I look at it and I make a sucking inhaling sound through my teeth. The towers need to be directly linked through a round or 6point septagon. )is that even a word?). The tie together part can’t be in a “v.” Hope that makes sense. Anyhoo, the cover is dumb design and it is easy to see the lack of adding strength to the clutch as a whole.
Why do clutch disasters happen everytime a new clutch comes out? Like holy moly man. Are they clutch dummies trained by old time clutch dummies? Does every clutch design person need to be fired and new blood brought in? Sheesh! Even BRP kinda got close after 4 years with the 200 degree belt temp, need new high temp resistant belt and ventilation p-drive wobble clutch.
Dismount soapbox.
This presidential clutch speech was delivered under the influence of edibles.
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Not when you can buy a $90 Chinese clutch.$$$$$
S
I would be much surprised if they payed anything close to $90 for the clutch!!! Try 20-25 at most but I wouldn't be surprised if it is $12....
Ordinary people have no idea what components prices are if you order for a large factory.
I'm guessing component cost for the entire sled, (development not included, just component cost), is around $1000-1500 for a top of the line model, slightly less for a entry level one. Add assembly, development etc and it will have cost double that ready to ship.
It would be interesting to know but there is no way they could build a complete sled for 1K-1.5K. I would have to say the materials alone might equal your amount defiantly surpass it by the time the material is processed. They use a fair amount of vendor parts (they don't manufacture) per sled as well, the track alone wholesale (polaris' price from vendor) probably half the cost we buy them for would contribute to $400-500 bucks alone that's just one part. Labor, overhead and R&D alone would surpass 1K-1.5K in a hurry. I heard a new car is sold for around twice the amount they cost to build. So I'd have to guess a 15K dollar sled would most likely cost minimum 6-7K to build plus the dealer cut and transportation.
