Colorado Snowmobile Association - Opinions

[marbuc77]

All,

PJ started a thread about maybe starting a new club in Kremmling which was cool to see.

How many of you know about the Colorado Snowmobile Association and it's local clubs? Do you have any opinions? Good or bad? Don't be shy. The only way to improve is with feedback.

http://www.snowmobilecolo.com/

I have my opinions both good and bad but I am still a member of CSA and several front range clubs. Blizzards/Loveland, MileHi/Denver and Pikes Peak/Colorado Springs.

Good
1) Snowscoop snowmobile newspaper with monthly snowmobile reports from around the Colorado.
2) Great way to meet like minded people with similar interests.
3) Organize events like the fall snowmobile expo.
4) A unified voice to promote/protect snowmobile access.
5) Trail maintenance.
6) Snowmobile education and outreach.

Bad
1) Time commitment
2) Different riding styles. (This doesn't really apply because while we might like different types of riding, we still like snowmobiles and want to have access to the mountains.)

 

[skywagon]

Been reading the post about about starting a new club in Kremmling. It takes a lot of time and commitment to start a club. We started the High- Country Snowmobile Club here in Summit County back in 1977. We had a very dedicated and large group for many years, up to about the mid nineties. The club put on 100 mile x-countrys on Lake Dillon, plus beer drinking, blindfold and poker relays, also ice and snow drags once a year. Sadly that group got old, some died, a lot moved away and the club became dormant. We just struggled along with a few members for years. 2 years ago the club got up and running again with our new President, Rich Holcraft and several other people. My wife is the Sec-treasurer of our revamped club. We try our best to get people to join the club and have around 35 memberships. We know there are hundreds of sled in the county and yet no one wants to be invloved or join the club. Why? maybe it's not cool to belong, maybe people want to do there own thing, hey guys and gals, the more people that belong and support sledding the better our chance to fight the treehuggers and greennies Our club worked hard on the Hidden Gems BS. Everyone who owns a sled in the state should belong to a local club and C.S.A.

Our club had a 2 night stay at Thunder Mountain Lodge on Grand Mesa last weekend. We had the wife and I and the club president and his wife and daughter and another couple, sad to see that few. Back in the eighties we would have as many as 20 couples and familys go to the old Electric Mountain Lodge on the Mesa for a weekend of sledding. We had a large number of members from the Kremmling area back in the good old days and would wellcome anyone in that area to join our club, including PJ. I don't feel it's the cost to join a club and C.S.A. that's holding people back. I have no idea why people won't join and support what we all love, hell, me and the wife are still riding and supporting sledding and I'm 75 and she's 72.

My 2 cents, Ron

 

[marbuc77]

Great post Ron. I also wonder why people don't join a club and CSA to support snowmobiling as a combined force. Hopefully we can get some more feedback here.

I am almost 34 and one of my biggest concerns is the general age of the clubs. In most clubs I know the average age is probably close to 60. There's nothing wrong with that and it's great people are still riding and getting outside. The only problem is what happens in another 5, 10, 20 years. Do the clubs, CSA, snowmobile expo, trail maintenance/grooming and motorized access cease to exist because everyone was to busy or to cool to work on anything together?

It's great to do things on your own but sometimes the elected officials and land managers want a central point of contact and that's where the clubs / CSA are great. Plus, the more members the clubs / CSA have, the more clout they have when discussing issues with those elected officials and land managers. For instance the non-motorized people are very well organized and have a club/advocacy group for almost everything/everywhere and thus seem to get their way more often then not.

 

[idareyou]

Here is a link to what the forest service has done north of steamboat lake:

http://a123.g.akamai.net/7/123/1155...ai.com/11558/www/nepa/52247_FSPLT2_034466.pdf

CSA is fine with this decision. They even supported it. CSA sent a list of items to the forest service during the comment period as to what CSA desired and most of the items CSA wanted were not in the final decision. Once the decision was released by the forest service CSA supported it. A change that adds blue areas (non-motorized) to a map is not good in my eyes. There have never been any blue areas (non-motorized) on a map of this area before. I do not understand why CSA wouldn't be against loosing riding areas like this? The Blue area on Rabbit Ears started out small too and now it is huge. I bet 95%+ of the blue area on Rabbit Ears is never accessed by anyone all winter. I feel the ultimate goal of these (blue area) people is to keep everyone out of their public lands. They just add the blue areas a little bit at a time.

CSA is a little too into a big group hug and everyone can get along for my taste. Every time this happens our riding areas shrink.

 

[AndrettiDog]

idareyou -> did you attend and provide your feedback? One of the biggest problems CSA faces is that they have so many people complaining but nobody will step up and partcipate. I'm not saying that you are one of them, but I do ask. They have to pick their battles. I partcipated in a mapping session for the travel management plan. Sometimes CSA will go along with some of the plan as they will not be able to keep 100% of the areas in dispute open. They push hard on the areas that matter, but they have to have input to know what these areas are.

CSA has a serious problem looming. They are getting old. There is a big break in the "traditional" riders and the "younger" generation. CSA's core group is made up of traditional members and once they move on (one way or the other), who will step in? Their biggest challenge next to saving land and coming up with money is to find a way to attract the 20-40 year olds that are currently not interested in being part of a club. Our club works very hard to come up with things that are appealing to the younger generation. We do stuff like bring in Chris Burandt and manufacturer's during our kick off parties, snow drags and end of season parties at Ski Cooper. But we can't buy our members, they have to find value themselves.

My problem with CSA is that they look and operate "old". I don't mean how the people look, I mean the image of the program itself. They finally got rid of a really old and outdated logo and updated their website. They need to find what the younger generation wants and apply it somehow. Bring in people like Burandt, Rassmussen and others to do "cool" stuff.

One last thing to this really long post. CSA is huge in helping our efforts. Janelle Kukuk (current President) is leaving after this year. She has been huge in helping our club with issues from problems with the FS, Hidden Gems, grooming and so many other things. If more of us don't join then we WILL lose more riding areas. Grooming isn't so much to provide us a nice place to ride as it is to "adopt" an area that is left open for our sport.

Join a club. You don't have to participate and you don't have to wear a dorky patch. Just contribute for the sport.

 

[idareyou]

I did provide some feedback and did attend a few meetings regarding the changes when they were proposals. Maybe not as much as I should have. I supported the Routt Powder Riders proposal as I felt it met the snowmobiling needs in that area. It was what I felt was best for snowmobiling in that area. There was a snowmobile trail there when the current land owners bought in that area but now they want it moved. Running a groomed snowmobile trail through a new non-motorized area is asking for more conflicts not less in my eyes. Moving a parking lot miles up a dirt road will shorten the snowmobile season due to melting and road issues especially when you have no concrete commitment to plow it.

Once the skiers start collecting a fee and use it to groom their ski trails and our snowmobile trails I would be more open to the group hug idea, but when they use the money from snowmobile registration to groom ski trails it pisses me off. It takes money out of the grooming for snowmobile trails pot and now our trails are out of grooming money this spring. If we didn't groom their trails we could still have that money to continue grooming the snowmobile trails?? Could the snowmobile trails be groomed more often?? We paid for the grooming not the skiers.

Another one I love is "voluntary non-motorized". That catch phrase translates to "we took this area from motorized users we just haven't decided when to tell them officially we took it."

I am a member of CSA.

 

[Farmer]

idareyou -> did you attend and provide your feedback? One of the biggest problems CSA faces is that they have so many people complaining but nobody will step up and partcipate. I'm not saying that you are one of them, but I do ask. They have to pick their battles. I partcipated in a mapping session for the travel management plan. Sometimes CSA will go along with some of the plan as they will not be able to keep 100% of the areas in dispute open. They push hard on the areas that matter, but they have to have input to know what these areas are.

CSA has a serious problem looming. They are getting old. There is a big break in the "traditional" riders and the "younger" generation. CSA's core group is made up of traditional members and once they move on (one way or the other), who will step in? Their biggest challenge next to saving land and coming up with money is to find a way to attract the 20-40 year olds that are currently not interested in being part of a club. Our club works very hard to come up with things that are appealing to the younger generation. We do stuff like bring in Chris Burandt and manufacturer's during our kick off parties, snow drags and end of season parties at Ski Cooper. But we can't buy our members, they have to find value themselves.

My problem with CSA is that they look and operate "old". I don't mean how the people look, I mean the image of the program itself. They finally got rid of a really old and outdated logo and updated their website. They need to find what the younger generation wants and apply it somehow. Bring in people like Burandt, Rassmussen and others to do "cool" stuff.

One last thing to this really long post. CSA is huge in helping our efforts. Janelle Kukuk (current President) is leaving after this year. She has been huge in helping our club with issues from problems with the FS, Hidden Gems, grooming and so many other things. If more of us don't join then we WILL lose more riding areas. Grooming isn't so much to provide us a nice place to ride as it is to "adopt" an area that is left open for our sport.

Join a club. You don't have to participate and you don't have to wear a dorky patch. Just contribute for the sport.

Well said. I could not agree more.

Boy, I am glad you are on a tear these days with all this fine thought out typing. You are saving me tons of time.

 

[PJ-Hunter]

Here is a link to what the forest service has done north of steamboat lake:

http://a123.g.akamai.net/7/123/1155...ai.com/11558/www/nepa/52247_FSPLT2_034466.pdf

CSA is fine with this decision. They even supported it. CSA sent a list of items to the forest service during the comment period as to what CSA desired and most of the items CSA wanted were not in the final decision. Once the decision was released by the forest service CSA supported it. A change that adds blue areas (non-motorized) to a map is not good in my eyes. There have never been any blue areas (non-motorized) on a map of this area before. I do not understand why CSA wouldn't be against loosing riding areas like this? The Blue area on Rabbit Ears started out small too and now it is huge. I bet 95%+ of the blue area on Rabbit Ears is never accessed by anyone all winter. I feel the ultimate goal of these (blue area) people is to keep everyone out of their public lands. They just add the blue areas a little bit at a time.

CSA is a little too into a big group hug and everyone can get along for my taste. Every time this happens our riding areas shrink.

I get that impression too, but the area by SLO was in serious danger. There were some very vocal property owners that had solid evidence of property being destroyed by some azzclown sledders. (Out of staters) It's sad that some douche from Nebraska or another state coming in and tarnishing the sledder image. They show up, drink, wake up and go. I did many land surveys in that area for court cases over trespassing and such. Certain property owners were so bent on getting the area closed off, they actually had a good chance, so sledders ended up losing a finger to save a hand. Is it right? NO! But that is what Govt. does.

And to answer your statement about the "blue" on RE. You are correct. Literally 1000s of acres don't get touched except for the occasional hard nosed skier. My last 3 rides on RE I saw decent sized groups of skiers on the sledding side, utilizing the groomed trails. On the south side, those trails are groomed by a private business for his sled tour operation, but still used by skiers. It infuriates me. I flat out hate skiers and skiing with a passion. They are the same pricks that ride on the highways in the summer, thinking the whole world owes them a favor for riding a bike. And the attitude carries over.

As for "voluntary" non-motorized areas. Ride em. They aren't closed till they say they are. There is no saving that area, it's all but done. Most likely some paperwork got held up so the process couldn't be finished.

I have written many letters, but never got a chance to go to meetings. Given where I work, it is hard to get off early to go. Now that I am on the surface, I will be going whenever I hear of a meeting.

idareyou -> did you attend and provide your feedback? One of the biggest problems CSA faces is that they have so many people complaining but nobody will step up and partcipate. I'm not saying that you are one of them, but I do ask. They have to pick their battles. I partcipated in a mapping session for the travel management plan. Sometimes CSA will go along with some of the plan as they will not be able to keep 100% of the areas in dispute open. They push hard on the areas that matter, but they have to have input to know what these areas are.

CSA has a serious problem looming. They are getting old. There is a big break in the "traditional" riders and the "younger" generation. CSA's core group is made up of traditional members and once they move on (one way or the other), who will step in? Their biggest challenge next to saving land and coming up with money is to find a way to attract the 20-40 year olds that are currently not interested in being part of a club. Our club works very hard to come up with things that are appealing to the younger generation. We do stuff like bring in Chris Burandt and manufacturer's during our kick off parties, snow drags and end of season parties at Ski Cooper. But we can't buy our members, they have to find value themselves.

My problem with CSA is that they look and operate "old". I don't mean how the people look, I mean the image of the program itself. They finally got rid of a really old and outdated logo and updated their website. They need to find what the younger generation wants and apply it somehow. Bring in people like Burandt, Rassmussen and others to do "cool" stuff.

One last thing to this really long post. CSA is huge in helping our efforts. Janelle Kukuk (current President) is leaving after this year. She has been huge in helping our club with issues from problems with the FS, Hidden Gems, grooming and so many other things. If more of us don't join then we WILL lose more riding areas. Grooming isn't so much to provide us a nice place to ride as it is to "adopt" an area that is left open for our sport.

Join a club. You don't have to participate and you don't have to wear a dorky patch. Just contribute for the sport.

Bug, you need folks like Matt Entz, Phatty and a few others to help speak up. These are regular joes, like you and I that have to work their fingers to the bone to support the habit. They aren't commercially influenced by sponsors and money. I think that they would be heard more effectively. Burandt does his part by donating items and such to raffles. Other than that, he is way too busy with his business to go to meetings.

 

[AndrettiDog]

Well said. I could not agree more.

Boy, I am glad you are on a tear these days with all this fine thought out typing. You are saving me tons of time.

I'm here for you Sean. I'm just full of it after a few years of this club stuff. I couldn't put it all in this thread. It would take weeks. It's amazing how you can be so passionate about something like this, yet it can wear on you so much faster.

 

[BackCountryBob]

CSA and the Mile HI club share a Snowmobile Expo booth each year and it is sad to see how FEW people stop. We attract a fair amount of activity because we sell raffle tickets and push our Safety Class. On average we get 3-4 new members over the two day expo. I don't know how successful they are but considering the sled population in the State, it is way too low.

I feel CSA does a pretty good job considering it is mostly a volunteer organization that relies on club participation. We are not happy about how they send us our dues--maybe that will change next year.

CSA has done a good job attracting sponsors for the "Snow Scoop" which our club has utilized many times-lodging discounts, sled maintenance, etc. and I know they try to influence our local politicians--but without $$$ to contribute it's anyone's guess as to how successful they can be.

It would be great if Colorado State Parks would include a flyer for COHVCO and CSA in their registration that could be used to inform the public of our existiance. I like the idea of merging COHVCO with CSA into a Colorado Recreational Vehicle Association.

BCB

 

[PJ-Hunter]

It would be great if Colorado State Parks would include a flyer for COHVCO and CSA in their registration that could be used to inform the public of our existiance. I like the idea of merging COHVCO with CSA into a Colorado Recreational Vehicle Association.

BCB

I think they do, well for COHVCO.

 

[WC]

When sledcity went away and the problems with the new forum came up I reached out to the CSA to see if I could team up with them and SledMods.com. At the time Sledmods.com had some pretty good Colorado participation.

The response I got was not a very welcoming one so i just let it go. I think there is a big generation gap. I still support them and am happy to donate when i can. I even had the owner of sledcity.com almost ready to sell me back the site

 

[mmaxcarver]

Been a member of CSA for a number of years, never did get a renewal in the mail this year and no more issues of the newspaper either, must be cutting their staff like every other business and can't keep up. I sent them a donation check awhile back I guess that's better than nothing...

PJ: You say Burandt's too busy with his business, what does he do for a living again????????? If anyone should be fighting for this sport it him..........

 

[colorado logger]

CSA

I will try to explain what happens and the going on in ( skier vs sleds ) task force meeting. The Forest Service will have an initial meeting to let the public know what is going on. Eventually they try to get a good cross section of all the users. One person representing each user group. Because it is difficult to get anything accomplished with large group. Besides with one rep from each group keeps one side from being the bully. ( which really helps sledders because we have a problem showing UP.) There might be ten user groups represented, or at least one from every group that cares about the end result.

Okay if that makes any sense, CSA will have one rep. in a group of ten or maybe more. So they have one voice.

A few years back I was that one voice for our club South Fork Powder Busters and CSA. The fight was on Wolf Creek Pass, backcountry skiers vs us. The Wolf Creek Task force was going to decide who gets what.

The process takes a long dam time, by the end I was willing to give them any thing they wanted, but I hung in there.

I am thinking it lasted a couple of winters, the process reminds me of the game show Survivor Island. It is all about making alliances with the other users. So they do not kick you off. I have to add the F.S. does not have a say.

I could go on for ever.

But the CSA IS ON OUR SIDE AND GIVING US EVERY THING THEY GOT.

 

[Dobber1]

We may consider changing our "Club" to a "Gang" in order to attract the 20-30 somethings in order to have a changing of the guards.

 

[AndrettiDog]

PJ: You say Burandt's too busy with his business, what does he do for a living again????????? If anyone should be fighting for this sport it him..........

Chris has come to our last three kick off parties to help us promote the club and sport. He also helped CSA in the fall during the Snow Show. He told me that he attended one of the front range clubs meetings and they had a really good showing. This guy does a lot. There are a lot of other big names out there that don't step up like him. He does have a business to run, but he has been excellent for our club.

 

[WC]

Chris has come to our last three kick off parties to help us promote the club and sport. He also helped CSA in the fall during the Snow Show. He told me that he attended one of the front range clubs meetings and they had a really good showing. This guy does a lot. There are a lot of other big names out there that don't step up like him. He does have a business to run, but he has been excellent for our club.

Yup CB came to the Mile High club at the beginning of the season.. Packed house.

 

[backcountryislife]

I always hate these conversations, I know I tend to have a bit of a douche view about the CSA & some clubs.

I give to saws & BRC... but will not be a part of a club as I feel that the majority of efforts go the wrong way.

I will not let a PENNY of my money go toward grooming trails. More & more I find that the only places I enjoy are the ones where there are zero maintenance efforts. A nice NASTY whooped out trail keeps out the kinds that I'm happy to keep in places like VP & GL.

I know that these clubs DO do some good, I just can't allow my money to go toward something I think is backwards.

If there are any local NON GROOMING clubs that work on access issues, I'd love to know, I'd gladly join & help out. I feel very strongly about access issues, and have spent a lot of time writing letters, going to meetings & such, and would love more direction in that & the ability to team up with others in an organized manner.

 

[AndrettiDog]

I always hate these conversations, I know I tend to have a bit of a douche view about the CSA & some clubs.

I give to saws & BRC... but will not be a part of a club as I feel that the majority of efforts go the wrong way.

I will not let a PENNY of my money go toward grooming trails. More & more I find that the only places I enjoy are the ones where there are zero maintenance efforts. A nice NASTY whooped out trail keeps out the kinds that I'm happy to keep in places like VP & GL.

I know that these clubs DO do some good, I just can't allow my money to go toward something I think is backwards.

If there are any local NON GROOMING clubs that work on access issues, I'd love to know, I'd gladly join & help out. I feel very strongly about access issues, and have spent a lot of time writing letters, going to meetings & such, and would love more direction in that & the ability to team up with others in an organized manner.

I think you have the wrong view of clubs, although I think I get what you are saying. Our club grooms not so much to make snowmobiling easier or even more accessible. It's more of an "adoption" of the area. If we don't groom it and manage it, then it will be closed down. We faced that this year when the Hidden Gems plan would create wilderness right up to within feet of our groomed road (what kind of wilderness would that be?). We would have lost Lower Piney if not for the efforts of our club, CSA and WRFA. Several club members (and others) enjoy a groomed road so that they are not in the whoops. But it is just our way to "preserve" an area near us for snowmobilers. We also battle access issues on anything in our county. I spent hours with CSA on the FS Travel Management plan to battle potential closures throughout Eagle County.

The Holy Cross Powder Hounds are a grooming club and it is very tough. Permits, parts/repair, fuel, operators, dealing with the FS, etc all make it a tedious project. However, I think our club prides on doing some stuff that provides more for the members. The kick off party (w/ Burandt), end of season party at Ski Cooper, snow drags, club rides and charity events are some of them. We have discussed a hill climb or snow cross event, but that is tough to deal with because of permits (through FS) and insurance. We are still playing with that idea.

I understand if this stuff is not interesting to you. I tell people that they dont' have to do anything if they don't want to. They don't even have to receive emails (can unsubscribe). But you contributing to a club adds to the number of people we have on "our" side. During the Hidden Gems and Travel Plan, opposing sides and newspaper interviews ask how many people we have in our club. We have around 80 (family memberships). Just think if it were 180!

 

[PJ-Hunter]

Chris has come to our last three kick off parties to help us promote the club and sport. He also helped CSA in the fall during the Snow Show. He told me that he attended one of the front range clubs meetings and they had a really good showing. This guy does a lot. There are a lot of other big names out there that don't step up like him. He does have a business to run, but he has been excellent for our club.

Guess that was never posted or advertised. I was only aware of the club metting with the HCPH the last three years. I have nothing against Chris at all, just think that he should be more vocal, as most should be. Maybe going to a Land Issues meeting instead of a club showing. Maybe spend a week educating and speaking for freeriding instead of commentation at the X-Games. If I had the exposure, backing and the money that he has, I most certainly would be able to help more than the couple hundred a year that I spend on clubs and Memberships.

Also, instead of selling all of his stable at the end of the season, maybe he should do what FreeAgent does. Raffle one of them off. She gets awesome funds raised by raffling Brad Story's sled off every year. And he only has a couple, not 14 or so. Just a thought.

**And the HCPH Fall meeting would be a GREAT PLACE to have the drawing, since you have been inviting him to appear more than most other clubs.**