I wish polaris would run those shocks on the RMK's !!!!
Upgrade And Info 2009 Dragon Walker Evans "air" Shock Changes
- Thread starter mountainhorse
- Start date
S
I wonder how one of those skids would work lengthen'd out? So many of the turbo guys have wheelie problems and are turning to a M-10. The M-10 is a coupled skid as is that skid. I know the old edge shorty skids wouldnt work worth a crap past 144".
Some one follow my rambling train of thought here?
Some one follow my rambling train of thought here?
N
Ron,
I certainly did not mean to phrase that as a put down.... not my intent at all. If you feel that it was a put down in any way, my apologies.
You put out some of the best info on this site that is helpful to a lot of people... AND we can "agree to disagree" without issue.
I did say
And I meant it to agree with you.
When you said that:
I simply was pointing out that you could not separate the improvements you were feeling as being the just the sway bar because your demo/proto sleds, in addition to the 2009 sway bars, had the 2009 shock valving and pressures and that your upgraded units with the coilovers or Carl’s upgraded settings did not have the exact same "mix" of front and rear setup as the 2009's with the only exception being the new fwd mounted sway bar. Small pressure changes, oil level changes, piston flow characteristics and valving are a very "fine line" of balancing that takes a while to dial-in... The subtle changes ARE very important.
I have also said all along that the WE Airs are a good BASIC shock, but no where near the sophistication of a Zero, Float, ARS, Walker coil overs or other top notch shocks
I is my understanding, in talking to some factory contacts at both Polaris and Walker that all of the dealer demos and the factory validation sleds had all of the new shock changes in them... which should have included the demo sleds that your group rode.
Walkers’ suggestion to use the 225 psi and 5cc more oil was posted up on the old forum in late 2006 when the first RAW Dragons were showing problems...(many of which can be related to low pressure due to leakage or under pressurization)
Polaris installs OEM Walker for many reasons, one of the big ones is price.... and willingness to pro-actively tailor to Polaris' needs.
Carl’s is a top-top notch service and performance center with some of the best performance people in the busines , with no doubt, and I have been putting forward their info on this thread... even since the first post.
In fact, with Carl's EXTENSIVE knowlede and testing of the Fox Zero shocks on the the RMK chassis and their super tight relationship with Polaris in the R&D of our mountain sleds, I think it's sad that Polaris does not draw on this knowledge and use the Fox's on there sleds from the factory... especially in the top of the pile Dragon models. The custom valved Zero's that I've ridden on from Carls fitted to the skis and rear skid were a big improvement in how the sled rode.... IMO because Carl's set these up for use as a "system" of shocks and springs... not just some hodge podge assembly of different components.... they are very good at that... evidenced in how well their big bore kits kick-azz and their full suspension packages work.
Polaris knew about TCP, Carl’s and others use of 225 psi of nitrogen as well as Walkers input on this but never specified this in their order with Walker for the 2008 models. Walker knew about this and was telling Dragon owners that took the time to call in to first confirm that the shock had 215 psi and if you wanted a bit stiffer ride, to up it to 225psi after trying the 215 (since many reached the customer with sub 200psi readings as new deliveries)
I would have liked to compare this Demo of a 2009 Dragon (photo) with new rear shocks and previous years sway bar (from the factory) to the one that you rode with the new shocks AND new sway bar to see the difference in the handling. That would truly be a good way to see the any differences related to the sway bar alone.
Early 2009 Demo D-RMK sled with the original sway bar.
If the 2009 demo/proto sleds that your group was riding were new enough to have the new style sway bar, according to my contacts, it would have ALSO had the extensively changed front-track shock (pistons, valving and oil volume) as well as the front ski shocks that have an additional 10psi in them [compared to the previous years] and that that pressure setting in all of the "Air" shocks went through higher levels of quality control. To be fair, this is second hand knowledge in that I didn't install or witness the shocks being installed on your demo machines, but certainly not 2nd hand "rumor mill" varied info.
It would be hard to make a fair evaluation that the new sway bar was THE major player or the shocks were because the new sway bar and shocks were installed.
I don't know what will make a difference, in truth, but this is what I base my comments on....
I have ridden, on my own sled, with WE Airs that had the new piston/60cc of oil/and the 2009 valve stack in the front-track. I also ran the ski shocks at 225 psi with and without the new piston and preloaded valve stack. The "before and after of this setup were very distinctive" in how it handled... the diving was much less prevalent as well as better overall handling and bump characteristics without the wallowing feeling that I noticed before the change. For my style of riding, in 20 degrees F + temps, this was the best setup that I've found on the Walkers.... I never did try the lighter oil, but with our temps in the Sierras I never felt the need.
IMO... that difference was related to the lower level of stiction that the preloaded valve stack has as well as a different emulsion volume. I belive this stiction (also prevelant in Motocross/MTB forks) is one of the major factors in the "lurching" with the Walkers. This stiction seemed much more pronounced at lower levels of pressure in the shocks... I tried 200 psi for "kicks".
I sold my last set of Walker pistons/valves to Outlaw Addict on the 4m here... and since sold all of the WE Airs as they didn't perform the way that I was hoping.... again going along with my contention since that the WE Air shocks are a good shock for a mountain specific sled that is not "trailed" much or used often in the rough.
I tried a Carl’s zero pro in the rear-track as well as a re-valved Ryde FX clicker in conjunction with the Walker Air front track.... I liked the Ryde clicker better, but prob not a fair comp to the Zero as the Ryde was a remote resi shock.
My favorite setup was actually a set of the snow checked Ryde FX coilovers with Renton springs front and rear, all revalved...and being a lighter rider, the rebound was of special concern. I tried the EVOLs on the skis... still have them and will compare them to ARS this season... I have high hopes for the coil-over shocks
I'm hoping for good results out of the ARS-FX shocks with trip rates on the ski and the 2009 Holz/Float on the rear with the add-on EVOL chamber and a DSC remote clicker.
If you were riding the pre dealer/customer demo 2009 sleds in Jan/Feb... it is possible that you rode one without the new shock setups in it but with the new sway bar... I will certainly conceed that.
I can’t remember if it was Walker that was making claims that didn't pan out or if it was the marketing team in Roseau when they made the sales brochures for the sleds.
IMO... I think the Dragon RMK's should come with comp adjustable WE needle coilover shocks like the SP has on the front (in the RMK length of course) and the WE needle coilover in the front-track position.... IMO... but those would have cost Polaris WAY more than they are willing to spend on shocks for an already expensive sled to build (long tracks, big motors, wide skis, light weight parts)
The important thing is that they seem to be making good sleds for 2009 as evidenced by your rides on the demo/proto sleds... That’s the good thing...
Like I've said in PM's to you and in posts here, I respect your opinion and hope to see more of it... it can only help the "family" here on the 4M.
Be well my friend!
Happy 4th to everyone.....
from my under standing the new sway bar is the same they just took out more of the roll in the chassie (sp) and they john from premires polaris said that it would fit on the older drangons same with the new bulkhead
Hi MH
In your arseanault of pictures would you have an Assault rear skid picture like the 121 sp picture you posted and if yes could you please post it
Im glad you boys got it sorted out and we can all agree that next year we will experience first hand what the changes will bring
In your arseanault of pictures would you have an Assault rear skid picture like the 121 sp picture you posted and if yes could you please post it
Im glad you boys got it sorted out and we can all agree that next year we will experience first hand what the changes will bring
D
Hey MountainHorse...I just got a call from Walker Evans and they told me for my 08 (its in the shop today) that the IFS can go to 225 and the front track shock to 217 and the rear shock at 210..all are plus or minus 10psi specs. and make sure that you hold pressure for at least 5 seconds.
I questioned them twice as that looked like 09 specs and they assure me that it was ok..I guess they are utilizing the +/- spec for the IFS..now iof there is a large Pop sound in Washington you know what happened!
I questioned them twice as that looked like 09 specs and they assure me that it was ok..I guess they are utilizing the +/- spec for the IFS..now iof there is a large Pop sound in Washington you know what happened!
D
I read and re-read all posts and didnt see any text as a "putdown" by anybody. Just another persons view. Lets all keep in mind that in emails and forums we are always assuming "the tone" to which something is written. If we are in a certain frame of mind we often assume that someone else is the same...most time it is not that way. Nice to see that you both came to an understanding.
Now back to the two questions on Rons 08 shocks..what can you run them at..I am a 235 lb 6'3" with out and gear and need the higher pressure but dont want to blow anything either.. thanks to both of you for all the tech info and MH for the awesome graphics! Keep up the good work guys..as a new Polaris convert from Skidoo it has been paramount in getting up to speed on Polaris and the new Dragon I have been learning to understand. A different beast than a Skidoo thats for sure...I like it!
Now back to the two questions on Rons 08 shocks..what can you run them at..I am a 235 lb 6'3" with out and gear and need the higher pressure but dont want to blow anything either.. thanks to both of you for all the tech info and MH for the awesome graphics! Keep up the good work guys..as a new Polaris convert from Skidoo it has been paramount in getting up to speed on Polaris and the new Dragon I have been learning to understand. A different beast than a Skidoo thats for sure...I like it!
The IFS at 225 is old hat...the charging methods are important...
Its a good idea to charge the shock to 190 psi... let it sit for 2 days and then take it up to final pressure..... holing for 5-10 secs like you said
You wont be able to get more than +/- 5ps with standard filling equipment...
Increasing the pressure from 200 to 210 psi on the back side of the IFP in the rear-track shock is effectively a cheap way stiffen up comression side damping...but be carefull on this pressure... too much and you will easily turn that sled into a buckboard or start blowing out seals.
On the WE Air shocks... be carefull on the pressure as well... a little more may be good...a lot more may be VERY bad...
Goood luck.
Its a good idea to charge the shock to 190 psi... let it sit for 2 days and then take it up to final pressure..... holing for 5-10 secs like you said
You wont be able to get more than +/- 5ps with standard filling equipment...
Increasing the pressure from 200 to 210 psi on the back side of the IFP in the rear-track shock is effectively a cheap way stiffen up comression side damping...but be carefull on this pressure... too much and you will easily turn that sled into a buckboard or start blowing out seals.
On the WE Air shocks... be carefull on the pressure as well... a little more may be good...a lot more may be VERY bad...
Goood luck.
D
Thanks for the advise. When they checked mine they said it is hard to tell exactly where they started at because as soon as you put the needle in you loose some pressure. They said my fronts were at approx. 160 and the rear at 180. If I dont do the second fill technique like you mentioned how much "Ball park" figure, PSI will be dropped after they cool and are at riding temps?
There is a temp/pressure chart that I need to get my hands on....
I'll post it up if I can.
I'll post it up if I can.
T
i am pretty new to the air shocks in sleds.
I have always yanked my sway bar and tightened the springs up on the old style shocks. How would you do that with these walker evans air shocks on an 09\d8?
thanks
tim
I have always yanked my sway bar and tightened the springs up on the old style shocks. How would you do that with these walker evans air shocks on an 09\d8?
thanks
tim
Getting a lot of PM's lately on this stuff.... ttt
That's because you are the man when it comes to all this technical info. Keep up the good work. We all appreciate it.
T
Just had my 07 WE front shocks done as spec'd by WE email - told me 230 psi, for 10 seconds and 95 cc of fluid. We had trouble with them seeping oil, so we pulled them apart again checked the seals different manufacturer on the new seals then the originals. But cleaned everything put them together again, and seem great but really reluctant to take out in the cold weather we have (-20 C) as I don't want to blow one. Ordered a set of Floats yesterday just to be safe.
I have changed my thoughts on the sway bar on the 2009 to agree with Ron in this post. The 2005-2008 sway bar setup has a lot of "stiction" in it and is not smooth moving thru the A-arm/swaybar bushings which wear and make it "klunky" in operation. It takes a bit for the sway bar to move past the "klunk" in the bushings and this causes the sled to lurch and dive a bit.
When the bushings are in good shape it works fairly well.
You can make the 2005-2008 sway-bar-setup slide easier in the a-arm plastic bushings by rounding the ends of the swaybar and putting some decent trailer bearing grease in the cup every 3-4 rides.
For as cheap as they are... replace the sway bar bushings in the A-arms and at the bulkhead if they are worn or have high mileage.
When the bushings are in good shape it works fairly well.
You can make the 2005-2008 sway-bar-setup slide easier in the a-arm plastic bushings by rounding the ends of the swaybar and putting some decent trailer bearing grease in the cup every 3-4 rides.
For as cheap as they are... replace the sway bar bushings in the A-arms and at the bulkhead if they are worn or have high mileage.
W
I got an 09 and it only cane with 200 in the front I had them bump it up to 230 and it's a lot better
ttt
B
ttt for a great information thread
T
I'm new to WE, and ride in extreme cold. This blowout issue.... is it failure of the packings? I assume that the packings are standard rubber. Has anyone tried, brain fart here, Teflon? or what ever the redish material packings are? something like in a high pressure fuel or hydrualic system. I'll be doing my own shocks, or try at least. learn by doing!
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