Torsion Spring Delete Kit? Long Winded.

[galljr13]

In the attempt to fix some of the unique handling aspects of the Gen-4 platform, I have listened to many conversations about spindles, rubbers, t-motion lock out, better suspension, "just get used to it", "learn to ride it", post forward kits, etc.

I think we can all agree that the gen-4 does not handle like an Arctic Cat or Polaris. Some love it, some hate it. There's nothing wrong with that and to each there own. Every brand has pro's and cons.

I spent the last 11 years riding Cats (including 4-strokes) and Poos. They handle very similarly to me. I switched to Doo 2 years ago. For me, there are many pros of the Doo. However, I have felt that the sled tends to transfer to the tail facilitating trenching vs getting on top of the snow and that side hilling tends to be rather squirrelly. Those are the only two cons in my eyes.

One clear issue are the rubbers. Way too much flex. Durapro fixed this. Even better than the 2021 rubbers and spindles, I measured as I have a 2019 and 2021. I rode with t-motion for one year and locked it out with a Z-motion rear link. I prefer locked out. Was it a game changer? No. However, the set up did reduce the squirrelliness at a fair price. I know the benefit of good shocks but I don't think that is a game changer either regarding addressing the issues I see.

Torsion Springs - It that it? No other mountain sled has them. I never hear anyone talking about the benefits of them. Rumors indicate more predictability sidehilling and better transfer allowing the sled to pop up on the snow.

Several kits out there from Elka, Toms, Zbros, Raptor ACE, etc. Do these kits fix the issue?

Most anyone that spends large amounts of coin on an upgrade will defend that upgrade to the grave even if they don't see any significant gain. Has anyone tried these kits compared to the the other kits? Is one better? And how does it truly compare to stock for those that have ridden other brands in the last 5 years?

Not looking for input from people who suspect it will be better or worse. Real world feedback appreciated.

Thanks for your time and insight.

p.s. In the end, at least we aren't riding polaris and hiking out

 

[Devilmanak]

LOL. Love the post. I agree with everything that you said. My experience with torsion deletes is that if you don't lock out the T-Mo, then you have a flippity floppity rear end. The torsion springs DO help to center the skid. I can remember adjusting my deleted Summit on the hill, flipping the sled on it's side to do it, and being amazed at how far the skid was sagging down with it's own weight. Same sled, had an issue with aligning the track. The sled had to be perfectly level in order to align the track, because the skid wouldn't stay straight with the tunnel.

 

[justin.symes.7]

I have run the ZBros torsion delete for 3 years now and it is a game changer in the rear suspension. I've run it with the tmotion locked out for the first year and with tmotion for the rest and honestly I didn't notice a difference with or without tmotion. I ran C&A pro skis for 2 years and they helped with keeping the front end down on side hills but they are very hard on the shoulders in anything but fresh pow. I'll be running stock skis on my expert this year with the spindles centered over the rubber. Others have had good luck with this set up and I think I will too from the few times I rode it.

The torsion delete makes the rear suspension way stiffer and more responsive. I've found it helps keep the side hill and the front end down. Not to mention I find it easier to adjust with the Exit shock

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[kiliki]

you guy nailed it. most tech on the computer and t2trk side and a chassis and skid from 08 with bandaids... amazing turbo but man help me love this pig from 08. torsion spring still!!! give me vet steering and a narrower tunnel with the front end and back not trying to lead on a sidehill everything else is a home run!

 

[bnorth]

There is a great thread on another mountain snowmobiling site (S&M) about a guy that swapped in a RTS from a Cat with a custom homemade bracket to delete the torsion springs and also gain rear lockout. He runs it with an XP rear arm to delete T-motion. It's worth the read. PM me for a link if you can't find it.

 

[JH@CM]

Great comments.

I have run two gen4 sleds, and ultimately Tom's e-motion kit on both of them after a few hundred miles. Have gone with the Tom's QSL-R Fox rear.

The torsion spring delete changes the rear suspension significantly. I find that for riding tech and side hilling a lot, it makes the sled handle more predictably. It makes for a more firm and robust rear suspension feel and platform, and is of course adjustable. Generally, doos ride too soft with all things stock if you want to ride tech.

As has been mentioned, soft or collapsing shocks are a bad thing in the doo chasis unless you are a small beginner learning to ride pow.

 

[Bocephus]

You guys are building my confidence I am making the correct move this year. I have my 4th Doo on the choppin block right now. I have chose to remove the torsions, replace with a coil over, and lock out T motion. Hopefully I like it. This is what I have done over the years.

13 xm 154'' - drilled new holes in the rails for the free "scissors mod". Didn't do anything for ride quality, but it helped keep the skis down
15 xm 163'' - HD torsion springs (from a utility sled), scissors mod. This was an improvement, but nothing great. It did ride better, it kept the tunnel elevated which kept the boards from dragging so bad, helped keep the front end down, etc...
17 g4 165'' - HD torsion springs, zbrox x1 rear shock and HD torsion springs. This was my favorite setup by far, but it was also the new chassis....so take that with a grain of salt. It did all of the above, and road 10x better.
21 g4 165'' - zbroz x1 rear coilover shock, delete torsions springs, zbroz t-motion lockout arms. I have not even installed these yet, much less tested the setup. Hopefully I have positive results like you guys are reporting.

 

[Devilmanak]

In 17 I installed the next heavier Skidoo torsions, it wasn't good. The shock wasn't valved for the springs, it handled funny on the trails/bumps and rode nose-down, even on the lowest setting. It also trenched. Took them off after one ride and installed the centery slide on bushing thingys. The Hygear ones. THAT worked well. I pulled them off my sleds when I sold them, not sure why I didn't put them on newer sleds. I think that the valving got better so I didn't feel that I needed them. They are sitting in a box on my shelf.

 

[Answ3r]

In 17 I installed the next heavier Skidoo torsions, it wasn't good. The shock wasn't valved for the springs, it handled funny on the trails/bumps and rode nose-down, even on the lowest setting. It also trenched. Took them off after one ride and installed the centery slide on bushing thingys. The Hygear ones. THAT worked well. I pulled them off my sleds when I sold them, not sure why I didn't put them on newer sleds. I think that the valving got better so I didn't feel that I needed them. They are sitting in a box on my shelf.

Post what part number / rate you use. Otherwise it's kinda pointless. There is like 15 different springs you can install.

 

[justinkredible56]

Post what part number / rate you use. Otherwise it's kinda pointless. There is like 15 different springs you can install.

I think most people on summits that are talking about the heavy torsion springs are referring to part numbers 503192270/503192271

 

[Answ3r]

I think most people on summits that are talking about the heavy torsion springs are referring to part numbers 503192270/503192271

see post #4, there's a chart. It's a 2018, but still pretty recent. Going as heavy as that (+30%) without changing the rest of the setup (especially the front ski springs) is a sure way for an unbalanced feel.
I'd suggest trying a smaller step, with a similar increment in front. Never mind the recommendations, scroll down all the way down low and make sure to get the specs you want/need.

Gen 4 Heavy Duty Torsion Springs. Help if you have them.

www.dootalk.com

 

[justin.symes.7]

see post #4, there's a chart. It's a 2018, but still pretty recent. Going as heavy as that (+30%) without changing the rest of the setup (especially the front ski springs) is a sure way for an unbalanced feel.
I'd suggest trying a smaller step, with a similar increment in front. Never mind the recommendations, scroll down all the way down low and make sure to get the specs you want/need.

Gen 4 Heavy Duty Torsion Springs. Help if you have them.

www.dootalk.com

That thread is all about non mountain sleds, I believe that summits only have 2 options when talking about torsion springs

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[Answ3r]

That thread is all about non mountain sleds, I believe that summits only have 2 options when talking about torsion springs

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Did you look at the very bottom of the chart ? There is 10 compatible options.

 

[caper11]

There are way more torsion spring options than guys realize, there is 10 different adjustments on the torsion spring cams. Without changing the torsion spring. My summit is using MXZ springs with the revalveing I have done.
There is a reason why sno cross Race sleds have torsion springs.

 

[Devilmanak]

Post what part number / rate you use. Otherwise it's kinda pointless. There is like 15 different springs you can install.

Actually, there aren't. I posted the NEXT heavier spring. You can look it up, I don't have to babysit. And as I posted, I don't use them any more, as they don't work.

 

[Blainelukens]

I'm running Elkas with the rear torsion spring delete. I like it, these shocks are a huge improvement over the sp shocks. This is on a 19 850 165, my old sled was a 16 xm with Elka's and no torsion delete. The 16 is my wife's sled now and it feels more planted than my 19 however it still has that ski doo squirlyness to it. I have gripper skis and Durapro rubbers as well on the 19, it definitely seems to do well for me. It does seem like without the torsion springs it is easier to make it go where I want it to go, when I get bounced side hilling it doesn't buck me back to both skis. At times it still kinda does what it wants to do. IDK one of the drawbacks to the doo with the flex edge track and t-motion I guess?
Overall I'm happy without the torsion springs.

 

[Devilmanak]

I wish that Doo would give us options like Poo does. Colors, T-mo or not, Flexedge or not. It would make setting my sleds up every year easier. But still never gonna change! Only 50 miles on my 146 Freeride this year so far, but he is a monster!

 

[camyoung603]

I'm trying the RCS torsion springs with their progressive torsion block this rear I have hygear dual rates on the front and center shock with valving and a little more preload up front. The springs are 18 inlbs per degree and while that seems a lot higher it also pushes the mounting location forward about 5 inches I also let the stap out one hole. The idea is that the suspension will colapses until it hits the second pivot point and will make the skis float just above the snow instead of being in a power wheelie. I also put hygears tortion spacers in. I'll give it a shot this year

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[Summit74]

I'm trying the RCS torsion springs with their progressive torsion block this rear I have hygear dual rates on the front and center shock with valving and a little more preload up front. The springs are 18 inlbs per degree and while that seems a lot higher it also pushes the mounting location forward about 5 inches I also let the stap out one hole. The idea is that the suspension will colapses until it hits the second pivot point and will make the skis float just above the snow instead of being in a power wheelie. I also put hygears tortion spacers in. I'll give it a shot this year

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How did you get the RCS kit without buying the Rasmussen complete package? I wanted to try that a few years ago and was directed to order package from Riderasmussen.com.

 

[camyoung603]

I called RCS directly

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