Suspension, Clutching and More.. Question of the ages.

X2Freeride · Dec 3, 2009

brahm said:
Thanks again, it does help with the peak rpm issue, but it still gets me wondering why does the sled not feel like it's got as much "umph" in the 4000+ rpm range ie.. sure it can get to 8500, but it doesn't get to 8500 as quickly as it used to get to 7800. That's where my major concern is.

I dont know a whole lot about the team tied hopefully someone can elaborate on that. Nor have I ever been a big fan of the team clutches I run a Hyperlite on my X2 mod. Here is what I would do If I were you. Take your original stock secondary and put it on. See how the sled reacts from there. Adjust accordingly making sure everything is correct then put the team tied back on and make adjustments to it from there.

brahm · Dec 3, 2009

98psi700rmk said:
I dont know a whole lot about the team tied hopefully someone can elaborate on that. Nor have I ever been a big fan of the team clutches I run a Hyperlite on my X2 mod. Here is what I would do If I were you. Take your original stock secondary and put it on. See how the sled reacts from there. Adjust accordingly making sure everything is correct then put the team tied back on and make adjustments to it from there.

Well my stock secondary had some "issues" which is why I replaced it when I road the sled after putting the team secondary on, but not the primary adjustments, head, 19t gear, or strap adjustments. It was just as snappy as before but alot smoother. The 2 issues I'm having now (spinning to high, which can be fixed by adding weight, or changing the clickers), and the appearnce of not climbing the RPM band as quickly (ie loss in power) are related to something I changed after the secondary swap.

-Brahm

ReTodd · Dec 3, 2009

Hey there,

Another thing to consider is the snow conditions....I was out Saturday on Baker and there was only about 12" of powder above 6000ft...Under the powder it was ice so you may just be noticing a lack of traction. I also have the Team Tied and I think it works great so far so I don't think that is your problem.

I would comment that gearing down to a 19/45 is too low for a 151" track...that combined with your over-revving could make it feel less snappy. Try clicking down 1 or 2 clicks and see how she feels....and yes, get quick clickers! Also make sure all 3 clickers are on the same setting.

Also, keep in mind that although the wheelie monster is fun some times, you are actually losing performance any time you pull the front end more than a foot or so off the snow (your attack angle gets too steep and you lose forward speed).

Prey for snow.

Rt

brahm · Dec 3, 2009

ReTodd said:
Hey there,

Another thing to consider is the snow conditions....I was out Saturday on Baker and there was only about 12" of powder above 6000ft...Under the powder it was ice so you may just be noticing a lack of traction. I also have the Team Tied and I think it works great so far so I don't think that is your problem.

I would comment that gearing down to a 19/45 is too low for a 151" track...that combined with your over-revving could make it feel less snappy. Try clicking down 1 or 2 clicks and see how she feels....and yes, get quick clickers! Also make sure all 3 clickers are on the same setting.

Also, keep in mind that although the wheelie monster is fun some times, you are actually losing performance any time you pull the front end more than a foot or so off the snow (your attack angle gets too steep and you lose forward speed).

Prey for snow.

Rt

Hi Todd,
Thanks for the response. I just heard back from Team they are sticking to there guns and suggest I keep my clickers @ 4, and instead increase the weights to 15. They also want me to double check that my helix is on the / 66-62.33, and not 66-60.36

As far as pulling the skis, ya It's not "my goal", but just how I noticed it was down on performance. I also ran it with the track off the ground and noticed the rpm ramp up slower then I recalled them doing so in the past under the same situation.

snowyo · Dec 3, 2009

Interesting read,another thing to consider with the mods would be airflow.....more compression needs more air....and so on....fling your side door open while it's on the track stand to see if it wakes up a bit.....that's if you haven't put any extra airmods on to compensate...

brahm · Dec 3, 2009

snowyo said:
Interesting read,another thing to consider with the mods would be airflow.....more compression needs more air....and so on....fling your side door open while it's on the track stand to see if it wakes up a bit.....that's if you haven't put any extra airmods on to compensate...

Hi Snowyo,
Unfortunately when I was testing it with the track off the ground I did have the side panel open ( I was also watching how the clutches behaved )

hmm.

brahm · Dec 3, 2009

Hmm, well I can't set my pin weight to 15g even as per recommended due to my kit going in increments of 14.6, 15.4, 15.9. I decided to go with 15.4 to be on the safe side vs going to light w/14.6.. putting it all back together right now.. guess we will see how it goes; hopefully if there is any increase in power from shimming the needle, and changing the pilot jet it will offset the 15.4 to put me where I should be with the 15.. If not.. I guess I'll get a little more experience working on my clutch!

X2Freeride · Dec 3, 2009

brahm said:
Hmm, well I can't set my pin weight to 15g even as per recommended due to my kit going in increments of 14.6, 15.4, 15.9. I decided to go with 15.4 to be on the safe side vs going to light w/14.6.. putting it all back together right now.. guess we will see how it goes; hopefully is there is any increase in power from shimming the needle, and changing the pilot jet it will offset the 15.4 to put me where I should be with the 15.. If not.. I guess I'll get a little more experience working on my clutch!

That .4 shouldn't be a big problem. Im curious to see how the sled pulls after this change. Be sure to let us know. :beer;

brahm · Dec 3, 2009

98psi700rmk said:
That .4 shouldn't be a big problem. Im curious to see how the sled pulls after this change. Be sure to let us know. :beer;

Will do..unfortunately I broke my driven bolt inside the Counter Shaft while torquing down the secondary. Note to self.. Don't torque and converse at the same time. Luckily I was able to extract it without damaging anything. (had to drill it out then managed to get a hook with a flat head and back it out, I also had to heat it up with some boiling water which made the process the a lot easier)

Need to see if I can pick up a M8 X 75 tomorrow.

X2Freeride · Dec 3, 2009

brahm said:
Will do..unfortunately I broke my driven bolt inside the Counter Shaft while torquing down the secondary. Note to self.. Don't torque and converse at the same time. Luckily I was able to extract it without damaging anything. (had to drill it out then managed to get a hook with a flat head and back it out, I also had to heat it up with some boiling water which made the process the a lot easier)

Need to see if I can pick up a M8 X 75 tomorrow.

Ouch at least it came out!!!

GUNGA GALUNGA · Dec 4, 2009

ditto

snowyo said:
Interesting read[/B],...

x2
Thanks for the great post and answers

brahm · Dec 8, 2009

So, took her out for the first trial run after updating to the 15.4 pin weights/clicker @ 4. Got in some fresh groomed trail riding, and some good powder/hill and under load stuff.

Not what I expected.

It definitely is a better then before under load, but the RPMS still seem a bit low, in the pow and on the hill big back shift, and then seems to hold around 7800 or so, and the backshift seems "large"

Off load, (on the trails). It will scream up to 8.5 easily (I wasn't letting it get any higher) I would have to ride @ 3/4 throttle as if I pinned it.. I could easily see it hitting 9k (not something I want to do), and with that said my MPH is way down from what I could normally get in the flats.

Another thing I noticed while both my clutches are considerably lower in temp the Primary clutch is getting "warm" to the touch (but still touch able), after pulls under load (ie pinning it threw the powder) while the secondary clutch is cool to the touch showing no signs of heat.

Thoughts? Increase the pin weight more??

ReTodd · Dec 8, 2009

I think you already mentioned this but you gotta stop trying to make 3 or 4 changes at a time. Tuning a sled takes a bit of patience and I know its tough when your jonesin to ride but you have so many differnt things happening at once its impossible to tell.

I know I already said this but you need to go back to 20tooth top gear....that will pull your rpm's down on the trail and will increase your trail speed. It will not have much of an impact on your steep and deep rpm's.

Rt

brahm · Dec 8, 2009

ReTodd said:
I think you already mentioned this but you gotta stop trying to make 3 or 4 changes at a time. Tuning a sled takes a bit of patience and I know its tough when your jonesin to ride but you have so many differnt things happening at once its impossible to tell.

I know I already said this but you need to go back to 20tooth top gear....that will pull your rpm's down on the trail and will increase your trail speed. It will not have much of an impact on your steep and deep rpm's.

Rt

Thanks for the Response ReTodd.
I don't mind a lower trail speed. I'm not a trail rider. It's just an observation for diagnostic purposes. What my issue is, is that it will over rev while not under load (ie on the trails). As far as changes, I've only been making 1 clutching adjustment at time since my initial install of the primary. (I was at clicker 4 before) all I did this round was up the pin weight from 13.8. to 15.4. I do still have the shims and jets, but I haven't installed them yet. I don't think they are the reason why I'm over revving. If anything making the motor run better will cause it to over rev faster. I also don't want to change the carbs until I can do a Full throttle run, and check my plugs..which I can't to do until I get my sled to keep the RPMs within a tolerable range when pinned.

gman086 · Dec 9, 2009

Throw more pinweight at her! That will bring the primary temps down too. Secondary isn't expected to get hot since that's the big benefit of the tied version. The big thing is to get your rpm's at the shiftout rpm's that Trygs recommends with that head in clicker 3-4. Then check the backshift characteristics and change secondary spring or helix as needed to dial to your liking.

Have FUN!

G MAN

brahm · Dec 9, 2009

gman086 said:
Throw more pinweight at her! That will bring the primary temps down too. Secondary isn't expected to get hot since that's the big benefit of the tied version. The big thing is to get your rpm's at the shiftout rpm's that Trygs recommends with that head in clicker 3-4. Then check the backshift characteristics and change secondary spring or helix as needed to dial to your liking.

Have FUN!

G MAN

Thanks Gman, for you time again..but I've got a snag! I took her back out today, this time I was able to do some decent high altitude climbs in some setup snow (which had pockets of deep wind buffed bottomless patches).. I did about 4-5 pulls. What I noticed is that the sled gets to about 8200-8300, backshifts to around 7700 or so, then pulls back up to around 7800-8000, which I believe is really close to where I want it to be when it comes to climbing correct? If anything I might be able to get away with a little less weight no? To get it to pull back to 8100-8200 after the back shift?

So with that said it seems like I'm really close to being on point with my "powder/hill" clutching but way to light for anything that isn't under load (ie flats, trails, ect)... Am I doomed to switching clicker forever, or is there away to nail your clutching for the best of both worlds? I definetly felt like I could use a little more power/rpm as it did almost bog and die when I hit a deep soft patch durning one of the climbs (while unlike before it defeintly would have died) it seemed to just hang for a second then pick up the pace again (at around 8000)

As per discussion with Team tomorrow I'm going to drop my clickers down to 3 and see what kind of rpm I get on the flats since all the tests I've done so far have been with the clickers on 4.

On the plus side I hot lapped 3 or so pulls, then felt my clutches. Seconday is cool to the touch, the primary is definitely getting warm but I can still hold on. The average pull is about 20-30 seconds full throttle. (guessing)

For reference the flats I'm riding on are @ 9000'
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...718,-119.035964&spn=0.034725,0.05918&t=p&z=15

and my pulls are from aprox 9800' to about 10200'
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...869,-119.049354&spn=0.034711,0.05918&t=p&z=15

Dootimes2 · Dec 9, 2009

Two things. 1 You may need to drop about 1/2 gram. 2 you may need to go to the other setting on your helix to get a shallower angle to hold the backshift rpm's better. I know they said otherwise but it might be too steep. Also install some quick clickers.You can change settings in about 30 seconds. I have to go from 2 on the trail to 5 in the hills. It's on an 07 but it rips in both situations. I guess that is 3 things but at this point does it really matter. Good luck.

gman086 · Dec 10, 2009

Dootimes could be right on the helix; unfortunately you're the guinea pig with that new secondary. The rpm problem could also be the ramps. You can make stock 415's work in clicker 4 for the mid altitudes but my feeling is you need steeper 417 ramps for your altitudes which will also improve your backshift. The 415 ramps just don't cut it with the '07 800R if you ask me. Could also try an even higher finish rate primary spring like a 160-350 with more pinweight; can give more consistent rpm's at altitude (might try that first since it will be cheapest). Also I tune the opposite of you... I get the right rpm's in the flats THEN do a steep pull. Most times I'll just have to clicker up one at best to maintain proper rpm in the steeps.

Have FUN!

G MAN

brahm · Dec 10, 2009

Dootimes2 said:
Two things. 1 You may need to drop about 1/2 gram. 2 you may need to go to the other setting on your helix to get a shallower angle to hold the backshift rpm's better. I know they said otherwise but it might be too steep. Also install some quick clickers.You can change settings in about 30 seconds. I have to go from 2 on the trail to 5 in the hills. It's on an 07 but it rips in both situations. I guess that is 3 things but at this point does it really matter. Good luck.

gman086 said:
Dootimes could be right on the helix; unfortunately you're the guinea pig with that new secondary. The rpm problem could also be the ramps. You can make stock 415's work in clicker 4 for the mid altitudes but my feeling is you need steeper 417 ramps for your altitudes which will also improve your backshift. The 415 ramps just don't cut it with the '07 800R if you ask me. Could also try an even higher finish rate primary spring like a 160-350 with more pinweight; can give more consistent rpm's at altitude (might try that first since it will be cheapest). Also I tune the opposite of you... I get the right rpm's in the flats THEN do a steep pull. Most times I'll just have to clicker up one at best to maintain proper rpm in the steeps.

Have FUN!

G MAN

Hmm, Thanks for the responses guys. I have yet to put the helix on the angle.. although I do believe I am on the shallower of the 2. (I'm still learning here so sorry if I have it backwards) My helix is a 66-60.36/66-62.33 and I have it on the 66-62.33 which is supposed to ship up faster?

Quick Clickers will do!

Hmm, changing the ramps and the springs.. before I do that again I really think I need to have a better understand of how everything interacts, and how the different numbers correlate to what. I feel like I'm really close, Hmm on that note.. I did start testing with the clickers down at 2 and on the flats.
She pulls to 8400-8500 rpm and won't got past now, and it definitely doesn't shot up the rpm range as quickly and makes no effort to flash past 8500. It also takes a lot longer to go from say 8100-8500 then before. I basically am I running out of flat just a few seconds after it peaks. While before it would flash way passed if I kept it pinned @ WOT.

ReTodd · Dec 10, 2009

Well, just a note on the Tied... and it ain't your problem as I've got the same on my sled (same helix as you) and have had it out 6 times this year and it is very responsive so I wouldn't focus on it.....gotta be something else.

You need to PM Winterbrew and ask him what happens to Skidoo clutching when you gear too low.....

Also, the only variable which you have changed that would really have this much affect on your wheelie factor is the head you put in.......

Suspension, Clutching and More.. Question of the ages.

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