J
Any sense in changing them on a turbo application? I have a set of yellows but havent put them in.
who here has messed with tuning VES springs?
- Thread starter Lorduss
- Start date
Good question. I have the grn/wht in my BD turbo also. Haven't tested a spring change. It runs very well. The turbo may benefit from eliminating the EVS and activating with EV springs only. I'll play with this. Thanks, has me thinking.
G
Thanx for the input TRS and others.
I'm ready to try eliminating the solenoid and have an idea of how to make spring changes easy in field to do all the seat of the pants stuff. I would just like to be more prepared with info so I don't over compensate at the wrong rpm with the boony box.
I hooked up a simple LED to observe the "signal" to open and my sled on the stand in the shop is consistent at 75-7600ish. I feel, seat of the pants, that the valve does open here with the green springs. I "think" I felt the stock orange opened here sometimes and other times it felt like they wouldn't reopen til 7900. Usually on a low pressure day in a hot pipe-engine scenario.
But,,, I don't know.
So. if I do the math, 2 lbs (green to orange) "feels" about 300 rpm difference in the worst case scenario. My notes from the past (Doos) confirm this but my notes also say a 5 lb start should take me to 6700 ish rpm open. Trouble is, apples to orange comparison because of how Doo takes it's pressure to feed the bellows as well as the difference in surface area between the two.
. I,m a kid just learnin again. Before I go through all the hoops of making it adjustable to a significantly lower rpm of opening, I'd like to know if it is even possible with Poo's valve system.
If I use math, and this is using the assumption that the solenoid is not the end all to valve opening. I would need to get down to 1 lb or less of spring preload to get to 6700 rpm. In my mind that will create other issues lol.
But,,, maybe the solenoid is the end all to valve opening and just do the block off and tune lol.
Brycter (and anyone that attempted to change this with a Vipec). I hope you will answer 2 questions. Is the signal from the ECU as simple as I think it is? On or off, with the ECU timing the rpm.
And, because you talked about 6000 rpm signal and one poster mentioned trying down to 5000, can this be done using the stock orange springs? Was it as simple as changing the signal or did it take a spring change?
Okay, it was thre questions lol.
I'm ready to try eliminating the solenoid and have an idea of how to make spring changes easy in field to do all the seat of the pants stuff. I would just like to be more prepared with info so I don't over compensate at the wrong rpm with the boony box.
I hooked up a simple LED to observe the "signal" to open and my sled on the stand in the shop is consistent at 75-7600ish. I feel, seat of the pants, that the valve does open here with the green springs. I "think" I felt the stock orange opened here sometimes and other times it felt like they wouldn't reopen til 7900. Usually on a low pressure day in a hot pipe-engine scenario.
But,,, I don't know.
So. if I do the math, 2 lbs (green to orange) "feels" about 300 rpm difference in the worst case scenario. My notes from the past (Doos) confirm this but my notes also say a 5 lb start should take me to 6700 ish rpm open. Trouble is, apples to orange comparison because of how Doo takes it's pressure to feed the bellows as well as the difference in surface area between the two.
. I,m a kid just learnin again. Before I go through all the hoops of making it adjustable to a significantly lower rpm of opening, I'd like to know if it is even possible with Poo's valve system.
If I use math, and this is using the assumption that the solenoid is not the end all to valve opening. I would need to get down to 1 lb or less of spring preload to get to 6700 rpm. In my mind that will create other issues lol.
But,,, maybe the solenoid is the end all to valve opening and just do the block off and tune lol.
Brycter (and anyone that attempted to change this with a Vipec). I hope you will answer 2 questions. Is the signal from the ECU as simple as I think it is? On or off, with the ECU timing the rpm.
And, because you talked about 6000 rpm signal and one poster mentioned trying down to 5000, can this be done using the stock orange springs? Was it as simple as changing the signal or did it take a spring change?
Okay, it was thre questions lol.
A thought on smaller adjustments than just spring changes, might be helpful. My 2000 440 xc sp had an adjustment built into the cap so you could turn a notch at a time and add preload to the spring in small increments. Maybe helpful with tuning?
Last edited:
It was me that said i am opening the exhaust valve at 5000 rpm,s , this is on a 870 big bore , ported cylinders / case and piped , yes it was as simple as changing the signal.
My problem is , if i hold the rpm,s at 6800-7000 i get a exhaust valve chatter , i went from the stock orange spring to the pink spring , this stopped the chattering , but it returned on my last spring ( Mar./ April ) ride , it was a hot spring day , i did not data log it , but i think my pipe temp. got high and this is what caused the valve to chatter.
I have programed a fuel correction and timing correction map to make shore the pipe temp. does not go above 570 C .
I have been PMing with TRS on this , trying to understand WHY this chatter is only happen at 6800-7000 rpm,s , the valve open good at 5000 if you increase rpm,s slowly everything is OK until hitting 6800 then the chattering starts until the rpm,s get above 7000 then they stay open again , I know i can go to a lighter spring and this should stop this , but i am trying to understand WHY this is only happen at this rpm ( 6800-7000) is my timing off at the range ???
Its great to have the resources of the guys on here with lots of tuning experience.
G
Hey Gunner. That's good info. Thanx.
This system has a little hole going into another hole, through a hole. if I remember right. Seems to me like the valve can get in the way if it doesn't slam open so exh. pressure can take over.
So you open from the pressure, bleeds off a bit of pressure in the bellows for whatever reason (lot of holes or maybe spring pressure too high, or maybe exhaust pressure too low) and it settles to closed, then holes line up and opens again, then settles closed and so on.
I think initially the pressure is from combustion chamber and later after open it becomes exhaust pressure (cause of the tiny hole in the barrel). Maybe the hole size after the valve in relation to exhaust port pressure is the limiting factor at a certain point, but I don`t know. At a certain point you have to get too light in spring pressure to return a dirty valve consistently, I think.
The RAVE system is much simpler and responds well and consistently to spring changes. Wonder if it is patented and this is why Poo has what it has. You would have to plug one hole and drill another to make the Poo system closer to the same.
It`s why I am hesitant to simply plug the valve vents and go.
I have a few more questions Gunner lol. You changed the signal to 5000 but how do you know when the actual valve is opening? Maybe stock spring starts at 6800 7000 and pink ones at 6500-6700. Maybe the small hole (compared to Doo) after the valve will not allow enough exh. pressure to maintain the large bellow with pressure below a certain rpm? Maybe that is the balance (spring pressure to exh. pressure) that causes both springs at a certain point to give you a chatter. Maybe setting the signal to 5000 is the same as plugging the vents because at a certain point spring pressure has to be in control.
Maybe the purpose-design behind the solenoid and critical hole sizes is to allow enough pressure to build high enough that when ECU signals the solenoid to open it will slam open and the heavy spring is picked to slam it closed when Exh. pressure drops. This would give the most consistent valve open time for the ECU to be tuned around without the use of mechanical valves.
That would be good to know. My feeling is the change to green for me helped the most because it was less return pressure on the valve when exhaust pressure dropped a bit not so much because of a change in the timing of the opening.
I'm not ready to drill or plug any holes yet but I wonder if there will be any other method to get a consistent and tunable lower rpm valve opening?
What has your Vipec tuner suggested? Have they been any help?
Mr Biltit. The covers from your 440? Do you think they would fit the 800 valves? Save me some building if they did.
This system has a little hole going into another hole, through a hole. if I remember right. Seems to me like the valve can get in the way if it doesn't slam open so exh. pressure can take over.
So you open from the pressure, bleeds off a bit of pressure in the bellows for whatever reason (lot of holes or maybe spring pressure too high, or maybe exhaust pressure too low) and it settles to closed, then holes line up and opens again, then settles closed and so on.
I think initially the pressure is from combustion chamber and later after open it becomes exhaust pressure (cause of the tiny hole in the barrel). Maybe the hole size after the valve in relation to exhaust port pressure is the limiting factor at a certain point, but I don`t know. At a certain point you have to get too light in spring pressure to return a dirty valve consistently, I think.
The RAVE system is much simpler and responds well and consistently to spring changes. Wonder if it is patented and this is why Poo has what it has. You would have to plug one hole and drill another to make the Poo system closer to the same.
It`s why I am hesitant to simply plug the valve vents and go.
I have a few more questions Gunner lol. You changed the signal to 5000 but how do you know when the actual valve is opening? Maybe stock spring starts at 6800 7000 and pink ones at 6500-6700. Maybe the small hole (compared to Doo) after the valve will not allow enough exh. pressure to maintain the large bellow with pressure below a certain rpm? Maybe that is the balance (spring pressure to exh. pressure) that causes both springs at a certain point to give you a chatter. Maybe setting the signal to 5000 is the same as plugging the vents because at a certain point spring pressure has to be in control.
Maybe the purpose-design behind the solenoid and critical hole sizes is to allow enough pressure to build high enough that when ECU signals the solenoid to open it will slam open and the heavy spring is picked to slam it closed when Exh. pressure drops. This would give the most consistent valve open time for the ECU to be tuned around without the use of mechanical valves.
That would be good to know. My feeling is the change to green for me helped the most because it was less return pressure on the valve when exhaust pressure dropped a bit not so much because of a change in the timing of the opening.
I'm not ready to drill or plug any holes yet but I wonder if there will be any other method to get a consistent and tunable lower rpm valve opening?
What has your Vipec tuner suggested? Have they been any help?
Mr Biltit. The covers from your 440? Do you think they would fit the 800 valves? Save me some building if they did.
Geo- I can take a look tonight and let you know. I will get a few pics too.
Coincidently, that 440 also had solenoids operating the exhaust valves.
Coincidently, that 440 also had solenoids operating the exhaust valves.
I have both here, I know the main mounting bolt spacing is different as the race style is a narrow mount and square to the cylinder as opposed to the Production engines and the CFI's which are diagonally mounted. I'll do some Recon while the bird is in the oven.
Geo, good news! the actual cap / Diaphragm retainer is interchangeable! See photos and narrative
The race style adjustable spring perch has 8 detents and a thread pitch of 1/16", so about 0.0078125" of adjustment per detent.
To retain the manual EV indicator the blue cap needs a hole drilled in the center of about 0.3" (I'd likely just go to 5/16" for simplicity) for the indicator to poke thru when full open. Otherwise change to the normal race nut on the diaphragm which has a flat top instead of the long protruding point.
Keep us in informed of your R&D
Geo, good news! the actual cap / Diaphragm retainer is interchangeable! See photos and narrative
The race style adjustable spring perch has 8 detents and a thread pitch of 1/16", so about 0.0078125" of adjustment per detent.
To retain the manual EV indicator the blue cap needs a hole drilled in the center of about 0.3" (I'd likely just go to 5/16" for simplicity) for the indicator to poke thru when full open. Otherwise change to the normal race nut on the diaphragm which has a flat top instead of the long protruding point.
Keep us in informed of your R&D
Last edited:
Hey Gunner. That's good info. Thanx.
This system has a little hole going into another hole, through a hole. if I remember right. Seems to me like the valve can get in the way if it doesn't slam open so exh. pressure can take over.
So you open from the pressure, bleeds off a bit of pressure in the bellows for whatever reason (lot of holes or maybe spring pressure too high, or maybe exhaust pressure too low) and it settles to closed, then holes line up and opens again, then settles closed and so on.
I think initially the pressure is from combustion chamber and later after open it becomes exhaust pressure (cause of the tiny hole in the barrel). Maybe the hole size after the valve in relation to exhaust port pressure is the limiting factor at a certain point, but I don`t know. At a certain point you have to get too light in spring pressure to return a dirty valve consistently, I think.
The RAVE system is much simpler and responds well and consistently to spring changes. Wonder if it is patented and this is why Poo has what it has. You would have to plug one hole and drill another to make the Poo system closer to the same.
It`s why I am hesitant to simply plug the valve vents and go.
I have a few more questions Gunner lol. You changed the signal to 5000 but how do you know when the actual valve is opening?
[B]I tuned the engine first with the exhaust valve opening at 7000RPM,s , then started lowing the opening point by 500 RPM,s , adding fuel as the AFR would lean out from having the valve opening sooner ,also clutching had to be adjusted to deal with the increase in mid range torque , I did this procedure until i got to 5000 RPM,s for a valve opening , the engagement is set at 3600 RPM,s.
Having the exhaust valve open sooner really made the sled pull hard in the mid range.
[/B]
Maybe stock spring starts at 6800 7000 and pink ones at 6500-6700. Maybe the small hole (compared to Doo) after the valve will not allow enough exh. pressure to maintain the large bellow with pressure below a certain rpm? Maybe that is the balance (spring pressure to exh. pressure) that causes both springs at a certain point to give you a chatter. Maybe setting the signal to 5000 is the same as plugging the vents because at a certain point spring pressure has to be in control.
Maybe the purpose-design behind the solenoid and critical hole sizes is to allow enough pressure to build high enough that when ECU signals the solenoid to open it will slam open and the heavy spring is picked to slam it closed when Exh. pressure drops. This would give the most consistent valve open time for the ECU to be tuned around without the use of mechanical valves.
That would be good to know. My feeling is the change to green for me helped the most because it was less return pressure on the valve when exhaust pressure dropped a bit not so much because of a change in the timing of the opening.
I'm not ready to drill or plug any holes yet but I wonder if there will be any other method to get a consistent and tunable lower rpm valve opening?
What has your Vipec tuner suggested? Have they been any help?
I can not get a hold of my ViPec distributor here in Canada, Brycter on here has been helping me. The Big Bore kit builder has not seen this problem with there two BB sleds as they are running the stock ECU with a piggy back fuel controller , we compare clutching set up and there is a big gain in running the ViPec.
Mr Biltit. The covers from your 440? Do you think they would fit the 800 valves? Save me some building if they did.
Can you still get these covers , what sled are they from Year , make , model ???
Last edited:
G
Okay... I'll let you in on another secret:
http://www.startinglineproducts.com/catalog.cfm?pageID=detail&catalogID=3&catID=18&productID=172
gunner's problem is likely a combination of this and deto as compression is bleeding off around the exhaust valves causing the chatter - especially if noticeable more when coming off the mountain at the end of the day. And more likely if there are some nice miles on the sled. He mentioned a timing and fuel map change - that alone could help immensely.
Have FUN!
G MAN
Last edited:
Here are the part numbers needed to make one complete cover (one of each needed).
3086120 Cover, Diaphragm $ 24.99
3086126 O-ring $ 3.74
3085744 Adjuster $ 15.99
These were used on the majority (440cc's to 800cc's) of EV engines from 1999 until 2003.
They are still shown on the Online Fiche as available, although I can not confirm or deny that, as I have a bunch of old engines to borrow them from, if proven to be worthwhile.
Last edited:
OK , are you saying it would help if i plugged these decompression holes ( any instruction / picture on how to do this, my motor is still apart ) , it was doing this chattering at home in the fields if i held the rpm,s between 6800-7000 , installing the pink spring helped .
The timing ( pulling ) and fuel ( adding ) correction maps are to keep the exhaust temp in check
I have attack same picture of the passage holes in the cylinder , the offset hole closest to the top of the exhaust port goes to the underside of exhaust valve bellows , The hole that is centered and further away from the exhaust port ( more toward the top of the cylinder ) is the decompression hole, this hole travels thought the cylinder , then thought the hole in the exhaust valve ( valve in the closed position ) and then thought a hole in the top of the exhaust port .
So i take it that this hole would have to be plugged between the cylinder and the exhaust valve ! , HOW DO YOU DO THIS ?? ( TRS answered this for me )
What would the benefit be for me doing this , i understand the down side in hard cold starting
Last edited:
My dealer had to order in the green/white springs. $18/ea (CAD) yikes!
G
Gman086. I don't know about that secret lol. There might be a benefit to plugging (I decided not to) but I have a hard time believing my valves were ever tight enough to seal anything from there. And if they did at one time, where did that pressure they sealed go way back then.
Didn't feed the bellows or plugging would stop them from working. I think, anyway.
Thanx for the input though. More data equals easier. Seems like you have played with this. Care to share some results on the CFI2?
Gunner, appreciate your input too. Funny you mention Canada and these types of things. I tried twice in the last couple of summers to buy a vipec up here but had trouble as you, of no answers to questions lol. Too picky I guess.
A thought. I was never able to allow a 5000 rpm opening on smaller bore mod engines. Lost to much power. The lowest I ever tried was 6200 ish and even on high pressure spring days there was a slight hesitation created.
If the valves are opening there and the sled still pulls it, maybe you can just wire the valves open full time. They are only there to makes more power at lower-mid rpm but you are very close to engagement already.
LH thanx I'll PM you in a min.
I'm gonna do an experiment when I get the pieces and post back later. Just cause it has been in my mind for a couple of years and shouldn't take too much.
First mount some old adj. caps, plug the vents and start with the orange springs in the shop. Then install a pop out on the mag side and rig up a permanent battery operated micro switch of the bottom 2 bolts with a light mounted to the dash to tell me when they are fully open.
Then I'll set it up in the shop to open as per my ECU stock of 75 7600 and go ridin'. We'll see if valves hang closed anywhere and theoretically will be able to pop in green ones right in the field and observe them.
Couple of "hopefully's"; I only need fueling adjustments. There is no other hidden bottle necks in pressure available. I can get it to 6700ish and return to too-higha-compressiondish" lol.
Might be a waste of time but my questions will be answered just in time for the intro of the mechanically controlled Axys RMK lol.
Didn't feed the bellows or plugging would stop them from working. I think, anyway.
Thanx for the input though. More data equals easier. Seems like you have played with this. Care to share some results on the CFI2?
Gunner, appreciate your input too. Funny you mention Canada and these types of things. I tried twice in the last couple of summers to buy a vipec up here but had trouble as you, of no answers to questions lol. Too picky I guess.
A thought. I was never able to allow a 5000 rpm opening on smaller bore mod engines. Lost to much power. The lowest I ever tried was 6200 ish and even on high pressure spring days there was a slight hesitation created.
If the valves are opening there and the sled still pulls it, maybe you can just wire the valves open full time. They are only there to makes more power at lower-mid rpm but you are very close to engagement already.
LH thanx I'll PM you in a min.
I'm gonna do an experiment when I get the pieces and post back later. Just cause it has been in my mind for a couple of years and shouldn't take too much.
First mount some old adj. caps, plug the vents and start with the orange springs in the shop. Then install a pop out on the mag side and rig up a permanent battery operated micro switch of the bottom 2 bolts with a light mounted to the dash to tell me when they are fully open.
Then I'll set it up in the shop to open as per my ECU stock of 75 7600 and go ridin'. We'll see if valves hang closed anywhere and theoretically will be able to pop in green ones right in the field and observe them.
Couple of "hopefully's"; I only need fueling adjustments. There is no other hidden bottle necks in pressure available. I can get it to 6700ish and return to too-higha-compressiondish" lol.
Might be a waste of time but my questions will be answered just in time for the intro of the mechanically controlled Axys RMK lol.
Very interesting read gents. Keep it coming! 
True ECU control of the EV position is the way of the future for sure but some of us riding old clunkers need to make the best of them! LOL
True ECU control of the EV position is the way of the future for sure but some of us riding old clunkers need to make the best of them! LOL
Geo,
If you plug them, using the stock ECU on pump premium noneth. You will continually Det at 6500-6700rpm below 8700'. I have not been able to pass this threshold to date with a stock sled and fueling.
Edit: you can stick a short piece of a straw through the hole in the cap, over the nut, to watch movement.
If you plug them, using the stock ECU on pump premium noneth. You will continually Det at 6500-6700rpm below 8700'. I have not been able to pass this threshold to date with a stock sled and fueling.
Edit: you can stick a short piece of a straw through the hole in the cap, over the nut, to watch movement.
Last edited:
G
Tony, the only time I get to 8700' is in an airplane lol. How do you breathe up there?
That spot, with domes recommended, was an issue for me and my 13 pro the first year. When I was doing my initial "jetting" on the new to me Pro, that rpm slot would blister my EV plug tips in 30 secs. Took a lot of fuel added to calm it down. One of the reasons I'm starting with stock rpm opening.
The quest has started lol. First without changing anything I'm going to find out if Poo threw in different opening rpms for elevation changes. First year with one head I needed two maps daily. Second year with head mods I didn't.
The thing about quests though, sometimes they lead to a golden chalis and sometimes you learn they should not have been taken lol.
That spot, with domes recommended, was an issue for me and my 13 pro the first year. When I was doing my initial "jetting" on the new to me Pro, that rpm slot would blister my EV plug tips in 30 secs. Took a lot of fuel added to calm it down. One of the reasons I'm starting with stock rpm opening.
The quest has started lol. First without changing anything I'm going to find out if Poo threw in different opening rpms for elevation changes. First year with one head I needed two maps daily. Second year with head mods I didn't.
The thing about quests though, sometimes they lead to a golden chalis and sometimes you learn they should not have been taken lol.
G
Huh, I forgot about Al,,, and we used to work together so long ago. I just put Revy out of my mind (parking issues lol.) so long ago too.
I'll give him a call. He's always got s**t kicking around lol.
I'll give him a call. He's always got s**t kicking around lol.
OK , thanks for posting this, just so i understand this correct !
3086120 Cover and diaphragm ( sold as a set ) ( is this diaphragm the same that is on my valve now ? stock pro)
3086126- o- ring ( i don,t remember but i don,t think there is a o-ring in my stock set up , the bellows edge does the sealing
3085744 adjuster ( is this the blue cap in the cover ? )
So if i can get my dealer to order these , it just bolts on ?
Thanks
Similar threads
