LMAO at 860s keeping up with pump gas boosted sleds.
Ya, my stock Pro (Carl's set up) has no problem beating an 08 Carl's 860 (my bro-in-law's). Not sure why, but that's the deal.
Turbo or SLP kit
- Thread starter MTN Powderhound
- Start date
Ya, my stock Pro (Carl's set up) has no problem beating an 08 Carl's 860 (my bro-in-law's). Not sure why, but that's the deal.
S
swrev
Well-known member
LMAO at 860s keeping up with pump gas boosted sleds.
Just what I've seen comparing w/ both Skidoo and Polaris 860's up to 8000'. The pump gas Pro (which will not keep off the det. sensor w/out race fuel or aviation gas) gets the edge for sure in higher elevation. Might be the sled isn't tuned properlerly. To be fair, the Skidoo has belt drive, Timbersled rear skid also, so that makes quite a difference. The Polaris is an '09 w/ drop and roll, Timbersled rear, Vanamburg tunnel. So these particular 860's do outperform other 860's I've seen by quite a margin just because they go through the snow so much better than stock chassis sleds. Pump gas sleds w/ similiar mods would no doubt also realize the same gains. I didn't realize the Polaris cost so much to big bore. With that, I would do the turbo on a Polaris because you always have the option of turning up the boost. That is what I do when those pesky 860's get to close to my turbo. At 8 lbs, I never have to worry, at 6, the 860's are right there 90% of the time. I ride from 4000' to 10,000' so running straight pump gas is never an option w/ a turbo or big bore for that matter.
Phat 1 it all depends on the sled, what the conditions for comparison are/were, and who set it/them up....they are not universal. There were a huge batch of turbo "pump gas" {ahem ahem ahem platooey} PRO's that couldn't get out their own way this past year. Most systems could only attain 6lbs on true 100% 91 oct pump fuel...that would be guys running over 5000ft anything below that must add octane and keep the boost to a minimum for the Polaris systems. Even 5 alt was super iffy...and by the end of the year almost everyone was mixing fuel irregardless of the kit. Mostly because 5-6lbs boost equals no felt or experienced gain!
all things being at peak the alt conditions don't level the playing field until about 7000ft...and then once again duration of the run comes into play
Where Suitcase lives 3200-6600 ft most of the riding season and it's mostly short burst, super steep, and very thick trees...yes he is far better off to run a big bore especially since he is considering what performance package to run on his 2012 PRO. I'd say at the results I've seen from the PRO turbo's so far he'd be better off stock with a head for his type of riding. OR Assumptions made that the Carl's 900 runs good and offers a 20% average performance increase over stock. Also note that I had that Carl's twin pipe 860 that flat out smoked legit 8lbs pump gas (even back then they were cheating on the pump gas deal..YOU COULD SMELL EM) iq raw sleds both in drags at Bend, then at West Mountain with boondockers, as well as all over the hills in Wyoming two seasons ago. That is the sled Al Anderson ended up with and it was OUTSTANDING. I think that is kind of where he is coming from on the big bore versus the pump gas turbo deal. Obviously we are mixing sleds and results from the years experiences but I thought I would clarify if possible what Chris is talking about.
all things being at peak the alt conditions don't level the playing field until about 7000ft...and then once again duration of the run comes into play
Where Suitcase lives 3200-6600 ft most of the riding season and it's mostly short burst, super steep, and very thick trees...yes he is far better off to run a big bore especially since he is considering what performance package to run on his 2012 PRO. I'd say at the results I've seen from the PRO turbo's so far he'd be better off stock with a head for his type of riding. OR Assumptions made that the Carl's 900 runs good and offers a 20% average performance increase over stock. Also note that I had that Carl's twin pipe 860 that flat out smoked legit 8lbs pump gas (even back then they were cheating on the pump gas deal..YOU COULD SMELL EM) iq raw sleds both in drags at Bend, then at West Mountain with boondockers, as well as all over the hills in Wyoming two seasons ago. That is the sled Al Anderson ended up with and it was OUTSTANDING. I think that is kind of where he is coming from on the big bore versus the pump gas turbo deal. Obviously we are mixing sleds and results from the years experiences but I thought I would clarify if possible what Chris is talking about.
R
RKT
Well-known member
LMAO at 860s keeping up with pump gas boosted sleds.
YUP,, absolutely hillarious... especially when it happens!!
Of course.. ALL the turbos in this area are set up poorly.. There is no way that Northern UT or SE ID has ANY good turbo tuners..or manufacturers for that reason... they all come from OTHER areas..
D
dmkhnr
Well-known member
LMAO as well with the big bore beating a turbo.
Bring your 860, 900, big bore up to 9000-10k elev and tell everybody you dropped $3k-$4k into your motor. Even at 6# on straight 91 I'd have a laugh.
We had one of Strangers kits on our pro, and it ran like crap the beginning of the season, switched it out to a boondocker which ran but had growing pains, after clutching, and fueling and intake changes it runs flawless at 10#. I'll be riding an HM next season and was told that 6# pump gas will feel like 10# on my bd sled.
Maybe the 860 or 900 will pull a turbo, but not a properly tuned turbo.
There isn't anything wrong with the slp kit, or a big bore, but to compare it too a turbo (at my elevation) is just silly.
Bring your 860, 900, big bore up to 9000-10k elev and tell everybody you dropped $3k-$4k into your motor. Even at 6# on straight 91 I'd have a laugh.
We had one of Strangers kits on our pro, and it ran like crap the beginning of the season, switched it out to a boondocker which ran but had growing pains, after clutching, and fueling and intake changes it runs flawless at 10#. I'll be riding an HM next season and was told that 6# pump gas will feel like 10# on my bd sled.
Maybe the 860 or 900 will pull a turbo, but not a properly tuned turbo.
There isn't anything wrong with the slp kit, or a big bore, but to compare it too a turbo (at my elevation) is just silly.
That is fine but the guy with the question is talking about 5000-5500ft average riding alt and running pump gas not 9000ft at 10lbs boost. He's in BC so most likely he's starting out much lower as well. I really seriously doubt he's going to be able to turbo a pro with 91 pump and enjoy it within those parameters.
Does anyone on this forum have a 5-6lbs boost on pump 91 PRO that runs at 5000ft that can coach him? If so can you run 100% on true pump gas without coding the DET? Most that I have been around are putting some amount of race gas or av even at low boost at that alt to get them to go up a hill without laying down to DET code.
Does anyone on this forum have a 5-6lbs boost on pump 91 PRO that runs at 5000ft that can coach him? If so can you run 100% on true pump gas without coding the DET? Most that I have been around are putting some amount of race gas or av even at low boost at that alt to get them to go up a hill without laying down to DET code.
D
dmkhnr
Well-known member
I only made my comment because this thread has gone from somebody who was comparing a SLP port, pipe, and head Vs Turbo, to a big bore can beat a turbo thread.
The OP rides at 5k elev and will more than likely need 30% 110 oct with a turbo at 6#. I'll bet a steak dinner that he'll need a splash of 110 or some type of fuel boost with the SLP kit at 5k elev as-well. Heck, even a bone stocker could use a little octane help if your pumping non eth into your tank.
The funny thing is: This isn't year 2007-2009 where you buy a brand new sled and throw another $2k at it in lightweight seats/pipes/clutching/port to get it up and rippin. (Polaris already did that for us with the pro) Buy the sled throw it on the snow and it surpasses anything from the prior years right out of the box. (I threw a shallower helix on my stocker). A good rider can take this sled anywhere that the 10# turbo guys are going. If you can't, than you'd get more gain out of honing your riding skills, than any big bore/port package/turbo are going to give you.
OK so I would ask the original thread maker what his goal is? You state your buddy has an SLP kit that he spent somewhere around $2500 (assuming the turbo kits average $4500) to get 55mph track speed. Were you impressed with your mates buggy? Are you looking to put a bit of a whipping on him for the love of friendly competition or get similar performance results for the most cost effective way to achieve it?
T
timber_tramp
Well-known member
Was wondering what some opinions are on either, putting on the SLP stage 3 kit or turbo on pump gas. Buddy put an SLP kit on and is running 55 mph track speed. One of the videos I watched said that they were running 60 mph track speed. Is it worth spending extra 2000$ on turbo kit for 5mph?
Good Thread.
I've been trying to figure out what direction to go with performance mods.
$2k for the SLP stage 3 for 14hp and should stay easy to tree ride.
$4k for Silbers turbo kit is better hp/$ but how much extra maintenance am I going to have per season? Is the turbo going to be a handful in the trees?
Most seasons I ride 1000mi.
I was impressed by the performance. I always like friendly competition. So I just wondered what options were out there. I am not interested in adding race or av gas, mainly from the expense. All the input from everyone has been great 
. I will just have to ponder all this info and find what will be the best for me.
. I will just have to ponder all this info and find what will be the best for me.
FYI:
This is not set in stone yet, but it looks like we are going to release a stage 4 kit soon. I just rode it on Thursday and it is working well. It will be another 4 or 5 HP over the stageIII. We will continue to test the kit as long as we have snow..... we like to do as much durability testing as possible. It will be a pump gas kit as are all of our stage kits. We will only release for high elevation at first as we have not tested it below 5000 foot. We will do so next season when the snow will allow it. I will post this on a new thread when it is official.
Dustin
This is not set in stone yet, but it looks like we are going to release a stage 4 kit soon. I just rode it on Thursday and it is working well. It will be another 4 or 5 HP over the stageIII. We will continue to test the kit as long as we have snow..... we like to do as much durability testing as possible. It will be a pump gas kit as are all of our stage kits. We will only release for high elevation at first as we have not tested it below 5000 foot. We will do so next season when the snow will allow it. I will post this on a new thread when it is official.
Dustin
A
Anthony Oberti
Well-known member
I, personally, have run big bores, ported motors and now am on my 2nd turbo. I think it really depends on what you are looking for. I have several opinions about this. First off, I run a Carls Cycle BD Pro turbo, at 9-10lbs, and mix 30% race. No big bore will come even close!! However, when deciding between the two, I look at it this way. Why spend all this money($2500-5000) for only a small gain in power??? Really, why? If you are going to spend the dough, why not get some real power gains(ie-turbo). Here in California, our fuel is so unpredictable, that even a "pump gas" big bore, would require a gallon or two of race just to be safe. Heck, even the piped sleds do. I have ALWAYS run fuel in my big bores. Some say it is good insurance, and many motor builders tell you the same. (and I do understand that running fuel when it is not required makes your sled run poorly). So back to the question, if you are going to dump that cash, whats another $10-20 a tank to mix some race and make some decent horsepower. The whole, "turbo-lag" or "I ride the trees" arguement is a thing of the past. The only legitimate arguement would be that you truly want to run pump fuel, and pump fuel only. It seems the turbos can only run 6-7lbs on true pump. And if that is the case, I would say, save your money, throw an SLP pipe on it, and run the crap out of it. The set-up works VERY well. But, I just can't justify spending another $1000-2000 for 10hp-ish. And for what it is worth, I never hear someone with a new, dialed-in turbo, say, " I wish I had less power and could just run pump fuel". Just my opinion.....and experience, and I believe big bores are slowly becoming a thing of the past. Now, Big Bored Turbos....that is another topic 
great answer Anthony.
Finally an experianced non-biased answer to this odd question.
I've been drinking, but hear me out.
MTN Powderhound, if you are as unexperienced as you seem, then the SLP setup is the only way to go.
run the big bore till you have some big deep snow days and have to follow the turbo tracks to get out of the bowl, then add the turbo to the big bore. Or keep the pro and buy dmkhnr's turbo already setup.
The turbo is too strong and requires too much fine tuning on the Pro for you to handle. Sorry, but just getting the pro to be as strong as an M8 will be great for that light of a sled. For anyone who claims an 860 or 995 will run with a pg turbo, I have both and you dont understand how much speed the pg turbo achieves on a hill at 9000 ft. I know he runs at 6000ft, but that brings the bigbore down 20% if it is clutched and jetted perfectly. The pg turbo will be plus 25% all day. Sorry, but if someone has both of them running perfect, the turbo will kill the big bore.
Like anthony said, the Big Bore and the Turbo both need a splash of race after voiding your warrantee.
If you are afraid of Race Gas, then ride it stock till the crank breaks, then stroke it.
2011 M8s in california need more octane even bone stock.
Finally an experianced non-biased answer to this odd question.
I've been drinking, but hear me out.
MTN Powderhound, if you are as unexperienced as you seem, then the SLP setup is the only way to go.
run the big bore till you have some big deep snow days and have to follow the turbo tracks to get out of the bowl, then add the turbo to the big bore. Or keep the pro and buy dmkhnr's turbo already setup.
The turbo is too strong and requires too much fine tuning on the Pro for you to handle. Sorry, but just getting the pro to be as strong as an M8 will be great for that light of a sled. For anyone who claims an 860 or 995 will run with a pg turbo, I have both and you dont understand how much speed the pg turbo achieves on a hill at 9000 ft. I know he runs at 6000ft, but that brings the bigbore down 20% if it is clutched and jetted perfectly. The pg turbo will be plus 25% all day. Sorry, but if someone has both of them running perfect, the turbo will kill the big bore.
Like anthony said, the Big Bore and the Turbo both need a splash of race after voiding your warrantee.
If you are afraid of Race Gas, then ride it stock till the crank breaks, then stroke it.
2011 M8s in california need more octane even bone stock.
It seems the turbos can only run 6-7lbs on true pump.
Isn't that like a 45-50% power gain over the base engine? Is boost the new "my dad can beat up your dad" thing?
Is SLP exploring boost? 1psi would cover up to StageIII dang near.
T
timber_tramp
Well-known member
Could you turbo guys enlighten us on the extra maintenance related to owning a boosted sled?
D
dmkhnr
Well-known member
1 thing to consider too is your mechanical ability. I've swapped a piston out on my pro, and popping the head/cylinder is a JOB. I've ridden cats since 04, and ported or big bored every single one of them. I can pull a top end in 30 minutes.
When I did my pro, I left the motor in the chassis and RR on the cylinder was a long tedious process. The easiest way to do this would be to remove the motor from the chassis, pull the top and send it off to SLP. Install the newly ported cyl/head and then install the motor back into the chassis. Most guys will have to pay somebody to do this.
When I did my pro, I left the motor in the chassis and RR on the cylinder was a long tedious process. The easiest way to do this would be to remove the motor from the chassis, pull the top and send it off to SLP. Install the newly ported cyl/head and then install the motor back into the chassis. Most guys will have to pay somebody to do this.
A
Anthony Oberti
Well-known member
Great question. To be 100% honest, my first Turbo Dragon, I looked over everything real qucik when I out it away after EVERY ride. I checked pulgs, looked at the wash with a light, checked hoses, etc. I was so paranoid about anything happening that I was always looking it over. With my Pro I did the same thing the first couple rides, bu that was it. Now, I will say the first BD box and programming was not correct and I had some issues, but after the new 3D box came out things changed. I change plugs about every 250 miles, and I changed reeds every 400 miles. I believe the reed issue will be fixed next year with the extra injectors and intercooler. Regardless or turbo or not, I clean my clutches once a month, check the air in my shocks, track alignment, and make sure the limiter strap is still there
As for hoses, and wash, I really havent done that. I know this answer seems long winded, but now that BD and Carls has this thing figured out, I really havent done anything to it. I ride it, clean it off when I am done, and put it away. The ONLY issue I can see with the turbos are that they are hard on reeds, but like I said, that seems like it will be fixed next year.I have owned Ploaris Big Bore 870, 910, and 1140, and currently, the BD/Carls Turbo Pro(now dialed in) is the most maintenance free sled I have had. There were growing pains earlier this season, but going forward for next year, I would do it again in a heart beat. Any high performance sled like this (Turbo or Big Bore) should be maintained with a little closer eye in my opinion, but this by no means should scare you away. If you TRULY want to run pump gas, and NEVER have to look over your sled(which is very easy with simple instruction), then I would just put an SLP pipe on it. That package, with good clutching, really works well.....I mean REAL well. If I wasnt use to the horsepower and like to challenge my sled or myself, I would definately run that package. Hope this helps...
S
SXViper
Well-known member
Nitrous?
Not to complicate things any further but have you considered nitrous as an option? It has comparable power gains but only when you choose or really need it. Typically it’s reliable and can be done for around $1500. I only suggest this option because like you I am making the same considerations with my new pro.
Not to complicate things any further but have you considered nitrous as an option? It has comparable power gains but only when you choose or really need it. Typically it’s reliable and can be done for around $1500. I only suggest this option because like you I am making the same considerations with my new pro.
One thing that confuses me is when sleders are more than willing to put out 2 to 3 thou but the cost of race gas is a deal breaker, just carry 2 five gal cans of race gas per trip (4 days average) and mix each day. The cost of fuel is forgotten by the smile on your face .
SXviper...I met with a guy in Bend over Memorial Day weekend and he has a 2011 PRO with nitrous all else was stock. (don't know how he was clutched but I assume they tinkered with it in some fashion..him and his buddy are accomplished performance guys) Now obviously there are different kits and amounts you could throw at them so this is just one limited circumstance.
Our demo PRO with a $300 13.6 power addiction head, carl's clutching, and a trimmed to 2.1" stock 5.1 track was pretty much dominating the nitrous sled. Stock exhaust and no control box. We made over 10 comparison run tests on a drag strip at 660ft (6250 elevation 30*). He tried all kinds of variations of how he applied the nitrous. Some performed or equaled improvements but NONE were what you would call conclusively better then just adding compression and good clutching with a superior performing traction device.
By the end of this weekend I"m pretty sure he is going to duplicate our setup on his 2012 rather then messing with nitrous.
Not at all saying there isn't a place for nitrous or that it can't be a nice performance plus at the end of a big climb or super deep conditions that have eaten your HP at alt but it wouldn't be the first aspect of money for superior performance on these setups.
Our demo PRO with a $300 13.6 power addiction head, carl's clutching, and a trimmed to 2.1" stock 5.1 track was pretty much dominating the nitrous sled. Stock exhaust and no control box. We made over 10 comparison run tests on a drag strip at 660ft (6250 elevation 30*). He tried all kinds of variations of how he applied the nitrous. Some performed or equaled improvements but NONE were what you would call conclusively better then just adding compression and good clutching with a superior performing traction device.
By the end of this weekend I"m pretty sure he is going to duplicate our setup on his 2012 rather then messing with nitrous.
Not at all saying there isn't a place for nitrous or that it can't be a nice performance plus at the end of a big climb or super deep conditions that have eaten your HP at alt but it wouldn't be the first aspect of money for superior performance on these setups.
