a most likely scenario, would you buy it ?

[Rotax_Kid]

I would think there is a market for this - size unknown. If I were a used buyer, I would have significantly more confidence in buying a used OEM turbo than one which came from the aftermarket. It has nothing to do with kit quality, but more to do that anyone with some cash can try to install it themselves and you sometimes have a Cat in a bag. I would feel more comfortable buying a used OEM kit because it was assembled consistently and maybe easier to troubleshoot.

I know the used market isn't the purpose of this, and I'm not one to buy a used mod sled, however, that sticks out in my mind.

Their best option in my mind is to offer a factory backed kit, with dealer support on the install, and void the warranty once installed. Have most angles covered. It would not be the highest performing kit, but, as long as it runs day in/out consistently, large majority would be happ.

 

[mountainhorse]

All of the costly minutia on the side of the factory to manage, in terms of R&D, production, consumer service etc, will, IMO, prevent this from happening

IMO, Do not confuse a 4 stroke sled, which you can reliably run in a closed-loop mode... with a two stroke... even if you are talking about a factory turbo sled or a factory turbo UTV.... Just not the same as a speed-density efi setup on a sled. Very expensive to get a 2-stroke to run in closed loop in terms of lambda sensors being reliable in a consumer market running in an oil rich exhaust... even with the new engines that run lean on oil.

Yami pretty much needed to offer a factory turbo to remain in the game... Not too hard to have a sled that will hold up to 180 hp... and not very challenging to boost a 4 stroke from the corporate position... especially when the aftermarket has done much of the R&D that can be readily applied to a consumer model that will meet EPA guidelines... IMO.

Warranty...more difficult to manage from a corporate level.
You would have to also put more stringent controls on consumer mods.

Now... if you could dominate the market (meaning have the majority of ALL sled sales) with the addition of this to the sled... then, YES, this could make sense. But that wont be the case, again IMO.

But heck... who knows... lots of gimmicks out there to sell more sleds....BUT... to make a kit as 'rock solid' in all conditions in the consumers hands... with wide variables... and the cost of R&D and development and time to test... enough to be able to bear the consumer end of things... I just don't see it happening...

Plus, the factory would have to provide difficult to bypass controls to meet an EPA standard, ... weather or not it had warranty.

To release anything to the public... with, as said in the first post with a "competition use only" 'moniker' would still need to meet EPA regs and prove that they will reliably remain within spec after heavy use in the consumers hands.

AGAIN... IMO.

With the aftermarket and the kits out there coming way down in price... I see a lot of barriers to entry for the OEM.

Cost and potential return...profit... that is the ONLY thing that drive decisions like this. Sure it would be bitchin to have a factory 2 stroke turbo.. and yes, technically it is possible as shown in the aftermarket... will it warrant the investment and provide return to shareholders though???


my 2¢

























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[mountainhorse]

Gus... Plasma spray has been around since the 70's...

Are you referring to a specific type or new method of PTWA ?

Sincerely interested in which one was was released in 2009.... always good to learn on here from our great tech base on here.



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[mountainhorse]

I dont see any reason to belive an OEM version would be the least bit better in any way shape or form than what you have now from your dedicated kit builders.

Those teams of Hot Rodders have produced sytems as good or better than any oem would be able to.

Gus... I agree with you there with one caveat.

One of the BIG variables here is that the aftermarket teams of hot rodders are not, currently, required to meed any emissions standards for their products... turbo 2 strokes sleds from an emissions point of view are DIRTY

The time is coming where emissions inspections are coming on recreational vehicles like UTV, Sleds, bikes, boats etc.

California already has inspections required on newer boats.



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[Motorbreath_]

There really is nothing that the oem can do better short of the actual chassis design to fit the package better.

I'm sure if the aftermarket companies could work hand in hand with the OEM on the development of a turbo kit/sled it would have to be a better kit/sled. You could have an ECU that monitors everything going on within the system, making it somewhat fail safe. The sled could even be outfitted with a proper rear suspension for the higher horsepower! The possibilities are endless.

Go back about 13-15 years and read a magazine talking about how new EPA standards would have us all riding 4 stroke sleds and 2 stroke rec vehicles will no longer exist.

Anyways, you seem like too smart a man to refuse to believe that technology will not advance.

I'm not sure when it'll happen.. but eventually it will.

 

[gus bohne]

When we see an OEM rec vehicle with optical pressure sensors in the loop then you can expect an almost fool proof 2 stroke turbo managment system.
there are situations where egt, o2 and knock sensors are fooled and that only happens when a turbo is on a 2 stroke.
Optical in cyl press sensors would solve SOME of these variable load induced scenarios. I do see the day it may make it to this sport . cost is so hard to justify as is the long term exposure to moisture. these engines have condensation swings from the open port exhuast.

the newer german patent applies to its adhesion to aluminum substrate. surface tension I believe is what this method addresses. It aint NEW just refangled..LOL

Really good to see such quality dialogue guys. thank you for that.

 

[christopher]

Chrissy,

Thats is the mindset YOU the consumer have to put forth for this to ever happen.
Those who feel there HAS TO BE some warranty,, WHY ?

Its a shame you fellas cant get your head around the FACT that NO OEM will or can produce a turbo 2 stroke that is in any way superior to those already on the snow from your current group of top tier suppliers.
Of course the lower tier kits will still be what they are.

There really is nothing that the oem can do better short of the actual chassis design to fit the package better.

I bought my Viper knowing full well I was going to make major mods to it that would VOID the warranty, so there was NO reason at all for me to buy a warrantied sled and pay all the extra cost of that warranty.

As for production Gussy.
The OEM doesn't have to make it in any way SUPERIOR.
They just have to offer it as a factory option and the consumers will beat a path to their door. Just look at what has happened to MPI now that Yamaha has offered a factory turbo. From Hero to Zero in one press release.

That said, there is something the OEM can do better.
The OEM can BUILD the sled and the engine to be TURBOed from the get go and does NOT have to "Hack" the electronics and reverse engineer it or strap on a Piggy Back solution.

The OEM has some very clear advantages that no after market company will ever enjoy.

 

[gus bohne]

Love it.. !!!!

Thats the only real caveat, part of the moral of this thread is that The systems on the market today have evolved to be about as effective and durable as one can expect.
It is THESE current owners who would be the target market to get control of. Get these devoted 2 t turbo veterans OFF their current e tech turbo and Riding the OEM doo 4-6 psi boost sled..!!!
These guys will help pull the newbies off the fence, teach them the basics and evolve the model and BRAND loyalty.

The 850 has allot going for it and My heart says YOU GUYS, out there in the west and western Canada MADE that sled happen.. It is the most turbo specific and or coincidental build an OEM has ever risked there merit on.

Gonna be good.. lets just hope it happens. its a win win for all of us.
Heck the Crankshop has those new 1140 e tech motors now for the real crazies !!

 

[1500psi]

Love it.. !!!!

Thats the only real caveat, part of the moral of this thread is that The systems on the market today have evolved to be about as effective and durable as one can expect.
It is THESE current owners who would be the target market to get control of. Get these devoted 2 t turbo veterans OFF their current e tech turbo and Riding the OEM doo 4-6 psi boost sled..!!!
These guys will help pull the newbies off the fence, teach them the basics and evolve the model and BRAND loyalty.

The 865 has allot going for it and My heart says YOU GUYS, out there in the west and western Canada MADE that sled happen.. It is the most turbo specific and or coincidental build an OEM has ever risked there merit on.

Gonna be good.. lets just hope it happens. its a win win for all of us.
Heck the Crankshop has those new 1140 e tech motors now for the real crazies !!

Do you know of anyone running a big twin in a e tech?

 

[gus bohne]

Funny you should ask, we have an xp 1000 turbo that will be on the TAR in a few weeks. Its on our chassis / drivtrain dyno now.

If funds allow my plan is to have Larry's 1100 version of the e torch turboed and on the snow this winter. that one will need 2 injectors per cyl to get adequate control over them with the piggy back boxes..

Hope we dont HAVE to go back to carbs but if we do I have a set of 50 mm lectrons ready..

 

[sledhead_24_7]

Here's a little tid bit from the Shelbly GT 350 brochure. Regarding the cylinder coating.

 

[Reg2view]

Wait a sec.
WHEN did the MOUNTAIN SEGMENT become the LARGEST SEGMENT in our industry?

Confirm with your Snowest publisher boys who may have the most recent ISMA sled sales class data - as I recall, the 800 mountain sled class led sales in North America (US and Canada) for both 2014 and 2015.

Think about it - there were only ~100,000 new sleds sold in NA in each of the past two years. Over 40% of those were sold in the western US, western CA, and AK. The single dominant model was 800 class RMK, Summit, M in those markets. Out east, mountain sled sales have been booming in the great lake states (fastest growing segment by far). On the other hand, hyper trail sled sales are way down out east, only cross-overs are growing along with mountain sleds.

The OEM sales trends have changed dramatically in the past 15 years (specific model sell-through was never captured or available from OEMs before 2000, believe it or not). And that's the reason the OEMs (at least two of them) are so focused on the mountain market - that's where the money is now.

 

[mountainhorse]

Here's a little tid bit from the Shelbly GT 350 brochure. Regarding the cylinder coating.

02-25-2016, 10:52 AM

Google "Plasma PTWA" .... Ford has been using this "PlasmaSpray" process for a few years... along with other engine builders.

A recent Cat marine Diesel I installed used this technology.

http://www.tstcoatings.com/plasma_spray.html

...

 

[mountainhorse]

The nice thing about PTWA is that if it performs well in the Doo's.. and I mean better overall than Nikasil over the long term... we'll see it in other makes as this is not a "BRP" proprietary process!

Good for all brand riders.



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[sledhead_24_7]

I figured Ford had been using it for a while. Just happened that I was looking though the brochure and saw they were using it their newest hot rod motor. Thought it was pretty neat as the 5.2L motor spins at 8200 rpm or so.

 

[sledhead_24_7]

Here is a video at around 58 sec that talks about a form of the plasma coating. Saw this a while back.

https://youtu.be/TO7SsNPb6R8

 

[gus bohne]

The only worry ,, rust in the cylinder during the off season.
Being as it is a carbon steel we will see ( oxidation ).

turbos make so much more moisture in the exhaust..

Fingers crossed it is not a hurdle just a worry from an old fat bald guy

 

[ArcticChat]

Confirm with your Snowest publisher boys who may have the most recent ISMA sled sales class data - as I recall, the 800 mountain sled class led sales in North America (US and Canada) for both 2014 and 2015.

Think about it - there were only ~100,000 new sleds sold in NA in each of the past two years. Over 40% of those were sold in the western US, western CA, and AK. The single dominant model was 800 class RMK, Summit, M in those markets. Out east, mountain sled sales have been booming in the great lake states (fastest growing segment by far). On the other hand, hyper trail sled sales are way down out east, only cross-overs are growing along with mountain sleds.

The OEM sales trends have changed dramatically in the past 15 years (specific model sell-through was never captured or available from OEMs before 2000, believe it or not). And that's the reason the OEMs (at least two of them) are so focused on the mountain market - that's where the money is now.

Your 40% figure is a little off. This thread has some pretty good info on the industry that usually isn't available to the public.

http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=411152

 

[Reg2view]

Your 40% figure is a little off. This thread has some pretty good info on the industry that usually isn't available to the public.

http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=411152

Updated!


Firstly, thank you. Your link reinforces my exact point. You might need to reread my post. I was proposing that 40% OF SALES were in Western US, Western CA, and AK. Not 40% were "mountain sleds", which you must be inferring as being a little off. You're right - great insight in the market. There is some info on locale but not by state/province, it might be less than 40%, but not by a whole lot.

This further confirms the main point - mountain sled sales in NA are now the LARGEST segment in NA, at least for this period. 30,016 of 87,182 (that's ~35%) of sport sleds were mountain sleds. I'd guess the dollar value would be higher than 35%. I'm also guessing Christopher's post answered his question - since when...?

This is business. Follow the money. Mountain sleds are where the battle for profit is being fought.

 

[mountainhorse]

The only worry ,, rust in the cylinder during the off season.
Being as it is a carbon steel we will see ( oxidation ).

turbos make so much more moisture in the exhaust..

Fingers crossed it is not a hurdle just a worry from an old fat bald guy

Funny you say that Gus....

02-25-2016, 11:32 AM

My buddy, and engineer at Ford, said that the PTWA cylinder surfaces hold oil better than Nicasil.

I called him over lunch... he said the only concern he had for sleds is corrosion in the off season.

I believe that DOO has a built in "fogging" program for the E-TEC engines that would minimize any issues with this?

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