a most likely scenario, would you buy it ?

gus bohne · May 14, 2016

Lets just think about an oem turbo 2 stroke offering.

Much like a racing motorcycle or spec build stock class drag car or Lmp 2 or 3 road course offering from any oem. These vehicles ARE for sale to the public . They all carry the common denominator of being tagged... " for competition use only. No warranty or gaurantee expressed or implied ""

In a nutshell, like any motocross bike or snox sled from any brand carries with it at purchase. the buyer assumes all responsibility for any damages .

Would you buy ?

Be honest when you answer.

Are you willing to put up 15,000$ for one knowing its all up to you to accept failures form modifying beyond the oem boost levels, poor fuel choice, bad luck at the gas pump, tricked computer and raised boost oopsies..
All of it.. Would you really step up and be an owner ? MORE SO a HAPPY owner ?

This is what I see as the most likely scenario IF and oem is to ever offer a 2 stroke turbo to the public.

If the mountain guys can handle this """competition use only moniker'' PLEASE speak up !!!
BRP has a flexible mindset and does love the mountain market. You guys who can step up to this thinking may be JUST what pushes them to offer one SOONER than LATER.

Make your voices heard !!!

Gus

Motorbreath_ · May 14, 2016

I see no benefit of BRP offering this type of sled to a consumer. Anyone who wants a turbo is going to turbo their sled with a kit of their own preference.

They would need to come up with some freaky new idea that the other turbo kits don't offer in order to sway people from the aftermarket.

I would still rather buy a N/A sled and boost and tune it myself. I feel safe that way.

So like I said, unless they design something to indulge the consumer or there is in fact a factory warranty what is the point?

PaulAnd · May 14, 2016

Yamaha offers a 3 year factory warranty for a dealer installed turbo...
Just sayin..

My personal style of riding is more of a slow creeping through tight woods.. A turbo doesnt
Suit me..
So im not interested in 40 extra hp
I'll take the 10 extra!
So im out on the turbo..
But a factory 2 stroke turbo, warranty or no warranty would be awesome!
And the first to doo it! Would be...
Well----> the first!

Motorbreath_ · May 14, 2016

PaulAnd said:
Yamaha offers a 3 year factory warranty for a dealer installed turbo...
Just sayin..

There are some large loop holes in the "warranty" though. Trust me.

In Canada it was only possible to get 1 year. At least that's how it was when I checked into it.

Everyone can benefit from a turbo, you just don't know it yet. :face-icon-small-hap

bailer · May 14, 2016

Most guys have a lot more on the line with their deleted diesel tow rigs. Losing my Ram/Cummins engine warranty was a lot more of a risk, but easily worth it for the performance gains.

With that said, I don't believe it is a question we will have to face.
Yamaha now offering a factory installed turbo, plus all of BRP's boosted engines makes me think they will be offering a turbo 2 stroke 850.

glmtnapex · May 14, 2016

I have not personally ridden a turbo sled, 2 stroke or 4 stroke. So it's true, I don't know what I'm missing. But I tend to agree that my 2014 Etec 800 163" has more than enough power for the type of riding I do (deep snow/trees) in the areas I ride (Colorado, 9000'-12,000'). But that also hasn't stopped me from wanting and snow-checking a new Gen4.

I also have, in the past, purchased the new MX dirt bike you mention which comes with no warranty, but those bikes don't come with factory turbos.
But some jet skis do. Kawasaki also makes a supercharged street bike (the H2?) which is manufactured in extremely small numbers (less than 1000 units per year?) AND it costs over $25K usd, IF you can get one (there's a waiting list). Many of them were bought and then immediately re-listed for more money.

To (finally) answer your question, yes, I think there's a limited market for a factory tricked-out turbo mountain sled sold without a warranty. There are plenty of guys (and girls?) who are blessed with an abundance of money (I'm not one of the unfortunately!) that want the latest and greatest and don't want to go through the whole process of buying a sled and then turning it over to someone to install a turbo kit. They want to walk into the show room, or point at a picture in a brochure and say, "give me one (two, three, ect) of those", write a check or flip out the Black American Express (no limit!!), and have them delivered to their 'cabin' at the top of the hill. Skidoo would sell some, but they wouldn't be cheap ($25K?) and they'd be very exclusive/limited.... But very cool!

End of ramble.

sledhead_24_7 · May 14, 2016

Well first anyone who puts a can on is "technically" voiding warranty. But I won't get to much on that.

But guys putting turbos on now already have assumed the "risk" involved as they have no warranty already after their turbo. A OEM offering a turbo version from the factory would not change their situation other than it was done at the factory, with OEM support, better fueling options, parts would be designed and built around the "boost application", oh and factory tested, and most likely cheaper than aftermarket etc. The list of benefits would be longer than the short comings list, I'd think.

gus bohne · May 15, 2016

I dont see any reason to belive an OEM version would be the least bit better in any way shape or form than what you have now from your dedicated kit builders.
Those teams of Hot Rodders have produced sytems as good or better than any oem would be able to.

You see, the consumables of a 2 stroke turbo, ie. Reeds , rings and sometimes engines are just a FACT of the engine type and what they are exposed to. Hard to see an OEM warrantying these consumables.. Hence the ""sold as a closed course competition vehicle."
This allows them to provide the Consumer with a package yet protect themselves from US and our overzealous desire to tinker till she blows and tow it in for warranty ..

IMHO... I would buy one every yr without any warranty and smile all the way.. Would it better than a home build with a well regarded system ? No .. but it would be OEM.

Just some thoughts to help you fellas understand how hard it is to be IN this market segment and expect an OEM offering. 2 strokes are not 4 strokes. the cylces are not seperated. ONLY the dome of a 4 stroke piston is exposed to heat. On the 2 stroke we expose the skirts and dome and tax the reeds and exhaust side of the piston skirt.

too many risks for too few rewards..

Maybe,, just maybe your wishes will come true..
good replies guys. thanks for that...

Reg2view · May 15, 2016

Another twist - This might be better done by an OEM starting up a separate performance company, taking OEM vehicles and then doing limited model builds. Lower overhead, mainly a few engineers and builders, maybe some marketing. Wouldn't have to be just sleds. Or complete vehicles (something like GTYR with an affiliated brand). Limited liability through a separate, wholly-owned entity, or even joint with an existing performance co.

A natural sales channel exists through qualified dealers in their existing dealer networks, to avoid the inevitable channel collision. They'd have to make money on the product, to at least match the lost margin of the stock OEM machines for both dealer and the OEM. They would use much of the back office admin and marketing of the OEM. But it would also be a marketing 'engine' for the OEM, if the products were indeed bad-a$$ enough to top any other stock OEM products from competitors. Entry and exit would be easy without diluting the OEM's brand. Trickle down certain products to the OEM.

Either poo or doo could do this. I wouldn't count either out. Arctco just doesn't have the scale or capital or leadership - and think they there are kinda there, anyways. Y would be a no-go, no chassis, and not how the Japanese market.

I'd guess that they could sell 500-1000 after a couple of years. Would it be worth the marketing effort? Dunno. Takes vision and stones to do this stuff, hero or zero.

sledhead_24_7 · May 15, 2016

It was worth it for each OEM to build a min of 500 units for hillclimb racing. I.E. Freerides, Assualts, HCRs. To qualify for "stock production"

Plus the OEM has a vastly superior budget than ANY aftermarket turbo outfit. Which should equal better product....

Motorbreath_ · May 16, 2016

I know no one really wants to talk about Yamaha around here, but what they did this year with the Sidewinder is pretty impressive to say the least. (Pics below) They now have a turbo "Viper" that will out perform all aftermarket offerings. At the same time providing a decent warranty.

BRP has the means to come up with some new high tech 2 stroke engine that will accept a turbo with great ease.. but whats the hurry they already have number 1 market share.

DITCHBANGER · May 16, 2016

lets compare sidewinder spring check sales to the axys or g4, the only thing impressive with the sidewinder is total hp, but it comes with a huge weight penalty. With all its hp its still not even any competition to g4/axys

Reg2view · May 16, 2016

Ski-doo is the overall market share industry leader, but is not number one in the mountain segment, the largest segment in the industry, and also does not have the number one selling model in the industry. There's two real reasons for doo to be more aggressive. Gotta be the thorns under their saddle right now.

christopher · May 16, 2016

Reg2view said:
Ski-doo is the overall market share industry leader, but is not number one in the mountain segment, the largest segment in the industry, and also does not have the number one selling model in the industry. There's two real reasons for doo to be more aggressive. Gotta be the thorns under their saddle right now.

Wait a sec.
WHEN did the MOUNTAIN SEGMENT become the LARGEST SEGMENT in our industry?

1500psi · May 16, 2016

gus bohne said:
Lets just think about an oem turbo 2 stroke offering.

Much like a racing motorcycle or spec build stock class drag car or Lmp 2 or 3 road course offering from any oem. These vehicles ARE for sale to the public . They all carry the common denominator of being tagged... " for competition use only. No warranty or gaurantee expressed or implied ""

In a nutshell, like any motocross bike or snox sled from any brand carries with it at purchase. the buyer assumes all responsibility for any damages .

Would you buy ?

Be honest when you answer.

Are you willing to put up 15,000$ for one knowing its all up to you to accept failures form modifying beyond the oem boost levels, poor fuel choice, bad luck at the gas pump, tricked computer and raised boost oopsies..
All of it.. Would you really step up and be an owner ? MORE SO a HAPPY owner ?

This is what I see as the most likely scenario IF and oem is to ever offer a 2 stroke turbo to the public.

If the mountain guys can handle this """competition use only moniker'' PLEASE speak up !!!
BRP has a flexible mindset and does love the mountain market. You guys who can step up to this thinking may be JUST what pushes them to offer one SOONER than LATER.

Make your voices heard !!!

How about this instead since it's always motor motor Motor.. If the motor problems are truely what's is holding back BRP from a stock 2stroke turbo, how about everything is under warranty except the "long block" Wouldn't that just about solve everything?

christopher · May 16, 2016

gus bohne said:
No warranty or gaurantee expressed or implied ""

In a nutshell, like any motocross bike or snox sled from any brand carries with it at purchase. the buyer assumes all responsibility for any damages .

Would you buy ?

Be honest when you answer.

Gus

Not only would I, but I HAVE bought like that, and would happily do so again.

gus bohne · May 17, 2016

Chrissy,

Thats is the mindset YOU the consumer have to put forth for this to ever happen.
Those who feel there HAS TO BE some warranty,, WHY ?

Its a shame you fellas cant get your head around the FACT that NO OEM will or can produce a turbo 2 stroke that is in any way superior to those already on the snow from your current group of top tier suppliers.
Of course the lower tier kits will still be what they are.

There really is nothing that the oem can do better short of the actual chassis design to fit the package better.

hobbes · May 17, 2016

The only reason I would ever buy an OEM 2 Stroke turbo WITHOUT some kind of warranty would be if they truly did improve on something the aftermarket companies have not. IE getting rid of excessive reed wear completely, somehow eliminating all lag (although some of the aftermarkets are about as good as it gets already imo), etc.

My whole problem with the oem turbo offerings is that they would end up on the extremely conservative side with boost levels and turbo size. I guarantee the Yamaha aftermarket guys are working on upgraded turbos, increased boost and the fueling to go with it as we speak. So at that point any warranty that DID come with your sled is now null and void anyway.

The thing is, this is just MY way of thinking. I'm familiar with turbo 2 strokes and have been running them for the last 10 years. That gives me a completely different point of view than the average Joe that likes to ride stock sleds and doesn't own or want to own a wrench. I honestly think that if Doo was to offer an 850 turbo that runs at a max of say 4-5 lbs of boost, has at least SOME kind of warranty (even it it excludes reeds maybe?) and retains the weight of the current offerings, they would sell a ton of them.

hobbes · May 17, 2016

gus bohne said:
Chrissy,

Thats is the mindset YOU the consumer have to put forth for this to ever happen.
Those who feel there HAS TO BE some warranty,, WHY ?

Its a shame you fellas cant get your head around the FACT that NO OEM will or can produce a turbo 2 stroke that is in any way superior to those already on the snow from your current group of top tier suppliers.
Of course the lower tier kits will still be what they are.

There really is nothing that the oem can do better short of the actual chassis design to fit the package better.

I'm interested to hear your opinion on how the new 850's intake tract design might impact reed life, if at all. We are all aware that lubricating the reeds with the booster injectors is necessity, especially with boost. But what about how they shortened the intake itself, the reeds are about as close to the piston skirt as you can get. Any effect there, positive or negative? Besides throttle response obviously.

You also mentioned the new exhaust valve setup earlier. I don't know for sure, but I'm assuming they went away from the vacuum operated system and went to a servo controlled system. Besides the obvious advantage of not having to worry about boost pressure bumbling up your exhaust valves and the check valve that controls them, anything to be had here regarding adding boost?

And when you're done schooling me on those things, take a step back and really think about these changes, along with the crank, piston, and cylinder coating engineering and give me your honest opinion on why do you think BRP would make all of these changes when building a new motor from the ground up. Is it all just to increase reliability of a N/A motor? To reduce the actual size of the motor package to narrow the chassis? To wring out as much horsepower out of 850cc's as possible? I realize this might come off as me trying to convince you that an oem turbo offering is just around the corner. On the contrary, I'm just genuinely interested in hearing your opinion on all these changes to doo's new powerplant and how it will affect us. And how it will affect the other 2 stroke snowmobile mfg's and how they build their motors in the future.

gus bohne · May 17, 2016

Hobbes, the reeds and no closer to the piston than b4. BUT reeds in close is a trouble spot for piston reed fed turbos.

The plasma coating was developed and patented in Germany in 2009. It uses a mig gun type torch feeding out a STD steel wire ( same as we weld with ) . compressed air disperses it around the diameter of the bore. It is a GREEN process that will put the nicasil folks out of business soon.
You end up with a steel surface that can be finished with std stones . it can be honed to take out streaks too. but it can also be HONED away.. have to be careful..Im happy to see it made its way to ROTAX AUSTRIA. Remeber they are the engine builder and designer..
the BOOSTER injectors are there to COOL the reeds but more importantly to act as accelerator pump, enrichening the column of air during on off quick throttle blade movements. direct injectors deal with the ""now "" in the cyl. they cannot react quick enough nor can the flow enough volume to ''do it all' so to speak. There is only a very few milliseconds to make all that needed fuel get pumped up to 1000 psi and passed to the chamber.

( yes e tech and orbital have voice or hammer coils to drive pressure IN the injector to that psi or higher , again trying to get it all into the chamber b4 its too late.)
Direct injectors have limits. rpm and volume are what governs them. along with electric demands. lots of amps needed for this.

all good stuff and fun to see it being worked out in the sport we love.

you see the cottage market that has come from the 4 stroke cat oem turbo.. SAME will happen if DOO releases a NO warranty oem low boost turbo.. BOOM !!! instant market..
Im happy to see it if they DOO it., we will be busy swapping turbos, injectors intercoolers, plumbing and of course flashing tunes like kids in a school lunch !!

a most likely scenario, would you buy it ?

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