850 gone down already??

[JJ_0909]

Jj... I am sure you won’t believe me. We(our riding crew) have seen the good bad and ugly of the honing. Dans hg7 has shown spectacular results for us.

We haven’t been best buds in the past, so if you want more info, pm me and we can discuss it. I can give you our experiences. We were on the front end of the ugly.

I prefaced my comment with specifically noting I am just being a skeptic because I think its healthy.

We'd be dumb to take my suspension nerdery as truth in the engine world, was more using my analogy to just say "we used to think perfectly polished was the goal in suspension, now we don't"

I'm sure Indy's work is great. He couldn't offer a warranty like he does if it wasn't. Plus, I hear awesome things about his clutching.

I'm just saying sometimes its easy to panic when we don't have enough information. I'm king at this! Trying to learn... So in this case, I'm trying to say ' Hmmm, interesting post, interesting info, now what does all this really *mean*"? And then I check in with my gut and it says "It means we need more information".

Thanks for chiming in with some info btw!~

 

[Jaynelson]

Hey Dan thanks for chiming in ....question for you

I saw earlier you posted (and have for years) ....that you prefer OEM Polaris pistons over any aftermarket pistons available. The manufacturer has more money for R&D, and hence a better product in the piston. The logic seems sound, and experience over the year seems to agree with that.

...that said. WHY would this logic not transfer to the cylinders? Simply too time consuming to get the finish as you describe? It seems strange that some internal engine components would be built to high standards, and others not.

 

[Tack_836]

Honest questions. So how about the piston coating peeling off? I know some are saying dont worry they all come off but then why even put it on? Is it only meant for protection on the initial startup? If it is meant for anything other than the initial startup then that much peeled off from pulling it into the garage seems like a problem.

 

[fc8464]

One thing is certain, time will tell!

 

[sno*jet]

very good reading here. Im a little bit with JJ tho, not fully but a little.. the vids are starting to roll in of great sounding 850s tearing it up. the 600 small blocks, carb or efi ran much much longer than any of their 8s. I've rented plenty with 5000+ OG miles that were stored outside and cold started all season. maybe they were honed in a different factory than the 8s?

 

[boondocker97]

Not an engine builder. Am a suspension nerd. It is well established overly smooth stanctions (friction) create more stiction than something with a rougher anodization. In fact, you can send your moto stuff to a number of tuners, such as Kreft, to have them put a microscopic crosshatch into the material for smoother performance. It 100% works. Longer seal life. Better performance. More lubrication of important parts (bushings/seals).

We are all under this assumption that somehow Dan's honing is the best. Based on what? Proven by who? Not saying he's wrong, I'm just saying its silly for everyone to jump on board without some bit of skepticism around this idea.

I don't have enough knowledge to be considered a nerd in either engines or suspension, but do enough with them and have spent a lot of time reading articles and other's findings to have some knowledge about them. The thing with suspension and stiction is that you usually have some type of polymer on metal contact that is wiping the metal clean of the oil film very effectively. Adding some micro grooves and scratches gives a place for the oil to hide and improves the lubrication. I agree with that. Go too much and those scratches would start becoming abrasive and eating the seals. The challenge is finding the balance between having just enough to be beneficial and not cross over to being destructive.

The thing about the cylinder coatings we have today is that they are naturally porous and don't "need" to be roughed up to hold oil. And they are so hard that they don't wear much compared to a piston and ring unless abrasives are introduced. I've read more about cylinder collapse and plating coming off being a failure point in recent years than cylinder wear. So if you have too many sharp/torn up (at a small level) cutting edges left in your cylinder without having them flattened off, then they are going to protrude through the oil film and absolutely act as an abrasive for the passing piston and rings. And we are already dealing with thinner oils than we used to on these sled engines to more easily flow into the tight places it needs to be.

I'm not sure what kind of control the plating companies have on the level of porosity in the cylinder coatings, but if they can control it well enough then theoretically it should be possible to get it perfect for the amount of lubrication needing to be held on the cylinder wall. If that point is reached a hone finish that is equally as smooth as the porosity level would be ideal. I feel like that is maybe the level of perfection of what Dan is chasing after. Is it absolutely necessary for every condition - no, but maybe it is for some.

As a general side note, working in an engineering field myself I know that there is no balance of design perfection, time, and budget that can make everyone happy when developing something. "Good, cheap, or fast: pick two" is unfortunately all too true of a phrase. Engineers pull for the good, budgeters pull for the cheap, and schedulers/marketers pull for fast. Hopefully in this case for the new 850 owners the cheap and fast didn't come out too far ahead.

 

[TRS]

As an analyst I find all of this a bit comical. Not trying to take anything away from Dan's extensive experience, but there are a few things to take into account here....

Dan doesn't seem too positive on any modern Polaris motor. This is interesting because I know of only a handful of blown up 800HO motors, and those were high mileage boosted motors. I know hundreds of 800 HO motors that, when well mantained, have been awesome year over year. ...

I have gone through a truck load of engines since 2008. Polaris put enough engines in my 2008 that they gave me an ‘09. Told me what they wanted me to run for oil and I lost 4 more engines. It was down enough that I rode the kids 550 fanners a lot. Same issues through 2010.

2011 I SC a Pro. Had multiple engine problems there also. Lost it in an avalanche, I survived.

SC a 2012 and had issue after issue and finally had Dan build me a long rod. Best investment to date.

SC a ‘15 and had a couple engines replaced. Rode the snot out of my long rod and my Indy Dan honed turbo sled.????

SC a ‘17, didn’t get to ride that winter due to neck surgery.

SC an ‘18 and by the time I put it away last spring it was on its 4th engine. It was at the dealer for nearly 6 weeks last winter waiting on warranty engines. It had 2446 miles on it when I put it away. Glad I had multiple sleds to ride.
My ridding buddy is on his second engine.

SC an 850, if we get snow, wonder how many engines this 61 year old will go through this year? I’m in Dans court on this one. I have made a career out of destroying 800’s in the past is the 850 next?

I rode the 800 engines stock, no cans, pipes, heads, fuel controllers, I needed warranty.
My sleds are highly maintained and keeped in a heated shop.

I may ride hard and don’t let off the throttle often, but come on, Polaris doesn’t have longevity issues?

 

[JJ_0909]

I have gone through a truck load of engines since 2008. Polaris put enough engines in my 2008 that they gave me an ‘09. Told me what they wanted me to run for oil and I lost 4 more engines. It was down enough that I rode the kids 550 fanners a lot. Same issues through 2010.

2011 I SC a Pro. Had multiple engine problems there also. Lost it in an avalanche, I survived.

SC a 2012 and had issue after issue and finally had Dan build me a long rod. Best investment to date.

SC a ‘15 and had a couple engines replaced. Rode the snot out of my long rod and my Indy Dan honed turbo sled.��������

SC a ‘17, didn’t get to ride that winter due to neck surgery.

SC an ‘18 and by the time I put it away last spring it was on its 4th engine. It was at the dealer for nearly 6 weeks last winter waiting on warranty engines. It had 2446 miles on it when I put it away. Glad I had multiple sleds to ride.
My ridding buddy is on his second engine.

SC an 850, if we get snow, wonder how many engines this 61 year old will go through this year�� I’m in Dans court on this one. I have made a career out of destroying 800’s in the past is the 850 next?

I rode the 800 engines stock, no cans, pipes, heads, fuel controllers, I needed warranty.
My sleds are highly maintained and keeped in a heated shop.

I may ride hard and don’t let off the throttle often, but come on, Polaris doesn’t have longevity issues?

First, if you read what I wrote you'd see I said from late pros on forward. I think everyone knows they had issues in the late 2000s.

Second, you are clearly harder than most on sleds. Polaris would 100% be out of the sled business otherwise. If everyone had the warranty rate you did, they'd be belly up!

Third, I'm more interested in larger samples - EG, the whole, than I am a few anecdotal accounts. I'm not trying to discount *you* having issues with the motor, that's clear. I'm just trying to suggest you change your lens.

If I had the problems you did, there is no way I'd ride a first year motor, and whatever I rode, I'd probably have built from the ground up by someone you trust to keep me on snow.

For most of us though, this is not the case.

Base assumptions off a big sample, not anecdotal one off accounts (hence why I'm bringing Polaris's publicly available financials into this). That's just how my brain operates.

 

[shattuck]

I have gone through a truck load of engines since 2008. Polaris put enough engines in my 2008 that they gave me an ‘09. Told me what they wanted me to run for oil and I lost 4 more engines. It was down enough that I rode the kids 550 fanners a lot. Same issues through 2010.

2011 I SC a Pro. Had multiple engine problems there also. Lost it in an avalanche, I survived.

SC a 2012 and had issue after issue and finally had Dan build me a long rod. Best investment to date.

SC a ‘15 and had a couple engines replaced. Rode the snot out of my long rod and my Indy Dan honed turbo sled.????

SC a ‘17, didn’t get to ride that winter due to neck surgery.

SC an ‘18 and by the time I put it away last spring it was on its 4th engine. It was at the dealer for nearly 6 weeks last winter waiting on warranty engines. It had 2446 miles on it when I put it away. Glad I had multiple sleds to ride.
My ridding buddy is on his second engine.

SC an 850, if we get snow, wonder how many engines this 61 year old will go through this year? I’m in Dans court on this one. I have made a career out of destroying 800’s in the past is the 850 next?

I rode the 800 engines stock, no cans, pipes, heads, fuel controllers, I needed warranty.
My sleds are highly maintained and keeped in a heated shop.

I may ride hard and don’t let off the throttle often, but come on, Polaris doesn’t have longevity issues?

That is amazing I guess we don’t have to wonder why Polaris keeps having engine trouble it’s because people buy them anyway. It’s always about the dollars if Polaris can save money by making a less reliable motor cheaper and their sales don’t take enough of a hit to justify the cost of building a better motor this is what we’ll get.

 

[ac4life]

That is amazing I guess we don’t have to wonder why Polaris keeps having engine trouble it’s because people buy them anyway.

I was thinking the same thing ?. Neighbor of mine has also been through a 'truck load' of engines but has still been 100% loyal to buying new polaris' .

 

[Detox]

Dang, now I'm scared to buy a new sled.

 

[jim]

When you have more surface contact area with a smoother finish, you have more friction. This is true with anything not just engines. More surface contact = more friction.
One could make the case that the finer the honing finish, the more surface contact with the piston ring. Which brings up another point, the ring is really the main and only component that is doing any work. When an engine fails, it is due to the oil barrier failing and the ring having metal to metal contact (no oil) , friction sky rockets and galling occurs in very short order.

As someone who has studied material science and applies it in the real world, surface finish is dependent on the application. An oil film does not require "cavities" to remain suspended and function properly. As a matter of fact, a very low drag plate to plate scenario is two polished surfaces with a very thin oil film they glide on...but the oil must be the correct viscosity so that it doesn't just squirt out. That is what breaking in with the pistons and cylinder is all about... matching things up for a low drag situation and a thin oil film. A good honing process can avoid the metal wear associated with doing this. Also, if you look at a microscopic surface, you have peaks and valleys. If the peaks and valleys are too large, the oil can't stop them from colliding with each other. And when they collide, the metal is hard worked, sheared and torn...which causes more work hardening (aluminum), more shearing and eventually material transfer (seize). This is obviously bad. And Dan is not saying you must have a perfect mirror finish...he is saying you need to have the right finish. Microscopically, it will still have the peaks and valleys which are the correct size for the viscosity of the oil.

I don't get why the finer finish honing is so controversial. Anyone ever tear down a great running motor and look at the cylinder finish? Polished. And pistons? Polished. Rings? Polished.

 

[Jaynelson]

That is amazing I guess we don’t have to wonder why Polaris keeps having engine trouble it’s because people buy them anyway. It’s always about the dollars if Polaris can save money by making a less reliable motor cheaper and their sales don’t take enough of a hit to justify the cost of building a better motor this is what we’ll get.

To be fair....that is a wild example. Since 2016, our store has done 2-3 Axys motors out of hundreds we’ve sold. Each was a different failure. That is in the middle of BC deep snow, big mountains. Believe me, don’t believe me, whatever...that’s the truth.

Over those hundreds, I would assume there is a wide spectrum of riding styles and levels of maintenance. So knowing that....someone doing in 4 Axys motors in one season is crazy. I trust that it happened, but also that there HAS to be something specifically different about his situation to kill that many.

 

[live2beel]

I have gone through a truck load of engines since 2008. Polaris put enough engines in my 2008 that they gave me an ‘09. Told me what they wanted me to run for oil and I lost 4 more engines. It was down enough that I rode the kids 550 fanners a lot. Same issues through 2010.

2011 I SC a Pro. Had multiple engine problems there also. Lost it in an avalanche, I survived.

SC a 2012 and had issue after issue and finally had Dan build me a long rod. Best investment to date.

SC a ‘15 and had a couple engines replaced. Rode the snot out of my long rod and my Indy Dan honed turbo sled.????

SC a ‘17, didn’t get to ride that winter due to neck surgery.

SC an ‘18 and by the time I put it away last spring it was on its 4th engine. It was at the dealer for nearly 6 weeks last winter waiting on warranty engines. It had 2446 miles on it when I put it away. Glad I had multiple sleds to ride.
My ridding buddy is on his second engine.

SC an 850, if we get snow, wonder how many engines this 61 year old will go through this year? I’m in Dans court on this one. I have made a career out of destroying 800’s in the past is the 850 next?

I rode the 800 engines stock, no cans, pipes, heads, fuel controllers, I needed warranty.
My sleds are highly maintained and keeped in a heated shop.

I may ride hard and don’t let off the throttle often, but come on, Polaris doesn’t have longevity issues?

This is just a thought, I think it’s time to try a different brand?

 

[Motorbreath_]

That is amazing I guess we don’t have to wonder why Polaris keeps having engine trouble it’s because people buy them anyway. It’s always about the dollars if Polaris can save money by making a less reliable motor cheaper and their sales don’t take enough of a hit to justify the cost of building a better motor this is what we’ll get.

Yup, that's dedication. I fouled a few spark plugs and changed brands lol

 

[willjogervais]

So knowing that....someone doing in 4 Axys motors in one season is crazy. I trust that it happened, but also that there HAS to be something specifically different about his situation to kill that many.

Im not trying to come off as an ass, and I don't doubt that it happened. Im just trying to wrap my head around this. How does someone wreck that many motors consistently year after year. What are you doing to your motor's that 99.9% of riders aren't? How many miles a season? There has to be a reason for it, every motor, every year and blowing up multiple times? As a polaris rider, I can safely say I wouldn't be anymore after just a fraction of those problems on just one of your sleds. I cant wait to beat the crap out of my 850 and if it goes down, so be it. Hello new alpha maybe? With that said, I haven't had a polaris sled blow up since my 900 so my experience is far different from yours. Honestly, I'm not even concerned about the new one until we get some real use on them.

 

[Solarguy]

To be fair....that is a wild example. Since 2016, our store has done 2-3 Axys motors out of hundreds we’ve sold. Each was a different failure. That is in the middle of BC deep snow, big mountains. Believe me, don’t believe me, whatever...that’s the truth.

Over those hundreds, I would assume there is a wide spectrum of riding styles and levels of maintenance. So knowing that....someone doing in 4 Axys motors in one season is crazy. I trust that it happened, but also that there HAS to be something specifically different about his situation to kill that many.

My experience riding with a strong group of riders in NW Montana and BC, I have seen very view failures for the thousands of hours of hard mountain riding in our group of a dozen or so all on Polaris. Have seen a couple of engine failures but this is over a few year span. The AXYS engines have been very dependable. Time will tell on the 850. TRS is hard on engines and is obviously harder on them than the rest of us mountain riders.

 

[JJ_0909]

TRS is hard on engines and is obviously harder on them anyone else in the whole wide world.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Jaynelson]

TRS is hard on engines and is obviously harder on them than the rest of us mountain riders.

He is also a really smart guy....so I would like to hear his thoughts on what he does that is unique, and THAT hard on motors.

Mileage alone....not sure about that. We have high mileage guys, we have 0 maintenance guys, we have no warm up guys, we have stored outside under a tree guys, you name it....turbos, pipes, stage kits, yada yada yada. Still only 2-3 (can't decide if I should count the 3rd one) motors total of every Axys we sold ever.

 

[phatty]

Lot of fear mongering going on in here.

IndyDan knows his stuff and has a proven track record. We should listen, but gather a whole bunch more information than his 1 sled that didn't even fail, but wasn't up to his hand built standards.

The only failure I know of personally on the 850 was not top end related. He didn't make it 5 miles from the trailer. Seems a little premature to blame honing when it has not even accounted for 1 proven failure yet (if you have a top end failure on an 850 speak up, we all want info and data on it. i don't want to hear about some one you know... it has to be YOU and you gotta have proof).

Polaris offered a 4 year warranty on this bad boy. Its a freaking riot to ride. So go ride the piss out of it for 4 years and let polaris take care of it. Dont be scared to squeeze that throttle WFO. I know I have been and its been a 100 miles of smile making. Oh and for the record just shy of 10k sold in the 850 line.