Is the "Geo" mod suitable for 2009 M series rear skids?

Frostbite · May 8, 2009

I was hoping to improve the suspension of my 09 M8 a bit during the off season.

My plan was to add the Fett Brother's Fox Float Air Cannisters to both front shocks and the Fox Float on the rear skid.

I have heard mention of the "Geo" mod, and I'm wondering if the lessons learned from the "Geo" modifications on the 07-08 Cat rear skids were incorporated into the 09 - and 2010 skids from the factory?

So, is the "Geo" mod applicable to the 2009 rear skid?

If not, this is the direction I plan to go.

Air Canisters:

Here's what the Fett Brother's product description says:

"The Floaters biggest complaint is that air is not fully compressible so on the compression stroke it ramps up to full stiff very fast. This caused Fox to add a small negative spring inside for rebound control. Even with this negative spring an increase in air volume will help smooth out the low and mid speed stutters while still keeping bottoming out resistance. Compact, no special tools needed for installation, and adjust pressure with stock pump. Sold by the pair".

List Price: $89.99
Price: $86.49

So it would cost $172.98 for two pair of air cannisters. I'll sell the one I don't need (only need three) to another mountain sled guy for $40 shipped. So the total would be $132.98 plus shipping.

http://www.fettbrosperformance.com/store/proddetail.asp?prod=AIRC1&cat=33
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Nextech makes an adjustable version of these air cannisters but, they cost a LOT more and I ride a mountain sled (not on the trails too much).

http://carbonsled.com/float_reservoir.htm

NEXTECH has developed an adjustable remote air reservoir for fox float shocks. The reservoir allows the rider to easily control the air volume in the shock and integrated speed sensitive valving prevents bottoming in aggressive riding. This allows suspension performance to be customized for the weight of the rider and the type of riding. With these added features the shock provides more stability, usable travel and a smoother ride. The reservoir is light weight anodized aluminum construction and fits most fox floats with easy 15 minute installation.

CA $149.95 (US $129.17) each IN STOCK
These reservoirs adjust to change the compression ratio of the shock. Eg. to bottom out a typical float shock running 70 psi it takes almost 3300Lbs but with these air reservoirs they become adjustable from the stock 3300Lbs all the way down to 1500Lbs. Lower compression ratios allow for higher starting air pressures for better handling and ride height while still allowing for maximum travel.

$387.51 for three. Yikes!

That's a difference of $254.53 between the Fett and the Nextech.

Now if the "Geo" mod is FREE and it works on the 09 rear skid, please let me know.

Then you know my next question. If I do the "Geo" mod, is it still worthwhile to add the Fett Brother's air canisters?

Thanks

Icedog · May 8, 2009

I think the Geo mod is only meant for the '08's. I'd just send Geo a PM.

JHG · May 8, 2009

I know it's pricey but to fix it right Timbersled has their rear skids on sale for $1200. Sell your 09 setup you may not be out that much.

ACMtnCat · May 8, 2009

But with the Timber skid wouldnt you still need a fix for the floats with the extra air chambers?????

JHG · May 8, 2009

ACMtnCat said:
But with the Timber skid wouldnt you still need a fix for the floats with the extra air chambers?????

I don't know anyone running the air chambers. I guess I don't really understand purpose of having them. I would think if you fixed the backwards azz geometry of the skid you wouldn't have the need for the chambers. I don't know, just wondering.

Steve D · May 8, 2009

Good thread.

BigHoe, they're also meant for the front suspension shocks too. Basically, they're cheaper than buying Float2's or EVOL's. Basically increases the volume of air to be compressed. I think comparing what the chambers do to what different suspension geometry can do is sort of an apples and oranges thing.

I was interested in the fett bros. chambers too. The flatlanders seem to give them a good review over on hardcoresledder.com or arcticchat, can't remember which. I'd make sure there was clearance on the rear shock though. I remember someone saying they had to do a little grinding to get it to fit on a crossfire (might've been the nexttech one though.)

As far as the Geo mod, I recall another thread on here back in December/January where Geo himself recommended against it for the '09's because something was different in the setup now.

After a bit of tweaking I ended up pretty happy with the ride of my sled. I'd still like to get mine to actually turn through corners though, but I suspect a new set of skis should clear that up.

Nubulin · May 8, 2009

Frostbite, read this post on the geo mod for float skids.
http://snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57103

I did the change geo outlines there and like it a lot. Good news is it is free and if you don;t like it, just move it back to the other holes in the tunnel brackets.

diggerdown · May 8, 2009

BigHoe said:
I don't know anyone running the air chambers. I guess I don't really understand purpose of having them. I would think if you fixed the backwards azz geometry of the skid you wouldn't have the need for the chambers. I don't know, just wondering.

Maybe you should give Mark Holz a call and explain to him how to build a skid!

The added air chambers will help the ride. The lack of the cambers or a larger bore for the shocks, have been their weak point.

JHG · May 8, 2009

diggerdown said:
Maybe you should give Mark Holz a call and explain to him how to build a skid!

The added air chambers will help the ride. The lack of the cambers or a larger bore for the shocks, have been their weak point.

There is no way that Holtz is the industry leader in rear skids for Cat. I have a holtz and the new cat skid both in my garage, they are similar but not the same. Ride a cat then a holtz and you will see the difference, then get on a racers edge, ez ride, M10 or timbersled and you too will realize that the holtz doesn't compare.

Samurai · May 8, 2009

BigHoe said:
There is no way that Holtz is the industry leader in rear skids for Cat. I have a holtz and the new cat skid both in my garage, they are similar but not the same. Ride a cat then a holtz and you will see the difference, then get on a racers edge, ez ride, M10 or timbersled and you too will realize that the holtz doesn't compare.

I agree with everything in the above statement...except in my opinion the TS doesn't belong in that caliber of skids.
I firmly believe to cure the M series suspension you cant just tweek it, you need to unbolt it and chuck it as far as possible. Anything less and it's just a waste of cash
I've tryed them all except K-Mod

JHG · May 9, 2009

Samurai said:
I agree with everything in the above statement...except in my opinion the TS doesn't belong in that caliber of skids.
I firmly believe to cure the M series suspension you cant just tweek it, you need to unbolt it and chuck it as far as possible. Anything less and it's just a waste of cash
I've tryed them all except K-Mod

I agree, the TS is a good boondocking skid but hillclimbing it is not in the same league as the others, bottom line is that the holtz is better than stock but all of the above including the TS will out perform the stock skid.

Frostbite · May 9, 2009

Great stuff guys but, what can I do to make the 2009 stock skid more rideable? I don't intend to buy another skid at this point (engine mods first).

What's funny to me is, on the Yamaha RX-1 Mountain sleds it's a Huge improvement and weight savings going from the stock Yamaha rear skid to the M7 rear skid with the Holz relocation brackets. In fact, I have a 06 141" M7 skid on my RX-1M with a 162 x 16 camo Extreme.

Now that I have an Arctic Cat too, you guys talk about pitching the stock suspension as far as you can throw it.

I just want to make the stock skid as good as it can be made to work. :beer;

Thanks for the information.

minet · May 9, 2009

what is it these skids do for you?
what does " better " mean to you?

i dont know if i could tell a bad skid from a good one ,, what attributes are you looking for or trying to avoid?

Samurai · May 9, 2009

Frostbite said:
Great stuff guys but, what can I do to make the 2009 stock skid more rideable? I don't intend to buy another skid at this point (engine mods first).

What's funny to me is, on the Yamaha RX-1 Mountain sleds it's a Huge improvement and weight savings going from the stock Yamaha rear skid to the M7 rear skid with the Holz relocation brackets. In fact, I have a 06 141" M7 skid on my RX-1M with a 162 x 16 camo Extreme.

Now that I have an Arctic Cat too, you guys talk about pitching the stock suspension as far as you can throw it.

I just want to make the stock skid as good as it can be made to work. :beer;

Thanks for the information.

Well thats not so....I've always said it's JUNK...and in fact check my history...I've told you it's junk before....selective reading maybe???

If I was in a position that I wanted to improve my skid but not replace the entire skid...I guees I would remove the shocks and replace with Zbroz coil overs. Coil overs just plain outperform the Floats in every way.
Whats your budget??

Samurai · May 9, 2009

minet said:
what is it these skids do for you?
what does " better " mean to you?

i dont know if i could tell a bad skid from a good one ,, what attributes are you looking for or trying to avoid?

gets you down the moguled trail fast and in control....long heavy machines are killer.No sagging out with a positive predictable rebound.
keeps front end down in the steep......yet has quick adjustments for more transfer for boondocking without tools.
gets up on the sunny side of the snow fast.
reduces trenching by laying flat and utilizing the whole track.
FAST adjustments[30 seconds] is the key..so your tuned for every situation rather than accepting a happy medium all day.

Better to me has been painfully expensive

Reese · May 9, 2009

Frostbite said:
I just want to make the stock skid as good as it can be made to work. :beer;

Thanks for the information.

I recall a thred this year talking about this exact subject. From what I remember the best mods to make to a stock 09 skid were to send both the front and rear arm shocks in to holz to have them revalved for your weight and riding style...cost...~$100.

Then to remove the stock spring on the front arm and replace it with a more progressive spring stack that will prevent bottoming the front suspension arm while still being soft enought to let the sled get up on top of the snow with out trenching.

Right now this is on my list for summer mods... unless I win the lotto, then I would go with Baker/Racers edge suspension.

Maybe some of you guys have tried this..... If so please report your experiences with this set up as I have only read about it.

Frostbite · May 9, 2009

That's right! I forgot about sending the shock to Holz. Heck, they are even in Washington.

If they can make my suspension work better, then I will be happy. If they can do it for $100, I'll be even happier.

Maybe that's the way to go?

Reese · May 9, 2009

My bad on the price frostbite. Here is a link to holz shock service page: http://www.holzracingproducts.com/index.php/sled/service/

Looks more like ~$75 the float shock and ~$65 for the zero pro. Not sure on spring selection and what new springs would cost. I wouldn't think it would be too bad.

I would still like to hear about results from anyone who has taken this approach.

Bearcat · May 10, 2009

Has anyone tried a longer shock in the middle? Stock one is really silly small stick which is just too short and thin to be good shock even you do anything to it. This is just my opinion

So 1½"-2" longer and 44mm thick shock with real spring should be good enough. It will be heavier than stock but need to sacrifice something...

Oh! I noticed one thing which is quite important. New front arm is really weak. I reshimmed my front shock so it doesn't bottom anymore. After that front arm bent because of stiffer setup. So I had to weld more steel to strengthen it up.

backcountryislife · May 10, 2009

Frostbite, to answer your question, yes the expansion chambers will help. Like others have said, an aftermarket suspension is probably going to help more, but it also costs more.

There aren't a lot of those chambers out west, but I got to ride two sleds with them this year & DID notice a difference, I think if I had tuned them to exactly my weight & riding style I would have liked them even more. I thought they did what I'm always looking for, give a plush ride over bumps & allow the skid to be soft enough to transfer, but then hold up to a big landing when the time comes.
I'm not sure why (aside from laziness) I haven't given them a try on my sled, they seem to work well.
I would probably spring the extra cash for the nextechs though (on the front at least), larger canister & VERY easy adjustability. (I rode one with the nextechs & one with those other ones, both sled owners were from the midwest) I think one of the guys was 00buck on here if I recall.

Bearcat, shock tech (mk2g60 I think on here) will mod a float to mid shock length, I would guess he would make it longer if you wanted him to for you.

Is the "Geo" mod suitable for 2009 M series rear skids?

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