Understanding Titanium (Lightweight build)

[xpturbo600]

Ti pins have no coating to protect from abrasion...They are wearing faster than the steel pins... With those pins so far from center, I couldn't not run Ti there.

If you are having a wear issue, consider using a WPC treatment on new pins before install. WPC treatment helps reduce the coefficient of friction by changing the surface grain structure without causing any dimensional variation after treatment. The method is similar to shot peening but on a micro level, so the the surface is harder and more resistant to galling following treatment. If you are not familiar, that gets used in a lot of Bonneville salt flat race vehicles with success.

 

[sno*jet]

Hey Sno, The stock cam arm pins are roughly Gr5. Lots of guys running Ti here without issue but most Ti pins have no coating to protect from abrasion. TJ cautioned me on this (I bet he has a set of coated Ti pins) and I've been keeping an eye on mine. They are wearing faster than the steel pins... With those pins so far from center, I couldn't not run Ti there. Plus they're in a P22 so they'll probably end up on the forest floor before they wear out.

so they should flex about the same amount as stock then? talking microns or whatever obviously, but my reason sticking to steel there was I understood Ti to be more flexible than steel, and any flex in the pin could lead to wearing the hole in the aluminum larger.

hey boondocker where can I find those PP ski bolts?

 

[KootenayD]

so they should flex about the same amount as stock then? talking microns or whatever obviously, but my reason sticking to steel there was I understood Ti to be more flexible than steel, and any flex in the pin could lead to wearing the hole in the aluminum larger.

hey boondocker where can I find those PP ski bolts?

Those pins are almost exclusively in shear. I bet TJ knows how much force those weights generate at 8500rpm, but I sure don't. It's a lot. I quickly pulled up the shear values and a Gr8 steel bolt is about 90ksi where the Ti bolt is 80ksi. I still can't imagine there would be more than a thou or two deflection while under full load. I think a majority of the weight is bearing on the roller at high RPM. The steel pins are about 10% stronger in this application with better wear characteristics. 180% heavier though...

 

[xpturbo600]

Those pins are almost exclusively in shear. I bet TJ knows how much force those weights generate at 8500rpm, but I sure don't. It's a lot. I quickly pulled up the shear values and a Gr8 steel bolt is about 90ksi where the Ti bolt is 80ksi. I still can't imagine there would be more than a thou or two deflection while under full load. I think a majority of the weight is bearing on the roller at high RPM. The steel pins are about 10% stronger in this application with better wear characteristics. 180% heavier though...

Earlier, you implied that you were a Ti expert. Now, you don't know how to calculate the force on the pin? Something is not adding up, so let me provide the assist.

Force = (Mass×Velocity²)/Radius

That obviously gives you the force applied on the pin. Then you need to calculate the force across the cross sectional shear area. If that exceeds, then you will break the bolt. Otherwise, you can use the load distribution across the surface area of the pin longitudinally to back into the deflection. Given the pin ends are fixed across some distance between the pin supports.

 

[xpturbo600]

If the statics problem is more dynamic, then you need to account for the opposing forces and their angles in equilibrium. That means you need to account for the dynamic load of the primary spring at full shift that gets distributed equally through the movable clutch sheave to each individual clutch arm. That opposing force offsets the load on the pin based on the angle of the force vector applied through the angle of the clutch arm at full shift.

Give it a shot and report back with what you find.

 

[KootenayD]

Earlier, you implied that you were a Ti expert. Now, you don't know how to calculate the force on the pin? Something is not adding up, so let me provide the assist.

Force = (Mass×Velocity²)/Radius

That obviously gives you the force applied on the pin. Then you need to calculate the force across the cross sectional shear area. If that exceeds, then you will break the bolt. Otherwise, you can use the load distribution across the surface area of the pin longitudinally to back into the deflection. Given the pin ends are fixed across some distance between the pin supports.

Haha, you're tying two granny knots with a loop and it ain't happenin!

I'm not sure why I'm writing this but my fingers are just going for it... Even if you had all of the variables sorted (which is completely insane), this would take hours to manually calculate for a single RPM value. In a mechanical design setting, this would be modelled and those values could be graphed. I don't have those models and I'm not interested in drafting it. Oh, and it has precisely 5/4ths of f*** all to do with the original thread.

The logical solution is clear. Load sled, headlamps, snack. Drive 30 minutes... smash trees til midnight!

 

[xpturbo600]

Haha, you're tying two granny knots with a loop and it ain't happenin!

I'm not sure why I'm writing this but my fingers are just going for it... Even if you had all of the variables sorted (which is completely insane), this would take hours to manually calculate for a single RPM value. In a mechanical design setting, this would be modelled and those values could be graphed. I don't have those models and I'm not interested in drafting it. Oh, and it has precisely 5/4ths of f*** all to do with the original thread.

The logical solution is clear. Load sled, headlamps, snack. Drive 30 minutes... smash trees til midnight!

The statics problem is easy. You just need to pull the spring, roll the clutch to the full shift position, and measure the ramp angle at full shift. Then, setup the statics problem given your spring and gram weights. That is a basic statics problem you can solve in minutes. To build a model would take hours if not days. Sounds like you didn't go to school for that.

 

[KootenayD]

Start a new thread called "Engineering" and I will meet you over there. Present the problem and I'll start measuring and drafting the model we need to examine each area that needs to be calculated. I'll present a few more problems that haven't so far been considered but if you're willing to spend some time on it, I'll do it. Let's clean up this thread so it remains relevant.

 

[xpturbo600]

Start a new thread called "Engineering" and I will meet you over there. Present the problem and I'll start measuring and drafting the model we need to examine each area that needs to be calculated. I'll present a few more problems that haven't so far been considered but if you're willing to spend some time on it, I'll do it. Let's clean up this thread so it remains relevant.

I am happy to let this thread resume. No problem.

But, I am not sure what purpose an engineering thread would serve. So, I have to decline. Based on your responses, I can tell your background is not in engineering, but you do seem to have some understanding material properties and modeling. Maybe you are just starting out or you work with engineers in some capacity. For me, I am not willing to donate my spare time to solve more engineering problems for people when I get paid for my expertise. Personally, I periodically read through forums to disengage from work, so increasing my workload probono is of no interest to me.

 

[sno*jet]

@boondocker97 where do I find those bolts for the SLP skis? didn't see them at race tech. off topic but also can't find the aluminum saddles ZRP used to make. Far out from center, good place to drop a couple grams lol

 

[boondocker97]

@boondocker97 where do I find those bolts for the SLP skis? didn't see them at race tech. off topic but also can't find the aluminum saddles ZRP used to make. Far out from center, good place to drop a couple grams lol

I got the bolts, nuts, and washers from RaceTech. There's no "kit" for it, but I measured the length of the bolts and got the closest replacement. I found the order in my email and it looks like this is what I got. I also ordered the bolts for the factory Cat G2 skis separate. The Arctic Cat ski bolt kit they have includes a 135mm long bolt which may work for the trail skis, but would be too short on the mountain ski.



As far as the ZRP saddles for the SLP skis I tried to get a set too, but they discontinued them just before I called to order mine. That was probably two years ago. I think I talked to Gage and he said there was much debate in the shop about it because he was one of the guys that used them too. They were very time intensive to make and had other things that were more profitable to keep moving through the CNC mill. They dropped 1lb per ski which would bring the weight down in line with the stock ones at least.

On the skags you can get aluminum nuts from Pro-Bolt, cut off the excess thread above the nuts, and center drill the studs down a ways with a 3/16 drill bit. Don't use aluminum nuts on the actual ski bolt that holds the ski to the spindle though. They get loose and then it wobbles stuff out.

 

[sno*jet]

Awesome thank you
looks like I need to email them a request for those x100 units with nuts. don't really see a need for washers with the flanges they have.
Think I'll do their lower a-arm bolts too what the hell, this might have to wait till summer when I'm working 6 days a week and enjoy little expensive treats in the mail lol. It's mostly just a polish item to me more than the weight. Hate parts that rust.
I run a 1/4" plate of plastic under my saddle so not much skag thread left to cut off. I shoulda ordered those saddles when I was e-mailing them last year about them. I was suggesting that they make them 1 or 1.5" taller so basically does same thing as longer spindles. I thought they'd be a hit seeing how many cat guys run SLPs. They didn't think so

 

[boondocker97]

Looks like they have them in stock right now. https://racetechtitanium.com/product/titanium-m10x1-25x100-hex-head-flange-bolt/

Alternative Impact offered a 32pc front end bolt kit for Cats that was $200. Looks like it's unavailable now too. Saved exactly 1lb. I wasn't crazy about some of the bolts they supplied with it that were full thread in some of the locations, but I haven't bent or broken one yet.

 

[sno*jet]

well shoot, I was just looking in their cat section https://racetechtitanium.com/product-category/misc-vehicles/snowmobile/arctic-cat/

Ordering now! F it.

appreciated

think I'll do the non-lightened.

 

[KootenayD]

Pro-Bolt includes an insane amount of detail in their bolt listings and search filters! Makes it easy to ensure you don't have threads where they don't belong. Sadly, they don't have this...

 

[madmax]

@boondocker97 where do I find those bolts for the SLP skis? didn't see them at race tech. off topic but also can't find the aluminum saddles ZRP used to make. Far out from center, good place to drop a couple grams lol

Save yourself a lot of money and just use the Polaris ski. They are lighter to start with and easier to find Ti hardware for.

 

[boondocker97]

Save yourself a lot of money and just use the Polaris ski. They are lighter to start with and easier to find Ti hardware for.

That is true, but won't handle the same for those that still want a more aggressive ski.

 

[sno*jet]

I like that I can take a ski off and on in about 30 seconds with slp. Also get about 3 years before replacement rubbers not sure about Polaris