Front end pushing on 2016 TS W/TSS?

[honkuscracker]

All righty fellas, I'm looking for help with my 2016 TS with TSS. It is an ST mounted on a 2013 KTM 450sxf. I was in DEEP, light, powder yesterday and felt like the front end was really twitchy, unresponsive, and pushy. Felt like I was on the verge of tipping over the entire day, which I did, lots... I also noticed that if I leaned into a turn at all I could not get back upright, the front end just washed out every time. Was it just the super light snow (20 degrees F)? We don't typically have snow this light and deep so I can't compare it to last year where I had a 2015 ST with fixed strut on the same bike. I followed the instructions for install. I have stock springs in the front end with 10 clicks out on both comp and rebound. The handlebar risers are in the rearmost holes. The forks have 2 heavy lines (10 light) showing above the top of the clamps. I have heavier springs in a box, just need to get them in. The TSS had 300psi as I was a little worried about breaking a chain I thought I'd run it at a higher psi to start. I only used about 1/2"-3/4" of rear shock travel. I tried adjusting the pivot-arm-limiters and having them all the way in felt somewhat better. I was only able to ride my 2015 kit a handful of times last year and never in snow this deep and light. Thanks for your input and Merry Christmas!

 

[CATSLEDMAN1]

pushing snow bike

1st I don't have a 2016 with air shock so I don't have a magic button to push to help.

What I can say is that experimenting with strut length and suspension settings the last few years I have found that:

as you shorten the strut or run a softer strut shock setting , the front end will tend to push, the front of the track will tend to dig and even with the 2.5 track you will loose a lot of traction in the snow and the bike will feel tippy and hard to hold unright even in deep snow during slow going. with just fixed strut one inch adjustement in length will be huge.

So last sunday my new shock strut I built was to0 soft. In my shop I measured 14.875 inches from seat bolt to a bolt holding my side cover to the frame. At the truck when I unloaded with me on the bike sag was 14.3 or there abouts. 10" fluff on bumpy trail the shock travel of about 1.2 as you know was a greatly improved ride, railing old berms, bouncing in and out of sled track, all good, besy ever. I was concerned though because as we climbed I could feel a loss of traction railing up and down road cuts and out in deeper snow railing road corners in 4 WOT.

By the time I was up in 18" of fluff on 3' base and out in the trees the bike was hard to ride off trail and really poor traction. Checking sag it had gone from the 14.875 in the shop, me /gear/snow on frame/ mogul mashing , sag was 13.5 inches. I could'n really get up under seat to measure how much that was sagging the shock its selft, I would guess about 3/4 inch or better. So at lunch we slipped the soldid strut back in out in the deep.......w0w wow wow. Not the same bike.......not even close to same bike. Went from near helpless to powder monster.

So I have work to do for shocks for our three bikes. I have had this experience several times the last four years on the kits we have build when trying to find an optimal strut length compromise.

 

[wwillf01]

All righty fellas, I'm looking for help with my 2016 TS with TSS. It is an ST mounted on a 2013 KTM 450sxf. I was in DEEP, light, powder yesterday and felt like the front end was really twitchy, unresponsive, and pushy. Felt like I was on the verge of tipping over the entire day, which I did, lots... I also noticed that if I leaned into a turn at all I could not get back upright, the front end just washed out every time. Was it just the super light snow (20 degrees F)? We don't typically have snow this light and deep so I can't compare it to last year where I had a 2015 ST with fixed strut on the same bike. I followed the instructions for install. I have stock springs in the front end with 10 clicks out on both comp and rebound. The handlebar risers are in the rearmost holes. The forks have 2 heavy lines (10 light) showing above the top of the clamps. I have heavier springs in a box, just need to get them in. The TSS had 300psi as I was a little worried about breaking a chain I thought I'd run it at a higher psi to start. I only used about 1/2"-3/4" of rear shock travel. I tried adjusting the pivot-arm-limiters and having them all the way in felt somewhat better. I was only able to ride my 2015 kit a handful of times last year and never in snow this deep and light. Thanks for your input and Merry Christmas!

Running higher pressure in the shock helps .. I also notice you have to ride it like a dirt bike so I find myself standing and turning a lot more or putting my weight towards the tank to give the ski more pressure... I have a 15 kit with tss long kit. .52 front spring


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[Hbmtr]

just a quik note.on my 07 crf,i raised the forks in the triple clamps as a test and also had some pushing or under steer.this is on a stock 14 st.if my forks were flush with triple clamps lots more ski pressure

 

[summitboy]

Interesting testing. I kinda figured with too much articulation the TSS would be a detriment in the deep snow. Good to know. Kinda the same reason the UFO was such a slug in the deep. On the trail a different story im sure.

 

[jethro450]

..... I have stock springs in the front end .....

That is your problem right there. Get heavier fork springs. Let me explain:

So a few years ago when I first got a TS kit I ran the stock fork springs and I had the exact same problem as you, felt like I was going to go over the bars just letting off the gas. It was scary. Ski slipped when I leaned into turns whether in powder or on hard pack.

So... after trying many other things first (different skis, different ski location, etc) I broke down and installed the heaviest fork springs I could find for my bike. 200% improvement! I was amazed. 100% confidence leaning over in all conditions. Plus jumping was nice too.

Fast forward to this year. I got the new 16' ST TSS and installed it on a new bike (CR500AF). Well I had a problem with one fork and couldn't get the stock spring out. It's basically fused in there. I thought, well I have one heavy fork spring in, I'll give it a go. Bad idea. I was right back to where I started a few years ago. Never even once did I have the slightest bit of hesitance leaning my old setup over on the road/powder and hammering the throttle. Now, within 10' of the truck, brand new kit, I had the front ski slip as I turned to get on the road and go. I wasn't happy. I blamed the new 16' ST kit for not having a limiter strap. I was wrong.

That afternoon I went back home, took off a fork of my 450, put the heavy fork spring in it, put it on the 500 (so now I had both heavy fork springs again)... and wah-la! It was like magic. Bike handled amazing again. I have some sweet footage taken today of me dragging the bars in 2' of powder, hand off the grip scraping snow because it all works again like it should. It was so sweet!

Sorry this is a long post.

My theory is that when you have weak fork springs (regardless of valving or where the clickers are at) the front end doesn't ride where it should, which puts more pressure on the front of your ski where the skags ARE NOT located - and therefore you have no "traction".

Ok I'm done now.

Oh wait, I forgot. Drop the forks as much as possible in the clamps too. That also helps.

 

[ktmbrock]

Stiffer fork springs are mandatory for all snowbikes! When you add 100 lbs of weight to a fork that has springs that are usually to soft for dirt you are going to have handling issues. Also, make the front of the bike as tall as the Forks will let you.

 

[the gman]

There are two things working against you. No limiter strap that you can suck up to lessen approach angle and when you turn it pivots on the tss witch takes pressure off your ski. Tss is nice on whooped out trails but hurts you in the deep stuff. We have noticed the track also trenches without the limiter strap to suck up the skid in this light snow. As the snow sets up it will get better but would be nice to be able to lock out the tss for them bottomless days.

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

Also,

Its a bit different then a dirtbike, You do not need to lean into the turns nearly as much on snow. I find myself sitting a bit side saddle on my hard carves otherwise you lean in too far and it doesnt come back up. Just a little different riding style then dirt for sure.

Also, forks at full heigh, max out your compression and rebound and it will help but like I said, just a little different riding style for the super fluffy snow. When it gets hardpack out you basically just dive that ski in as hard as you want to go and have a blast.

 

[ondmand]

I haven't had those problems, last year a '15 LT kit on a husq fc 40 big bore, this yr same bike with '16 LT and TSS. I was always able to ride well on the trail and pow - tho recently put in 6.0 springs and made all the diff with front end not collapsing on me in deep bumps. i'm 210 without gear and needed that stiff a spring - good luck

 

[Hawkster]

Also,

Its a bit different then a dirtbike, You do not need to lean into the turns nearly as much on snow. I find myself sitting a bit side saddle on my hard carves otherwise you lean in too far and it doesnt come back up. Just a little different riding style then dirt for sure.

The problem is in the front end with any ski that has a center heel , damned if you do damned if you don't .

Put on a Gen II and you'll corner in the deep stuff in dirt bike form but of course the hard pack will be random face plants .

That's why you need two if not three skis for different conditions

 

[honkuscracker]

Update

Installed the heavier springs from slavens racing and used 10wt fork oil. All is well in the world now. Thanks everyone for the advice! I'm stoked again!
-Cracker

 

[mrquick68]

Interesting testing. I kinda figured with too much articulation the TSS would be a detriment in the deep snow. Good to know. Kinda the same reason the UFO was such a slug in the deep. On the trail a different story im sure.

My bike is 10 times better this year with the TSS on the trail than last year without it.

 

[Yetiman]

TSS

My bike is 10 times better this year with the TSS on the trail than last year without it.

But wouldn't it be super trick if you could turn off the "TSS" when you where in the deep! Then you would have the best of both worlds!!

 

[TillTheEnd]

Just curious on the riders with TSS on there kits that put in the heavier fork springs. I have a 14 kit with TSS and if I ride it aggressive, more like I'm riding a dirtbike in sand I have not had any problems. Up on the tank in the corners, off the seat in the air, butt over the number plate under power ect. Just wondering if its truly a spring issue or riding style? I can see how if your a sit on the seat rider there could be handling issues. Right now I have a revlaved forks and rider weight springs for summer. I have 4 sizes heavier fork springs I had to run last year without TSS but have not yet put them in.

 

[SEOINAGE]

But wouldn't it be super trick if you could turn off the "TSS" when you where in the deep! Then you would have the best of both worlds!!

I have my TSS turned up fairly high. I still use the range of it on hard hits, but in powder the thing doesn't even compress. So it is pretty much self locking the way the thing is set up.

 

[leeee]

lockout

alot of the fox mtb air shocks have handlebar mounted lockout, sure would be cool if the tss had this. i dont know enough about air shock internals to know what it would take, but i know it exists on other air shocks so it cant be that big of a deal.

 

[SEOINAGE]

alot of the fox mtb air shocks have handlebar mounted lockout, sure would be cool if the tss had this. i dont know enough about air shock internals to know what it would take, but i know it exists on other air shocks so it cant be that big of a deal.

If it had multiple settings I would be all for it. Setting I could use for basic easy riding, locked out for powder, and then a nice stiff setting to handle woops and big jumps.