protecting the ECU?

sam776 · Feb 4, 2010

Update

I just got my 08 D8 163 back from the shop, Regulator, ECU, and Stator. They replaced the regulator and ECU to get it running, then tested the stator, 1 bad leg of three. They replaced it all for $50.00 deductible:face-icon-small-sho. They claim that the 08 and early 09 had regulator # 4011173, this was changed midway through 09 to the new part #4012476. They have not replaced any of the new Regulators, the failures that they have repaired have all been the old one. They claim that they tried to convince Polaris to replace all old part # regulators with the 2010 update, and that they wouldn't do it. So at this point it has to fail and take whatever other parts with it.
It might not be a bad idea for anyone that has a 08 or early 09 with the old part # to replace it and save that failure and trying to get your sled out of whatever crazy place:face-icon-small-sad you were at when it quits:face-icon-small-dis. I found polarispartshouse.net has them for $115.58, if I would have known ahead of time I probably would have replaced it just to keep from being stranded and loosing the use of my sled, but thats me and I know there are many that will say "Polaris should fix it"

Just me 2 cents worth. Off to Yellowstone for five days then McCall for four more!:face-icon-small-hap

thefullmonte · Feb 4, 2010

sam776 said:
I just got my 08 D8 163 back from the shop, Regulator, ECU, and Stator. They replaced the regulator and ECU to get it running, then tested the stator, 1 bad leg of three. They replaced it all for $50.00 deductible:face-icon-small-sho. They claim that the 08 and early 09 had regulator # 4011173, this was changed midway through 09 to the new part #4012476. They have not replaced any of the new Regulators, the failures that they have repaired have all been the old one. They claim that they tried to convince Polaris to replace all old part # regulators with the 2010 update, and that they wouldn't do it. So at this point it has to fail and take whatever other parts with it.
It might not be a bad idea for anyone that has a 08 or early 09 with the old part # to replace it and save that failure and trying to get your sled out of whatever crazy place:face-icon-small-sad you were at when it quits:face-icon-small-dis. I found polarispartshouse.net has them for $115.58, if I would have known ahead of time I probably would have replaced it just to keep from being stranded and loosing the use of my sled, but thats me and I know there are many that will say "Polaris should fix it"

Just me 2 cents worth. Off to Yellowstone for five days then McCall for four more!:face-icon-small-hap

Good info. Most dealers are aware of the problem and will try to get the older one warrantied regardless if it has failed. I think Skibreeze had the newer one fail on his though.

R44guy · Feb 4, 2010

Monte, did we ever get confirmation from skibreeze that his new VR failed? I think he may of ended up with some other issues? Has anyone talked about using any of the Arctic Cat VR's since in the old Gen II chassis it was a big upgrade. Yes I know things have changed with the CFI's but just thinking out loud.

skibreeze · Feb 4, 2010

Hey guys, I'm on a 12 day trip with my sled, the freakin' 600. I got my Dragon back with the old v.r. (updated) and a new ECU and it's still running lean. I'm having it dropped off with another guy to have him look at it next week. Hopefully by the time I get back from my trip we will have some answers.

diamonddave · Feb 4, 2010

Just got done chasing wires with my sled. 2009 D8 155 Electric Start 71 miles on sled running 2010 update with 2010 1st map with VR 4012476 (I hope Sam's info is correct) but I'm a little leary.

I removed my 2 extra ground wires so that I could test the sled as stock as I purchased it. Using a Blue-Point $500 multi-meter, my lab scope is being loaned out right now.

Sled has a stumble/dead spot/lean bog on initial throttle but only for the first minute maybe 90 seconds after taking off. Engine temp doesn't seem to matter (90'-120'F) It will do this all the time regardless ieven f you ride for a while and shut it off and immediately fire it up and take off. Bogg.

Not real worried about it yet as it's too early for me to really worry about it and I think sled may need more time. Plus I am installing a PCV hopefully next week.

As far as the testing goes, I verified that at exactly 10 minutes of engine idle, my snap-on laser temp gun reads 141' F at the voltage regulator with an engine coolant temp of 129'F. It seemed to be a steady increase in temp from the get go 49'F on a 50'F ambient air temp. Each of my VR to ECM wires were 3 phase 12 volts.

I also learned that the chassis ground IS at the moment making it's way to the engine without an engine ground strap, most likely through the engine mount bolts. So you can be rest assured that by adding an engine ground wire, you can only help the overall electrical system. Especially if the chassis ground/plate/clutch guart somehow looses contact at the frame and compromises. As I've previously stated, I don't feel that the chassis ground is near enough. Easy Fix!!

One very interesting thing that I found that seemed to be different than left field, is if I wiggle the electronics plate just a little, the rubber isloators will flex and will allow the electronics plate to ground through the bolts attaching it the clutch guard/chassis ground. Hmmmnn.

With my meter hooked up positive lead to 12 volts positive at the battery and my negative lead hooked up to the electronics plate, I have anywhere from 0.8-1.0 volts. A very slight wiggle and full battery voltage (12.7-14.0 volts) regardless on whether engine is running or not.

So this is telling me that at least on my sled, any slight movement of the sled and the elctronics plate is a ground.

I reattached my ground wires and findings were identical as I expected them to be after verifying engine being grounded. Funny thing is when I checked my buddies 08 D860 last season, the engine was not being grounded. So that tells me that the chassis ground on his sled was not completing circuit through most likely, engine mount bolts.

My to doo list is/would be at this point: add ground strap from chassis to engine. Fuse hand warmers as a short to ground even if you didn't add ground straps would cause a short to ground to the ECM and potentionally fry it. And like lognomore and left field have rec'd, adding a fan, relocating the capacitor. I also have side panel, shock, and even a very long large hood vent right above the electronics cover. I will keep the cover on as I feel that the protection it provides outweighs the cooling benefit due to moisture, engine heat, etc. others probably disagree.

Testing to be continued....

AKSNOWRIDER · Feb 5, 2010

diamonddave said:
Just got done chasing wires with my sled. 2009 D8 155 Electric Start 71 miles on sled running 2010 update with 2010 1st map with VR 4012476 (I hope Sam's info is correct) but I'm a little leary.

I removed my 2 extra ground wires so that I could test the sled as stock as I purchased it. Using a Blue-Point $500 multi-meter, my lab scope is being loaned out right now.

Sled has a stumble/dead spot/lean bog on initial throttle but only for the first minute maybe 90 seconds after taking off. Engine temp doesn't seem to matter (90'-120'F) It will do this all the time regardless ieven f you ride for a while and shut it off and immediately fire it up and take off. Bogg.

Not real worried about it yet as it's too early for me to really worry about it and I think sled may need more time. Plus I am installing a PCV hopefully next week.

As far as the testing goes, I verified that at exactly 10 minutes of engine idle, my snap-on laser temp gun reads 141' F at the voltage regulator with an engine coolant temp of 129'F. It seemed to be a steady increase in temp from the get go 49'F on a 50'F ambient air temp. Each of my VR to ECM wires were 3 phase 12 volts.

I also learned that the chassis ground IS at the moment making it's way to the engine without an engine ground strap, most likely through the engine mount bolts. So you can be rest assured that by adding an engine ground wire, you can only help the overall electrical system. Especially if the chassis ground/plate/clutch guart somehow looses contact at the frame and compromises. As I've previously stated, I don't feel that the chassis ground is near enough. Easy Fix!!

One very interesting thing that I found that seemed to be different than left field, is if I wiggle the electronics plate just a little, the rubber isloators will flex and will allow the electronics plate to ground through the bolts attaching it the clutch guard/chassis ground. Hmmmnn.

With my meter hooked up positive lead to 12 volts positive at the battery and my negative lead hooked up to the electronics plate, I have anywhere from 0.8-1.0 volts. A very slight wiggle and full battery voltage (12.7-14.0 volts) regardless on whether engine is running or not.

So this is telling me that at least on my sled, any slight movement of the sled and the elctronics plate is a ground.

I reattached my ground wires and findings were identical as I expected them to be after verifying engine being grounded. Funny thing is when I checked my buddies 08 D860 last season, the engine was not being grounded. So that tells me that the chassis ground on his sled was not completing circuit through most likely, engine mount bolts.

My to doo list is/would be at this point: add ground strap from chassis to engine. Fuse hand warmers as a short to ground even if you didn't add ground straps would cause a short to ground to the ECM and potentionally fry it. And like lognomore and left field have rec'd, adding a fan, relocating the capacitor. I also have side panel, shock, and even a very long large hood vent right above the electronics cover. I will keep the cover on as I feel that the protection it provides outweighs the cooling benefit due to moisture, engine heat, etc. others probably disagree.

Testing to be continued....

sooo..your coming up to do my sled when?:face-icon-small-hap

diamonddave · Feb 5, 2010

AKSNOWRIDER said:
sooo..your coming up to do my sled when?:face-icon-small-hap

More than happy to. Just have a first class ticket waiting for me. I'd love to come up there, test and ride.

LeftField · Feb 5, 2010

Diamond - Great info on the 4012476 regulator! At 10 minutes with the 4011731 regulator I was seeing 154F starting from an ambient of 52 F.

This means a 91F rise with the new VR, and a 102F rise on the old VR. So maybe an improvement? One difference we might have is our set up (I ran cover on, hood closed), not sure how you were set up.

After 16 minutes my VR was still rising at 5F / minute. I was thinking about going out and preemptively getting a new VR, but it looks like they still are going to get pretty hot.

Isn't it great standing in your driveway in a cloud of smoke? :face-icon-small-hap

diamonddave · Feb 5, 2010

LeftField said:
Diamond - Great info on the 4012476 regulator! At 10 minutes with the 4011731 regulator I was seeing 154F starting from an ambient of 52 F.

This means a 91F rise with the new VR, and a 102F rise on the old VR. So maybe an improvement? One difference we might have is our set up (I ran cover on, hood closed), not sure how you were set up.

After 16 minutes my VR was still rising at 5F / minute. I was thinking about going out and preemptively getting a new VR, but it looks like they still are going to get pretty hot.

Isn't it great standing in your driveway in a cloud of smoke? :face-icon-small-hap

Interesting. I was using my infared temp gun (snap-on) so it's good quality; hood open, electronics cover off. I would've used my thermocouple from my fluke/blue-point meter, but was using it for my electrical testing.

I think I may go up tomorrow with the thermocouple and try to get some real world tests actually riding the sled. I have a feeling that in some riding situations, the VR may get warmer than it does in my driveway.

chrisco · Feb 6, 2010

wow what a post !!!!!! thanks to all for the info. I run a 08 d8 with 3000 miles with a bd turbo and still have the stock VR and ECU but will order the new part# monday. Thanks to all again.

CHRIS

AKSNOWRIDER · Feb 6, 2010

havent had much to add here..but this might help some of you..polaris has a new team tip for the ecu and regulators....on testing them...

OVER-VOLTAGE / VOLTAGE SPIKE TEST
The diode check test cannot be used to determine if the regulator/rectifier has supplied the ECU with voltage spikes. To
determine if the regulator / rectifier has been sending voltage spikes to the ECU, the potting material on the backside of
the ECU must be inspected.
Remove the ECU from the clutch cover and inspect the potting material on the backside of the ECU. If the regulator /
rectifier has been sending the ECU voltage spikes, the potting material will be damaged in the shaded region. If the
shaded region shows signs of damage, both the ECU and regulator/rectifier must be replaced.
(I dont have a pic but it is the corner of the ecu that is closest to the single mnt and furthest away from the electrical plugs.....)

EricW · Feb 7, 2010

GMCRMK said:
Is this limited to just 800's or are 700's up in smoke too?

(If it was mentioned earlier sorry)

Lost an 07 700 here a couple weeks ago. Kids said they smelt the burnt smell after a short break on the trail then the sled began to run poorly and went into limp mode. Towed it back.

Needed to be good for a next ride so i replaced the ECU, reg, and capacitor, problem solved. While I had it on the stand I did notice bad tail light wiring that was also fixed, dont know if that was any part of the issue or not.

DiamondDave, let me know where to send the spare parts and I'll get 'em to ya to check out. Thanks to everyone for all the time spent on this. Glad all of you understand all of this.

What is the final verdict on adding the 2 additional grounds from the base plate to motor and base plate to chassis (is this correct?) yea or nea?

I bought some marine grade tinned 8 ga wire at West Marine the other day with good solder on connections. Should I do this or not?

Also, has there been any of these failures with electic start/battery installed. If not, this could be a very manly reason for me to put in the ES on my sled without being teased by my kids. Its not that I mind the 2 or 3 long pull warm starts or the 2 revolution for 10 pull cold starts with race fuel, but if I have to go ES to avoid these issues then dam it I will. i could always yank on it a few times a day if I started feeling too girly. LOL. Thanks again. EW

diamonddave · Feb 7, 2010

EricW said:
Lost an 07 700 here a couple weeks ago. Kids said they smelt the burnt smell after a short break on the trail then the sled began to run poorly and went into limp mode. Towed it back.

Needed to be good for a next ride so i replaced the ECU, reg, and capacitor, problem solved. While I had it on the stand I did notice bad tail light wiring that was also fixed, dont know if that was any part of the issue or not.

DiamondDave, let me know where to send the spare parts and I'll get 'em to ya to check out. Thanks to everyone for all the time spent on this. Glad all of you understand all of this.

What is the final verdict on adding the 2 additional grounds from the base plate to motor and base plate to chassis (is this correct?) yea or nea?

I bought some marine grade tinned 8 ga wire at West Marine the other day with good solder on connections. Should I do this or not?

Also, has there been any of these failures with electic start/battery installed. If not, this could be a very manly reason for me to put in the ES on my sled without being teased by my kids. Its not that I mind the 2 or 3 long pull warm starts or the 2 revolution for 10 pull cold starts with race fuel, but if I have to go ES to avoid these issues then dam it I will. i could always yank on it a few times a day if I started feeling too girly. LOL. Thanks again. EW

What's the number on your failed VR?

Thanks Eric,

There seems to be one or two ES sleds that have had the VR and ECU go down from what I've read. My knowledge in this arena (automotive electrical) is why I made my 09 Dragon purchase mandatory e-start. I wanted the battery more than anything as it is an awesome addition to the sleds electrical system. Not only that, but once you have had it, you'll never not want it again.

A battery is the best way to absorb high and low voltage spikes, etc. in a (what I call) dirty electrical system. You can certainly add a battery without the starter if you'd like and if I had a non e-start sled, I'd be doing it for sure. Polaris sells a complete e-start system that includes everything except the battery. So if you wanted to purchase a light weight battery....

As far as adding a ground strap. ABSOLUTLEY it CAN be added and should be added. Testing on my 09 revealed that the (poor) chassis ground IS completing a ground circuit through the engine. Most likely, the chassis (bulkhead) is transmitting through the motor mount bolts.

My reason for adding the extra ground straps, is without one, we are depending on the factory clutch cover (which by itself is not near enough to provide a ground for every electrical item in the sled) retaining a perfect metal to metal connection through black frame and then to the bulkhead. Any flexing of the clutch guard could and will eventually create a compromise in the ground circuit and it's game over for the ECM (ECU)

As I previously stated, Fusing of the hand warmers AND the rear tail light would be another great addition as currently, a short to ground in these items and it's related wiring will be devastating on the ECM (ECU)

AKSNOWRIDER · Feb 7, 2010

diamonddave said:
What's the number on your failed VR?

Thanks Eric,

There seems to be one or two ES sleds that have had the VR and ECU go down from what I've read. My knowledge in this arena (automotive electrical) is why I made my 09 Dragon purchase mandatory e-start. I wanted the battery more than anything as it is an awesome addition to the sleds electrical system. Not only that, but once you have had it, you'll never not want it again.

A battery is the best way to absorb high and low voltage spikes, etc. in a (what I call) dirty electrical system. You can certainly add a battery without the starter if you'd like and if I had a non e-start sled, I'd be doing it for sure. Polaris sells a complete e-start system that includes everything except the battery. So if you wanted to purchase a light weight battery....

As far as adding a ground strap. ABSOLUTLEY it CAN be added and should be added. Testing on my 09 revealed that the (poor) chassis ground IS completing a ground circuit through the engine. Most likely, the chassis (bulkhead) is transmitting through the motor mount bolts.

My reason for adding the extra ground straps, is without one, we are depending on the factory clutch cover (which by itself is not near enough to provide a ground for every electrical item in the sled) retaining a perfect metal to metal connection through black frame and then to the bulkhead. Any flexing of the clutch guard could and will eventually create a compromise in the ground circuit and it's game over for the ECM (ECU)

As I previously stated, Fusing of the hand warmers AND the rear tail light would be another great addition as currently, a short to ground in these items and it's related wiring will be devastating on the ECM (ECU)

Still waiting for ya to come do mine dave....:face-icon-small-hap

LeftField · Feb 7, 2010

70mm Fan results

Got the 70mm fan on the VR Saturday and saw much lower temperatures. After 16 minutes, the temp was 109F, compared with 184F with no fan. Pix and temperature data attached. My guess is the regulator is going to live a lot longer running 75-100 degrees cooler. Mounted the capacitor on the outside of the electronics cover, just above the PTO cylinder. I'm going to leave the thermocouple on and will monitor it on the next ride.

With a little luck hoping this avoids a ruined ride and hauling parts into the back bowls of Bear Paw....

crashnbash · Feb 7, 2010

R44guy said:
Has any one heard of any PCV failures after losing the VR & ECU? I just wanted to see if any one who has a PCV installed and burned down due to the VR & ECU had any issues with the PCV? I dont think it can happen but I was just looking for confirmation to see if the PCV was ok after the VR & ECU were replaced. Thanks for any help and sorry to jack the thread a bit.

When my ecu and vr went out it also took out the pcv, but did no damage to the motor.

diamonddave · Feb 7, 2010

AKSNOWRIDER said:
Still waiting for ya to come do mine dave....:face-icon-small-hap

I think we can work something out. Instead of Round trip 1st class tickets a set of those bada$$ ruuning boards for me coming up and....take care of stuff.

Win win!

deepdiver · Feb 7, 2010

diamonddave said:
Sled has a stumble/dead spot/lean bog on initial throttle but only for the first minute maybe 90 seconds after taking off. Engine temp doesn't seem to matter (90'-120'F) It will do this all the time regardless ieven f you ride for a while and shut it off and immediately fire it up and take off. Bogg.

Not real worried about it yet as it's too early for me to really worry about it and I think sled may need more time. Plus I am installing a PCV hopefully next week.

As far as the testing goes, I verified that at exactly 10 minutes of engine idle, my snap-on laser temp gun reads 141' F at the voltage regulator with an engine coolant temp of 129'F. It seemed to be a steady increase in temp from the get go 49'F on a 50'F ambient air temp. Each of my VR to ECM wires were 3 phase 12 volts.

With my meter hooked up positive lead to 12 volts positive at the battery and my negative lead hooked up to the electronics plate, I have anywhere from 0.8-1.0 volts. A very slight wiggle and full battery voltage (12.7-14.0 volts) regardless on whether engine is running or not.

So this is telling me that at least on my sled, any slight movement of the sled and the elctronics plate is a ground.

Testing to be continued....

The stumble on take off after the sled has been shut off...seems to be an added value from the Jan 2010 map. I have it along with a few others> iT started the day after the update.

Also I use this new gadget at work and it is a great tool! http://www.lascarelectronics.com/main/index.php?location=us&PHPSESSID=0aje47rs1h5qu5roaa4db2jst7 it is a USB temp/humidity probe..you start it with your PC in the USB port then can leave it wherever you choose and plug it back in to the PC later and it charts and graphs your data. Under 100 dollars.

diamonddave · Feb 7, 2010

deepdiver said:
The stumble on take off after the sled has been shut off...seems to be an added value from the Jan 2010 map. I have it along with a few others> iT started the day after the update.

Also I use this new gadget at work and it is a great tool! http://www.lascarelectronics.com/main/index.php?location=us&PHPSESSID=0aje47rs1h5qu5roaa4db2jst7 it is a USB temp/humidity probe..you start it with your PC in the USB port then can leave it wherever you choose and plug it back in to the PC later and it charts and graphs your data. Under 100 dollars.

I don't have the January 2010 map yet, just the 1st map with the 2010 piston update; whichever map we want to call that. Yesterday, the stumble/pop/bogg/lean spot anytime you give it throttle happened every time after restart and is practically not ridable. Coolant temp warmed up to 120'F before I took off. I didn't get to ride long as I had other issues yesterday. After it clears up, it runs spot on.

akrevrider · Feb 8, 2010

ECU grounding point corroded..

I pulled my ECU to check for any signs of overheating/blistering on the back side. Everything on the ECU (yellow injectors) looked good & no signs of overheating/spikes etc.

What I did find is the back mounting point (non-nylock nut & lockwasher on it) is also a pass through ground from the lower metal plate that is grounded to the main wiring harness. It was corroded heavy and was probably not making good contact.

I cleaned it up and will be reinstalling it with star washers and electric grease to improve the contact point.

akrevrider

protecting the ECU?

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