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Another Wilderness bill is being proposed, VOICE YOUR OPINION!!

milehighassassin

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http://www.summitdaily.com/news/12757936-113/wilderness-bill-polis-mountain


Everyone needs to stay active, join a club (CSA CLUB), write your representative and write them often. Keep your comments clean and to the point.


When U.S. Rep. Jared Polis announced his new wilderness expansion bill in Breckenridge on Sunday with a handful of local partners, some interested parties were not present, including a Vail Resorts representative and a member of the motorized sports community.

Polis’ bill would designate about 40,000 acres of new wilderness in Summit and Eagle counties and more than 10,000 acres of recreation management areas in Summit, mostly along the Tenmile Range near Breckenridge and Frisco as well as the Porcupine Gulch area near Arapahoe Basin Ski Area.

Advocates say the plan would provide much-needed protections to mid-elevation habitats in Colorado, since much of the state’s existing wilderness land is high-elevation rock and ice.

Federal wilderness designations aim to create lands “untrammeled by man.” Wilderness areas, once designated by Congress, allow for non-motorized recreation, livestock grazing and scientific research, while mineral development, oil and gas drilling, logging, ATVs, snowmobiles and mountain bikes are forbidden. Firefighting activities are allowed, but they require approvals beyond what is necessary on public lands not designated as wilderness.

The recreation areas in Polis’ bill would be managed like wilderness except they would allow all the motorized recreational uses that are currently permitted.

According to a statement released Monday by Vail Resorts communications director Russ Pecoraro, the company supported Polis’ previous efforts to conserve wilderness areas and now is working with his staff on the latest bill.

Scott Overland, communications director for Polis’ staff, said he is optimistic that once Vail Resorts reviews the bill the company will strongly support it as it did in the past.

Snowmobilers on the other hand have not been fans of the legislation.

In 2010, people who enjoy snowmobiling on national forest land in the High Country voiced strong concerns and objections to Polis’ original proposal, which was then an effort backed by several conservation groups known as Hidden Gems.

Mountain bikers also had issues with earlier versions of the proposal that have since been resolved. A staff member of the International Mountain Biking Association, based in Boulder, attended the event Sunday and spoke about parts of the proposal that had been changed to accommodate mountain bikers.

A representative for snowmobile or off-highway vehicle enthusiasts, however, was absent.

“The mountain bike community, the OHV community, they should probably work together, but they don’t,” said Mike Stoveken, owner of Silverthorne Power Sports.

Rich Holcroft, president of the High Country Snowmobile Club, said Tuesday he has been involved in crafting the legislation since the beginning.

“Polis is doing a pretty good job with backing out boundaries to kind of accommodate everybody,” said Holcroft, 44, of Blue River. “I’m still not very psyched about the proposal.”

His club has about 50 members paying dues, but he thinks there are more snowmobilers than that in the county, he said.

When he checked with Colorado Parks and Wildlife a few years ago, the county had about 3,000 snowmobiles registered to operate on public lands.

In Summit, he said, people wanting to snowmobile on national forest land have just a handful of places they can legally ride. That can create problems with overcrowding and damaging trails, he added, though his group and Summit County Off-Road Riders work to educate their members on responsible riding and help the Forest Service maintain trails and keep riders in designated areas.

However, Holcroft said, Polis’ bill would permanently close areas to motorized users that were closed two years ago without much say from those users, who now hope to discuss creating more places where they can ride the next time the Forest Service travel management plan is reviewed.

“This makes those decisions permanent, which is unfortunate for motorized users,” he said.

“I see it from both directions,” he said, explaining that he understands the desire to protect and preserve land for future generations but he feels Summit County already has enough wilderness.

The bill is better than it used to be, he said. “They can’t make everyone happy all the time.”
 

MT Backcountry

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Wilderness Areas are bad

I have to say NO NEW WILDERNESS!! Every day these people are sitting around trying to figure out how to Land Grab. Its really SAD!!:face-icon-small-coo
 
O
Dec 6, 2007
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You may want to look into what CSA has supported in the past before you suggest we all climb aboard that bus. They supported further noise regulations for sleds and they supported the expanse of law enforcement powers in the state to more easily "police" forest users.

These things go the WRONG direction and I stopped my support of that organization when it went south about five years ago.

The FACT is, clubs have done virtually NOTHING to stop the spread of closures in this state.

We need to get this to where they are unable to enforce the closures because sledders just keep riding the public lands, not just give them up because some polititian made it "illegal". You are fooling yourselves if you think supporting CSA and writing a couple of letters is going to slow or stop this. We need to be concientious objectors to these laws and start using the lands again.

Seems this particular bill allows for current uses. It is a bastardization of the intent and rule of Wilderness designations. It should never pass based on that alone.

The disbanding of SAWS after ten years of fighting should be a wake up call to all of you who think writing letters and joining clubs will work, or even help.
 
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O
Dec 6, 2007
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I have to say NO NEW WILDERNESS!! Every day these people are sitting around trying to figure out how to Land Grab. Its really SAD!!:face-icon-small-coo

It is worse than that... These people are getting PAID to actively try and close land. We recently finished house for some wacko liberal clients. Left out in the open was a list of donations they had made. It was a stack of paper maybe 3-4 sheets. On the top sheet alone was 100 grand in donations to lots of groups I recognize from these battles, ALL green oriented. That is one couple, I am sure many others are much much worse, with no idea what that money really goes for. It goes to lobby groups who pay people to screw over those of us who choose to hold legitimate, productive jobs.

Sorry for the rants and negative attitude but, this foolishness needs to stop.
 
O
Dec 6, 2007
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So instead of hiding behind that silly rep system milehigh, how about we discuss it, because I am not sure which side guys like you are really on...

You are suggesting that we continue to play by the rules as set for us by the liberals. It has been LONG proven that "voicing your opinion" on issues like this gets you exactly nowhere. So if that is your big push, and it has only ever been successful at furthering the liberals adgenda for them, who's side are you on?

The FACT is, the great people at SAWS gathered up thousands of members and fought this battle HARD for a decade using the tactics you are promoting here. During that time the govt expanded wilderness designations by what, another 10 million acres? So we should write more letters why? I have written hundreds of letters to politicians, forest service unit managers, newspapers and anywhere else I thought it might make a difference. Unfortunately, my efforts had similar results... they have a wilderness expansion bill right in my back yard, honestly, I can SEE it from my window, right here in town.

It is going to take a LOT more than getting your voice heard. We are all on the same page when it comes to stopping this, I think anyway... I am suggesting that the tactics you are promoting here are a waste of time and the evidence of that is plain as day if you take the time to look and be honest with yourself about the situation.

Becoming an outlaw clearly doesn't appeal to you and a peaceful solution is your preference. I wish you luck with that plan. If you look back through history though you will find that it takes more than peaceful negotiations if you truely intend to defend your rights.
 

Goinboardin

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It does work sometimes. Remember the Hidden Gems deal that didn't go through? We FILLED and OVERFILLED the courthouse in Gunnison vehemently opposing that proposal and it didn't fly. So the time to write, attend a meeting, it's not for nothing.

Though, I do agree, they are like an outbreak that has gone airborne with no cure... Big city people with $$$ working hard to "protect" our mountains...that they might make it to once a year to sit in the coffee shop of the nearest town, maybe going for a 1 mile snowshoe or xc ski.

I'm absolutely blown away that people don't think we have enough wilderness. They're empty. Want to get away? There won't be a trail, trailhead, or anyone else there. SO GO!
 
O
Dec 6, 2007
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It does work sometimes. Remember the Hidden Gems deal that didn't go through? We FILLED and OVERFILLED the courthouse in Gunnison vehemently opposing that proposal and it didn't fly. So the time to write, attend a meeting, it's not for nothing.

Though, I do agree, they are like an outbreak that has gone airborne with no cure... Big city people with $$$ working hard to "protect" our mountains...that they might make it to once a year to sit in the coffee shop of the nearest town, maybe going for a 1 mile snowshoe or xc ski.

I'm absolutely blown away that people don't think we have enough wilderness. They're empty. Want to get away? There won't be a trail, trailhead, or anyone else there. SO GO!


Then consider the hands off policy the USFS and BLM have taken. How does Summit County look these days with all of the beetle kill? We have a few very neglected looking areas down south too. The Wilderness expansion here is claimed to be an effort to protect the watershed for the town of Ridgway. When the old logging roads grow over and the bugs kill the trees, what do they think their watershed will be like after the fire? Emotion based, it has never been a logical factual argument with the enviro's.

If you guys think it really helps, more power to you. I was a big part of the rally's we staged in Silverton years ago. We packed a USFS/BLM meeting and the county comissioners meetings with hundreds of sledders. That was ten years ago and I am still not sure what the decision will be. It has remained status quo for now. So did it work? Not against a stupid wilderness expansion, though it has yet to be enacted but, maybe against some more winter motorized closures on Red Mtn Pass.

Good Luck
 

milehighassassin

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So instead of hiding behind that silly rep system milehigh, how about we discuss it, because I am not sure which side guys like you are really on...

You are suggesting that we continue to play by the rules as set for us by the liberals. It has been LONG proven that "voicing your opinion" on issues like this gets you exactly nowhere. So if that is your big push, and it has only ever been successful at furthering the liberals adgenda for them, who's side are you on?

The FACT is, the great people at SAWS gathered up thousands of members and fought this battle HARD for a decade using the tactics you are promoting here. During that time the govt expanded wilderness designations by what, another 10 million acres? So we should write more letters why? I have written hundreds of letters to politicians, forest service unit managers, newspapers and anywhere else I thought it might make a difference. Unfortunately, my efforts had similar results... they have a wilderness expansion bill right in my back yard, honestly, I can SEE it from my window, right here in town.

It is going to take a LOT more than getting your voice heard. We are all on the same page when it comes to stopping this, I think anyway... I am suggesting that the tactics you are promoting here are a waste of time and the evidence of that is plain as day if you take the time to look and be honest with yourself about the situation.

Becoming an outlaw clearly doesn't appeal to you and a peaceful solution is your preference. I wish you luck with that plan. If you look back through history though you will find that it takes more than peaceful negotiations if you truely intend to defend your rights.



It's does work, you can say it was a system put in place by liberals or whatever you like, but at this point the expansion of wilderness has not taken place.

What are your tactics? Say eff them I'll ride where I like? Feel free. I'll continue to support my local club, CSA, local businesses that show that support, SAWS, etc. I'll refuse to vote for those that want to enact Wilderness in these areas, I will support those that don't want more wilderness. I will write my officials, I will attend meetings.


Seriously, what do you suggest we do instead?
 
O
Dec 6, 2007
857
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It's does work, you can say it was a system put in place by liberals or whatever you like, but at this point the expansion of wilderness has not taken place.

What are your tactics? Say eff them I'll ride where I like? Feel free. I'll continue to support my local club, CSA, local businesses that show that support, SAWS, etc. I'll refuse to vote for those that want to enact Wilderness in these areas, I will support those that don't want more wilderness. I will write my officials, I will attend meetings.


Seriously, what do you suggest we do instead?

First fo all we have lost an additional 5 MILLION acres to wilderness designations in the last ten years, so I am not sure what your comment is based on.

From SAWS.... "Our position from the beginning was to be the ONLY snowmobile organization that would take the firm position of "NO MORE WILDERNESS", as we felt the existing 104.5 million acres at that time (2004) was plenty. Unfortunately, there are now 109.5 million acres of wilderness in the US. "

You can continue to try and support SAWS.... except after ten years of figting and losing they have disbanded. You can side with CSA but they have and will continue to "compromise" with the greenies which is always a net loss for snowmobiles.

I have told you what needs to be done, you say eff em and ride it anyway. It wounldn't be long before the gubmint had to reassess the policies or simply give up on trying to enforce unenforcable laws.


What you are telling me is that you want the easy way to defend your rights. Simple, no risk, just write some letters and attend some meetings. Doesn't work, hasn't worked but I am sure you can make it work better by trying to get people to comment to a group that doesn't care what you want, it doesn't fit their adgenda.

We will continue to lose open lands until they are gone. 5 million new acres closed in ten years time and you think the best thing to do is stay the course?
 
M
Nov 26, 2007
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<< "I was always willing to be reasonable until I had to be unreasonable", Heemeyer wrote. "Sometimes reasonable men must do unreasonable things.">>

Marvin Heemeyer
Granby, CO
(owner of a Komatsu D355A w/ some armor)
 
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backcountryislife

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First fo all we have lost an additional 5 MILLION acres to wilderness designations in the last ten years, so I am not sure what your comment is based on.

From SAWS.... "Our position from the beginning was to be the ONLY snowmobile organization that would take the firm position of "NO MORE WILDERNESS", as we felt the existing 104.5 million acres at that time (2004) was plenty. Unfortunately, there are now 109.5 million acres of wilderness in the US. "

You can continue to try and support SAWS.... except after ten years of figting and losing they have disbanded. You can side with CSA but they have and will continue to "compromise" with the greenies which is always a net loss for snowmobiles.

I have told you what needs to be done, you say eff em and ride it anyway. It wounldn't be long before the gubmint had to reassess the policies or simply give up on trying to enforce unenforcable laws.


What you are telling me is that you want the easy way to defend your rights. Simple, no risk, just write some letters and attend some meetings. Doesn't work, hasn't worked but I am sure you can make it work better by trying to get people to comment to a group that doesn't care what you want, it doesn't fit their adgenda.

We will continue to lose open lands until they are gone. 5 million new acres closed in ten years time and you think the best thing to do is stay the course?

He asked what you proposed instead... that appears to be nothing. Do nothing, say nothing (aside from posting here to stop others from doing something or saying something it seems), what are you thinking this accomplishes?


Having been to many HG meetings & club meetings in Summit, I can say with 100% certainty that you're 100% wrong about what dialogue & clubs accomplish. I'm still no fan of CSA or many clubs, but I know what has been done up in Summit & Eagle, and it's significant. HG originally had a TON of our long term riding areas, and down the road they nearly all went away. Things have been accomplished, and to look at it with any other metric than prevention of new creation would be ignorant. New wilderness IS going to happen, either via legislation, or via USFS TMP... the only thing we really CAN do is join the fight.


Or... we can sit on here, bich & whine about OTHER people doing their best to defend our lands... Good luck with that strategy, how's it working out for you?
 

psychoneurosis

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I guess I am puzzled as to why CSA is soft on Wilderness- every trip to DC fights against Wilderness. Question is a lot of people (Eastern US) simply don't get public lands in the West. Couple of recent results of CSA efforts to counter the assertions that Wilderness is a Utopia that the advocates always assert is true:

CSA brought the Senator Udall's Forest health report (that clearly stated Wilderness and improperly managed Roadless directly contributed to and limited USFS response to the Pine Beetle epidemic......)to the US House's attention and the House held hearings reading the document into the Congressional record. Hard to assert that Wilderness is good for public lands with the USFS statement there. Couple that with all the documents from the State Forest Service and it becomes clear that Wilderness is bad for everything. Those hearings occurred throughout the western us and exemplified a document that Sen Udall would have liked to bury.

CSA, TPA and COHVCO just released another comparison document of what the Wilderness advocates assert is the truth and what has been determined by unbiased reviewers. That is attached and working to get that out right now. Hard to see Wilderness as an economic driver when the 15% of the USFS lands in CO which are Wilderness only result in 4% of visitor days. Couple that with research that finds non-motorized users spend 25% of what a motorized user does and any economic benefit argument can be seen as comical.

Wilderness does not help wildlife- new lynx management docs are clearly stating that. Wilderness prevents fire management and fires can make trout habitat unusable for centuries.....

Water quality does not improve with Wilderness- USFS and all front range water districts have management standards that clearly state watershed must be managed with mechanical equipment to protect them. Managing these areas with horses and handsaws is not enough.

The fight is made and wins on this issue are achieved. Hidden Gems, San Juan mtns etc are proof of that....... thank you to everyone who writes letters and supports the cause. It does matter even if we can't make the issue go away completely
 

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