Looks to me like you are no different... You want what you want, I want what I want... Human nature
Anyone in Colorado know these guys?
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Looks to me like you are no different... You want what you want, I want what I want... Human nature
R
Certainly, but some of us want to provide you with the ability to satisfy your wants.
Some people want a non-motorized experience. I WANT them to have a place to be able to do that.
Some people are recreational shooters, I want them to have a place to enjoy their hobby.
Some people are white supremacist neo nazi knuckleheads. I want them to be able to speak their mind.
I don't want to infringe on anyone's rights. I also don't want my actions to have a negative impact on other people.
I may not agree with non-motorized white-supremacist target shooters, but I'll do everything I can to ensure they get to do what they want to do, because I'd like to do what I want to do.
If they go out of their way to have a negative impact on my life, though, why on earth SHOULD I do anything with their benefit in mind?
(that's a rhetorical question - I should because I can't hold YOU against all of US {snowmobilers}, that'd not be fair)
Hairy smelly hippy chicks
R
OK, so you think I should be able to do anything I want with public lands.
One of the places I ride has a HUGE beetlekill problem. I wish it would burn.
In your world, I could start that fire, and that'd be ok?
Does it really matter if you start it or the lightning strike? Same end result...
Now if we had not shut loggers out of the woods and tried to save the beetle by not spraying affected areas anymore, we wouldn't have that problem.
See, it was a misguided attempt to save us from ourselves that created the massive beetle kill problem. Another govt centric solution driven by greeenies with no actual experience that has harmed all of our experiences. A lot like land closures IMO. You should reconsider supporting either...
Those lands have been managed by the same morons in charge of closures for recreational opportunities. Both ends of the system have been ruined by big central govt, you know, the guys you support and trust to make good decisions for you.
What would be great is if the USFS would admit to abysmal land management practices unduly influenced by politics and start changing their ways. Unlikely since they are underworked and overpaid, seriously complacent in a job they can't get fired from no matter how bad they screw up. The clowns you support and trust are directly responsible for the beetle kill area you speak of. So you clearly support all of these bad practices?
Such a warm fuzzy thought... None of your business and I didn't ask for your help, thanks anyway. Not your job to fix it for everybody, you have no idea what everybody wants.
They have 120 million acres of Wilderness designation. If they can not find quiet recreation, they aren't even trying. In Colorado you can't hardly throw stone anymore without hitting wilderness. So they have what you want for them???
I agree but it is not realistic to give every little group their own little piece of the pie. That would be an endless stream of special interest, impossible to satisfy that desire. We need to SHARE the lands and be TOLERANT of each other, what the left constantly preaches but has a difficult time acting on themselves.
...and many sledders have had negative experiences with skiers, this is hardly one sided. In fact I think skiers in general harbor far more vitriol for sleds than the other way around. They are willing to lie against us even when we have not done anything "wrong". But yeah, you guys all join hands and sing cum ba ya, I am sure it will all work itself out if we can all just be friends.
S
It does matter. If a lightning starts it, well that's nature taking its course. and that's ONE strike. Now lets say 1000 people have your attitude and decide to go out and start a fire........ think of that outcome. Or maybe just head to local snowmobile dealer and steal a sled. Whats the harm, right? Dealer has all the sleds stolen by half-wits and they go out of business. No where to steal or buy a sled. So how you gonna ride your wilderness area with no machine? This is where common sense can step in................ Jesus
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Sooo much more open riding area! Fresh new growth forests springing up all over replacing the ones full of deadfall...
Pretty far fetched comparison, nice try though.
You should REALLY try to look someplace besides big government for your direction and solutions to problems in your life. They aren't very good at it, never have been...
S
Who said anything about me looking to government for direction? And please fill me in on "problems" I have in my life? As far as I know, Things are going pretty damn good. Even with alot of backcountry areas posted as wilderness, I still am smart enough to find plenty of areas to ride.
Please describe your education levels. A picture of your college graduation degree would be helpful for all here to understand what kind of IQ we are dealing with.
Funny, a buddy and I were talking this weekend and he mention how many snowmobilers he run across are selfish idiots that make our sport like like a bunch of bafoons. Thinking they can do whatever they want, when they want, just because.
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S
He has graduated with the Youtube conspiracy degree. Facebook anti-government diploma. Lets not forget 10 grade class clown.
He is loud, insulting, and mixes up extremist point of views really consistently. Well done.
Anyway I'm sure these guys are happy those "government employees" saved them.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/lo...snowmobile-ottawa-national-forest/2836189002/
Sounds like a bunch of clowns that screwed up and needed to be rescued. Luckily there are people who work for the public to help their fellow citizens.
S
R
Exactly. However, "sharing" is not "screw you, go somewhere else."
I've spent most of my winter in a perfectly legal place, parking in plain sight on the side of a paved road, and I've seen exactly ZERO other people - motorized or otherwise - some of us DO try (desperately) to get away from other people.
I agree that there's a lot of underutilized wilderness.
I also KNOW that there are PLENTY of places with good snowmobiling in Colorado that are a reasonable distance from metro Denver for day trips that have close to zero traffic. I've actually kinda screwed myself, all the recent snow, I have to start over building my road network.
I don't see how I'm being at all intolerant - I have an active desire to create space for all user groups. How, exactly, is that a problem?
Note that in my earlier post I said VP is full of "rude people." I did not specify transport mode. I agree, they come in all shapes and sizes. Non-motorized people can be inconsiderate and rude, too, and that sucks - but a snowshoer can't trash a snowmobiler's reward in ten minutes, either.
I've seen it happen, too - I've watched a snowmobiler intentionally try to put tracks on a slope people were intending to ski. Thankfully, he got stuck, but come on - KNOWINGLY trying to trench out ski terrain when there are virtually NO OTHER TRACKS ON THE HILL?
It was ~9am on a weekday, two feet new. We were the only ones there. Unreal, and that guy is/was a skier, he knew exactly what he was doing.
Is that sharing? Tolerance?
Just one example, sure, but there are plenty, and snowshoers/xc skiers/backcountry skiers/xc snowboarders simply _can't_ have the negative impact a snowmobile can on your recreation opportunity; yeah, a skier can wave a pole, they often walk three abreast down the middle of the road with dogs scurrying around everywhere, ugh, really, people? come on....I get it, they're annoying, they annoy me, too.
The point is, if a Saint Bernard and a Chihuahua are going to share a bowl of dog food, the Saint Bernard would need to show some restraint.
We're kinda the "saint bernard" of this equation.
Simple, I am listening to what everyone here is saying, and I'm sympathtetic with most of them. While most have explained their views quite well, you, my friend, are not listening. You are failing to follow your own advice, and you are attacking them for their views. You may be the internet bully that you despise...
The quips about fox news etc are pretty telling.
Unless you're a leftist, it is a fact that our mainstream media leans WAY to the left. If you can't acknowledge this, you might consider that it may be you who has been brainwashed.
It seems to me that talk radio is one of the last places to get the "other side" of the story. This is particularly true with our media mostly ignoring anything that doesn't suit their agenda. I do tire of the angry conspiracy theory side of it, but surprisingly, those theories often turn out to be fairly accurate in the long term.
Here's what I'd like to see in the news: 99.99% of snowmobilers don't throw out trash, are respectful of other forest users, and respect wilderness boundaries.
Nope, not gonna hear that. Doesn't suit the agenda. Instead the media goes looking for the one or two stories a year that have people in the wrong, and make no mention of how much a minority they are.
I won't badmouth lower level government employees like park rangers, but I'll stand firm in my belief that most upper level employees (AKA bureaucrats) are useless political pawns not at all burdened with any sort of accountability in their decision making.
I beg you to try to listen to the other side of the story, and listen to what people from all sides and views say. You might even try to listen to the news outlets you bash.
As for this thread, if these guys were in violation on purpose, I'm all for fining them. If they were there by accident, I think they should be excused for their lack of "intent". After all, it kept Hillary out of prison when she broke the law.
I go to meetings, support CSA and my local clubs, and I speak up. Without that, I have no doubt that you'd be skiing into your favorite skiing areas rather than riding, particularly in Colo-fornia.
You're welcome.
The quips about fox news etc are pretty telling.
Unless you're a leftist, it is a fact that our mainstream media leans WAY to the left. If you can't acknowledge this, you might consider that it may be you who has been brainwashed.
It seems to me that talk radio is one of the last places to get the "other side" of the story. This is particularly true with our media mostly ignoring anything that doesn't suit their agenda. I do tire of the angry conspiracy theory side of it, but surprisingly, those theories often turn out to be fairly accurate in the long term.
Here's what I'd like to see in the news: 99.99% of snowmobilers don't throw out trash, are respectful of other forest users, and respect wilderness boundaries.
Nope, not gonna hear that. Doesn't suit the agenda. Instead the media goes looking for the one or two stories a year that have people in the wrong, and make no mention of how much a minority they are.
I won't badmouth lower level government employees like park rangers, but I'll stand firm in my belief that most upper level employees (AKA bureaucrats) are useless political pawns not at all burdened with any sort of accountability in their decision making.
I beg you to try to listen to the other side of the story, and listen to what people from all sides and views say. You might even try to listen to the news outlets you bash.
As for this thread, if these guys were in violation on purpose, I'm all for fining them. If they were there by accident, I think they should be excused for their lack of "intent". After all, it kept Hillary out of prison when she broke the law.
I go to meetings, support CSA and my local clubs, and I speak up. Without that, I have no doubt that you'd be skiing into your favorite skiing areas rather than riding, particularly in Colo-fornia.
You're welcome.
S
Hey man I feel ya. Keep in mind that I have my own way of communicating with trolls. I don't back down. If we have an actual conservation I always keep it civil. I am very centered, get my information from far too many sources, well educated, very well traveled, and work very hard in the real world of advocacy.
I may be guilty of stirring the pot in order to create a conversation that I find surprisingly quiet for a pretty serious subject IMO. I'm not afraid of offending people because I think their online persona needs a reality check once in a while. My thought is the conversation goes beyond this bubble and into the real world where people actually share their opinion beyond "that guy is an idiot"
But yes I stand by my fight against ignorance, intolerance, anti-government, anti-science, hate, and so much more ugly behavoir that have infiltrated our society in my life. The technology we have been given should unite us and instead it has separated us into tribal factions. My tribe is worldwide.
S
I'll disagree with you on this point:
There is no argument on one simple fact, riding a snowmobile or snowbike in the Wilderness is NOT LEGAL and subject to fines and jail time.
Those views that have been explained are merely excuses for why they feel like the rules aren't fair, seem stupid, or aren't constitutional. All those views have been proven wrong time and time again. Yet they still come up. So no, I'm not listening to them. I'm out there educating them of where those boundaries are and how to not cross them (intentionally or by accident) so that they don't get in trouble and in a worse case get exposed by the media which further puts our sport in jeopardy.
Shoot, some people don't know the difference between what Wilderness and wilderness is. This is an easy one to educate on. They don't know where the boundary is so we hand them a map or describe plainly which ridge separates the two zones. It is a constant effort, especially with those visiting here in Colorado. I don't put them down, I know how to educate adults through many years of practice and formal training. Online, people act differently so you have to adjust your practice and unfortunately take it down to their level to get a point across. It is kind of fun and easy to get caught up in but again it is still a discussion even though it is at the level of middle school or whatever. Anyone can be online no matter their age or education. I could be talking to a teenager who is filled with rage over a world that seems to be burning. Who knows. I'm still doing my thing, not influenced by the extremists, and having a great time snowmobiling in deep powder. Hope you are as well.
So it is OK with you that in the passage of most of the more recent Wilderness bills that they no longer adhere to the original rules and intent? Essentially through politics they have taken lands off the table that often do not meet the criteria established for such designations and closures. You claim it is constitutional to do so? The process has produced these places, they are land grabs that serve no real purpose other than exercising control where you once had none.
So tell us about your plan to turn this all around. You claim to be smart, claim to be educated, which are two different things... Do you just plan to hang out around the various wilderness closures and hand out maps educating users? I mean if that's it, I am not so sure anything other than the odd wilderness line crossing will be affected.
I want to hear how you propose to get our lands back, do you have a plan for that? Seems like you really do not have a clue what the land use fight is like. Seems like you are just trying to run around the forum and tell us how smart you are and bad rep all my posts... who is the teenager behind the keyboard?
S
Tell me where you live and I'll be happy to provide the contact information for the persons you need to talk to in order to get your questions answered.
I'm an educator, not a bureaucrat sorry. I'm fighting land usage issues just the same way we all are. By working together and making our voices and written words paid attention to.
How do you we get land back? Ok, I've discussed this before. Once it is mapped it is nearly impossible to change the land use away from Wilderness. Our main focus is to ensure that all user groups are heard in the process of changing current open national forest, BLM lands, etc towards potential Wilderness. We have been successful in many battles (Hidden Gems, San Juans, etc) but we have lost too many as well. There is a system to all this and it takes people power and money to make a difference.
So why are you wasting your time fighting me? Don't like my tactics? Too bad, the renegade behavior, excuses, and infighting doesn't help hold the line against losing further land to multiple uses. Acting like the lines don't mean anything is selfish and childish behavior.
Are you in the fight in the Sierras, CA? Jackson, WY? San Juans, CO? Why not? They are all asking for SNOWMOBILERS to join up to resist the potential loss of CURRENT land usage.
BTW, sometimes those "land grabs" as you call Wilderness are a good idea. If they are areas that should be protected from only the most limited human interaction because they are pristine and such then I support it. I don't believe that every piece of land should be open season for extraction of surface or sub-surface goods and unlimited recreation. Again, I understand both points of view.
I'm an educator, not a bureaucrat sorry. I'm fighting land usage issues just the same way we all are. By working together and making our voices and written words paid attention to.
How do you we get land back? Ok, I've discussed this before. Once it is mapped it is nearly impossible to change the land use away from Wilderness. Our main focus is to ensure that all user groups are heard in the process of changing current open national forest, BLM lands, etc towards potential Wilderness. We have been successful in many battles (Hidden Gems, San Juans, etc) but we have lost too many as well. There is a system to all this and it takes people power and money to make a difference.
So why are you wasting your time fighting me? Don't like my tactics? Too bad, the renegade behavior, excuses, and infighting doesn't help hold the line against losing further land to multiple uses. Acting like the lines don't mean anything is selfish and childish behavior.
Are you in the fight in the Sierras, CA? Jackson, WY? San Juans, CO? Why not? They are all asking for SNOWMOBILERS to join up to resist the potential loss of CURRENT land usage.
BTW, sometimes those "land grabs" as you call Wilderness are a good idea. If they are areas that should be protected from only the most limited human interaction because they are pristine and such then I support it. I don't believe that every piece of land should be open season for extraction of surface or sub-surface goods and unlimited recreation. Again, I understand both points of view.
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Huh? I don't think we disagree at all...
I said I was sympathetic to the views expressed by others, which means I understand them, not that I necessarily agree with them.
I agree with you that riding a sled inside Wilderness boundaries is illegal, and not a great plan. (Ie, not really helping our cause...)
But I also understand how people can get angry as more and more of the riding area they enjoyed previously is taken from them under the banner of "compromise". Angry enough in some cases to either perform or suggest acts of civil disobedience as the next step. Like riding in wilderness areas.
If we can't figure out how to sympathize with others, then we aren't going to be able to help them find a better way to accomplish what it is we all seek. At some point, we may indeed find that acts of civil disobedience are all that we have left, though I seriously hope it doesn't come to that.
So it is true, you are doing nothing but running your mouth on the keyboard... What are you going to do refer me to the local club? The CSA which I left years ago due to disagreements on how to try and move forward?
I live in the N. San Juans, should I contact the Montrose club? You realize they have zero interest in land use issues right?
That pretty funny, again, it tells me you are simply full of it and, aren't actually doing anything. Some of us have actually participated in the process, you show no signs of understanding what that entails which proves to me yet again that you really are not involved beyond this thread on snowest...
That was ME that did the work in the San Juans, and it wasn't the victory you claim. On the northern end, Red Mtn Pass, I was able to stave off any changes to the current boundaries. We did give up a 1/4 mi wide stretch along Hwy 550 that wasn't really any good to us and I help put up the boundary signs up there to mark it.
There was still a 40,000 acre additional closure down around Molas Pass in the same forest revision. I wouldn't call that a win by any standard...
I am contentious with you because I think you are part of the problem. I do not see any evidence that you actually understand the battle going on and I certainly see no evidence that you have sacrificed any of your time or resources to promote our rights as citizens who snowmobile.
We need to PURGE guys like you from the group so that we can get on with a plan that will work. Getting your voice heard isn't going to do it son, you are dreaming...
The lines have been drawn in an illegal fashion, period. Politics, not good policy has put them in place. They need to be actively protested, that is the ONLY way this ship will ever change course.
Nope, no dog in the fight anymore. I refuse to waste my time as you suggest because I have seen EXACTLY how it plays out every time. Some pantywaiste like yourself will come along and want to try and have reasonable discussion with then opposition. Now if you had actually tried this, over and over for years, like I have, you would understand how fruitless it is, just a waste of time because they will lie to your face time and again to get what they want. It isn't our side being selfish and unreasonable, it is the other side and you are helping them.
Truth is, you aren't in the fight either, are you?
Those land grabs are simply unconstitutional. If you think they are good and just you further my opinion that you continue to be part of the problem. There is more than enough land to recreate on. There is no need to segregate user groups just because they cry about it, there is no god given right to silent recreation, we all share these lands, or at least we were supposed to before guys like you came along...
I honestly do not see that you understand anything about any of this. You just posted up an inflammatory picture and started beating a tired old drum that has NEVER gained the sled community a single thing. In fact your position is guaranteed to lose us more land in compromises. Your attitude jibes perfectly with the oppositions desires, YOU are helping them with your ignorance, exactly how they planned it.
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In my opinion we are long overdue to engage in civil disobedience regarding these land closures. This entire discussion suggests we should just kick the can down the road a little further, keep working the failed policies and ideals of the past with new faces but the same old mistakes.
The tactics we have been trying, and simple acts like all of this is new, have not been working. We have been trying to negotiate on these issues for going on 20 years just in the sled community. If any of you think fresh new faces with the same old failed ideas is going to move us forward, you are only fooling yourselves. The proof is in the failures we have experienced over the last 20 years. You have no victories to crow about unless mitigated losses excite you... Compromise and lose a little each time until it is gone. THAT is the plan a guy like simple is helping promote.
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