but an Idaho license is good in Washington so they won't buy a WA snow groomer tab..
Grooming fund dropping to Critical levels
- Thread starter 94fordguy
- Start date
but an Idaho license is good in Washington so they won't buy a WA snow groomer tab..
I tried to online today, several times, but it wouldn't let me. I'll have to call tomorrow.
one thing you don't hear at the meetings is the trails that are groomed ,not on the list ,the fact that the groomers say get your hours in or you will loose out next year ,they refuse to remove the snow mound blocking the road as the snow melts back ,you either find a way around or ride gravel until you get to snow ,as many riders know a firm packed trail is great for smaller tracks but for deeper tracks it causes over heating and hy fax wear
R
I ride in the Mt. Adams area, and completely gave up on the groomimg program several years ago. It seems like they only groom the cross country skier trails (which they do frequently), and ignore most all of the sled trails. Sure, in the dead of winter they will groom a few of the popular trails (main FS roads) in the valley, but the skier trails get groomed well into late spring, even on the mountain.
I asked them why they didn't do more of the sled trails - even suggested a few, and the answer was "because the skiers complained more". What good is increasing the fees the snowmobiler pays, when the grooming doesn't fully benefit them?
I also asked the groomer operater about donating directly to their fuel fund several years ago when they were running out, or setting up a donation program, and was told that was not allowed. He said once the money ran out, they had to stop grooming, and could not accept money for it. Nice to read you can donate via the state to a specific area now.
I asked them why they didn't do more of the sled trails - even suggested a few, and the answer was "because the skiers complained more". What good is increasing the fees the snowmobiler pays, when the grooming doesn't fully benefit them?
I also asked the groomer operater about donating directly to their fuel fund several years ago when they were running out, or setting up a donation program, and was told that was not allowed. He said once the money ran out, they had to stop grooming, and could not accept money for it. Nice to read you can donate via the state to a specific area now.
how about nuking grooming and just keep the parks plowed...raise the license fees is going to decrease revenues as there will be less licensing...
[U said:
adamsrider- How many sleds will you register with no snopark plowing and no grooming? Basically, if we lose the program due to insufficient funding or your area loses out - will you still be able to ride? How long before another group "steps in" to fill the void? IMHO, once we lose our trail system, it will be a major hurdle to try and get it back. For an example, the DNR areas around Yakima now need a discover pass - instead of "losing" use, we had our largest use (tow vehicle numbers) last year EVER! Once people got over the idea of paying, most decided it was worth it.
Polar765 stated "one thing you don't hear at the meetings is the trails that are groomed ,not on the list ,the fact that the groomers say get your hours in or you will loose out next year ,they refuse to remove the snow mound blocking the road as the snow melts back ,you either find a way around or ride gravel until you get to snow ,as many riders know a firm packed trail is great for smaller tracks but for deeper tracks it causes over heating and hy fax wear"
- First off, the groomers are required to remove the berm at the end of the grooming season or end of that particular areas snowmobile use, which ever comes first. The contracted groomers can move the berm up the mountain in certain spring weather conditions. The groomers don't have the luxury of grooming to a short track/long track specific set of standards, plus with the weather variations-that is an impossible target. The groomers are private contractors - why wouldn't you want to get as much time as possible when you are trying to eake out a profit? It has been more than a few years since the groomer operators had left over funds - the problem now is insufficient funds in which to finish the season. Hence, this thread. Being as you are in Yakima, the grooming council meetings are now the 2nd Thursday of each month at the El Rincon in Yakima (near 40th and Fruitvale). I encourage you to attend these meetings where there is a chance to bring your concerns to the council and the groomer operators.
rmsled states "It seems like they only groom the cross country skier trails (which they do frequently), and ignore most all of the sled trails. Sure, in the dead of winter they will groom a few of the popular trails (main FS roads) in the valley, but the skier trails get groomed well into late spring, even on the mountain."
-These are funded from separate accounts, ie snowmobile registration fees are not used for x-country ski trails.
MikeM1000 states-"Yes I think that there should be local pay stations to surrounding snow parks that locals can donate to there LOCAL snowpark. I'd drop a few bucks in each trip. And that would make a big diferance over the year.
- Great idea, but vandalism would be a concern, plus how many would actually donate? For the DNR effort, we only got 40% tops, everyone else freeloaded...
Also with plowing. I have seen them plow 2" of snow before. If they go all the way up there's no sence in not plowing but just because it snowed for 10 min doesn't meen they need to plow.
- Most of the plow contractors (usually the grooming contractor) don't live at the snopark, so timing can be a bitch, especially if they are spread out.
And maybe some volunteer studies or groomer observations should be taking in to account and maybe not groom some of the low usage roads as much as high traffic Just a thought.
- A good thought, but the abandoning roads effect is already happening. As for volunteering, nobody seems to want to raise their hands; everybody seems to be volunteering someone else...
Plumnuts stated "how about nuking grooming and just keep the parks plowed...raise the license fees is going to decrease revenues as there will be less licensing... "
We are losing registrations even with the same fees for the last 10 years. We are basically getting to the diehards. With no grooming, who would register a sled - then how would you pay for the parking? An increase in registrations would go a partial way to helping to solve this problem. Frankly, losing the grooming portion would kill access to great riding in my area, and would cause a much greater registration loss state-wide than increasing the fees as proposed.
Bottom line, there should be public grooming committees meeting for each area or county. Also your local snowmobile club should have information about the funding situation. Both of these venues are always looking for volunteers. If you are not active in actually finding a solution (I mean putting in hours, not typing on a computer), our sport will continue to wither and be replaced by other, more active user groups (and they probably won't be motorized!).
The needed funding increase is long overdue, and probably won't go far enough to get us back to where we were even 5 years ago.
Have a great holiday weekend,
Tampico
B
I ride the Tampico area & in addition to registering my sled, I'm also required to purchase a discover pass. Please explain how this isn't a 200% increase in what we used to pay.
Totally separate issues, unfortunately. Your Discover Pass basically pays for recreational use on State Lands. In the case of the Ahtanum, it also pays for the plowing, the grooming still is paid for by your sled registration fees (and the portion of the gas tax that they provide). Another point, if the grooming program would cease to exist, the Discover Pass would still pay for plowing of the DNR winter recreation sites. The plowing will be done by the DNR this year, from what I have been told. By paying the Discover Pass and that supporting the plowing, that amount did go back into grooming. There were fairly large meetings prior to the fundraising/Discover Pass a couple of years ago at the WVFS and Yakima Ski-Bender meetings.
There was a lot of anger upon the implementation of the Discover Pass; the choice was basically we (and all the other rec groups) would have to pay or lose access (yes, DNR has the power to gate off the Ahtanum and other areas). After 2 years of fundraising and 1 year of actually needing the pass, we now have another winter parking area>and we recorded the highest daily use last year. The increase our fees and I will stay away argument seems to be not applicable in the case of the Ahtanum State Forest.
Bottom line, it does cost more to ride the Ahtanum or in areas that have the Discover Pass. That won't go away. Now, Imagine North or Middle fork with no grooming for a season
! If you want to talk groomer issues (late start, not hitting what he says he will, etc) that is a whole different issue. Once again, the Yakima County Grooming Council meets the 2nd Thursday @7pm (November to April) of each month at the El Rincon. The council is an advisory group to the Washington State Parks Department, the agency that holds and enforces the contracts. Everyone is welcome at these meetings. There is also a mechanism through the State Parks website that allows for evaluation of grooming and plowing on a daily basis by recreational users.
Have a great weekend,
Tampico
A
Great idea for ME (even though I still appreciate a decent trail on the way in and especially out after I'm whipped from a day of riding), but bad Idea for the other 3 members of my family. No grooming for my household = 1 sled registration (my sled) and 2 other sleds that get sold and no reg fees paid. WIfe and my 6 and 9 y/o wouldn't go if it was a day full of whoops and moguls.
How much would it decrease reg fees? ALOT I think. There's quite a few people I see out riding on older sleds or trail riding and also quite a few people on real mtn sleds just cruising the trails (like me and my family when we take a family ride).
No grooming is NOT the answer, IMO. Raise the fees. I (and everyone else) already pay through the nose for everything to be graced by the State of Washington's presence, haha. I have NO problem paying more for snowmobiling, but don't get me started about the rest of the state's "fees."
B
Let's cut through all the bull.
How many registered snowmobiles were in Yakima County last year?
What was the sum of the groomers contracts for Tampico, White & Chinook Passes?
How many registered snowmobiles were in Yakima County last year?
What was the sum of the groomers contracts for Tampico, White & Chinook Passes?
That is a interesting question, until you factor in the amount of riding in the Yakima area that come in from out of county (it is substantial; people from the west side riding the Rimrock area, people from the Tri-Cities and Grant, Kittitas, etc counties that ride here). Please note that the grooming problem is statewide, I am only using the Yakima area as an example.
I would think that most areas with grooming get a good deal, since King, Snohomish, Pierce, etc counties have such large numbers with so little grooming area. Kittitas County has such large numbers coming over the pass, and the I-90 corridor such a large program, that they would perceive to have a much larger bang for the buck based on the county numbers. You also have some counties with no grooming, but people have cabins in the popular riding/grooming areas. How do you distribute the numbers? We don't want to add "grooming" based on the number of sleds in each county - imagine a grooming program, say in like Benton County (a no go w/ no snow). As a whole, the south central Washington area has a large % of people coming in from out of the area. But the numbers for this calculation are readily available. It just may take a while to get the time to put them together. Just doing a rough-off-the-cuff (and memory) calc, I think Yakima county alone probably gets a bit of a good deal, whereas Kittitas county alone would be getting a great deal.
Tampico
grooming fund dropping
I can answer part of BBP question. In 2011 there were 1713 reg. sleds in Yakima County. I have some survey results for FYI. The 2012 Washington State Parks Com. Winter Rec. Program Snowmobile Survey, paid for by WSSA.
Area 5, which is Kittitas, Yakima, Benton, and Klickitat Counties, accounted for 32% of the riding in the state, but only accounted for 16% of the snowmobile registered households. Registered households in area 5 totaled 2213. Registered sleds in area 5 is 5827, or 19% of the state.
We have approx. twice as many riders, or usage, coming in from out of area as local users. Luckily it looks like we receive more funding than we are paying locally. I encourage anybody with funding questions, or solutions to attend a Groomer or WSSA meeting, or at least join WSSA to get the monthly Sno-Flyer
paper, or go to WSSA.us. Snowmobile Funding 101, for your 30$ registration fee, the snowmobile program also receives 31.05$ from the DOT for a gas tax refund, approx. 61.05$ for each sled reg..
WSSA a few years back, pursued and received a larger gas tax refund which is currently capped at .23/gl. WSSA is still pursuing the .37/gl. which we are paying at the pump.
Additionally State Parks Winter Rec. {motorised} Program received $110,000 in RCO Grants which was applied for by State Parks. There really is good people working hard for this program.
WSSA
Blue Ribbon
Ski-Bender
Cascade Driftskipper
I can answer part of BBP question. In 2011 there were 1713 reg. sleds in Yakima County. I have some survey results for FYI. The 2012 Washington State Parks Com. Winter Rec. Program Snowmobile Survey, paid for by WSSA.
Area 5, which is Kittitas, Yakima, Benton, and Klickitat Counties, accounted for 32% of the riding in the state, but only accounted for 16% of the snowmobile registered households. Registered households in area 5 totaled 2213. Registered sleds in area 5 is 5827, or 19% of the state.
We have approx. twice as many riders, or usage, coming in from out of area as local users. Luckily it looks like we receive more funding than we are paying locally. I encourage anybody with funding questions, or solutions to attend a Groomer or WSSA meeting, or at least join WSSA to get the monthly Sno-Flyer
paper, or go to WSSA.us. Snowmobile Funding 101, for your 30$ registration fee, the snowmobile program also receives 31.05$ from the DOT for a gas tax refund, approx. 61.05$ for each sled reg..
WSSA a few years back, pursued and received a larger gas tax refund which is currently capped at .23/gl. WSSA is still pursuing the .37/gl. which we are paying at the pump.
Additionally State Parks Winter Rec. {motorised} Program received $110,000 in RCO Grants which was applied for by State Parks. There really is good people working hard for this program.
WSSA
Blue Ribbon
Ski-Bender
Cascade Driftskipper
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Just curious...can anyone tell me what the contract groomers are being paid per hour? Should be at least $200/hr IMO.
Our club gets $110/hr. Groomers are purchased with bank loans, trade-ins, grants & matching funds.
Grooming is done by volunteers & yes, it takes a couple seasons for us to be comfortable letting someone loose without a veteran along.
It takes a sick person to want to groom
. I'd say less than 10% of our grooming is done in the daylight & most of that is because morning came too early.
Our club gets $110/hr. Groomers are purchased with bank loans, trade-ins, grants & matching funds.
Grooming is done by volunteers & yes, it takes a couple seasons for us to be comfortable letting someone loose without a veteran along.
It takes a sick person to want to groom
. I'd say less than 10% of our grooming is done in the daylight & most of that is because morning came too early.
B
Thanks, now we're getting somewhere.
1713 reg. sleds in Yakima Co. x $61.05 = $104,578.65 + $110,000.00= $214,578.65
Now we just need the sum of the groomers contracts for White, Chinook & Tampico.
1713 reg. sleds in Yakima Co. x $61.05 = $104,578.65 + $110,000.00= $214,578.65
Now we just need the sum of the groomers contracts for White, Chinook & Tampico.
M
Ok, i work off statistics, and numbers...
according to 2012, WA has 31,000 registered sleds. Sled registration is $38; so "funds" = $1,178,000...in lamens terms (not taking into consideration the whole gas tax deal).
from what i hear, grooming is roughly 10 weeks with current funding...cant really push it to the 14 like in years past.
10wks/$1,178,000 = $117,800/wk. So, for 14 weeks funding would need to be around $1,649,200. now, consider how many sleds would need to be registered to generate that much funding... $1,649,200/$38 = 43,400 sleds (roughly). Delta 43,400-31,000 = 12,400 NEW sleds.
Since i dont see more sleds being registered with the current economic situation, lets try increasing the registration fee...
if you raise sled registration from 38 to 45, (assuming 31,000 registered sleds) your funding would roughly be $1,395,000...which is about $254,200 short. therefore, sled registration would need to be around $54/sled/yr ($54x31,000 = $1,674,000).
Now, since i like working in round numbers, make the registration $60/yr per sled and your set...NOW throw in the gas tax, which is like a christmas bonus...and your golden.
How come a guy who works works with 2x4's and a drill for a living can figure this out, but lawmakers in oly cant?
http://www.snowmobile.org/stats_registrations_us.asp
http://www.dol.wa.gov/vehicleregistration/fees.html
according to 2012, WA has 31,000 registered sleds. Sled registration is $38; so "funds" = $1,178,000...in lamens terms (not taking into consideration the whole gas tax deal).
from what i hear, grooming is roughly 10 weeks with current funding...cant really push it to the 14 like in years past.
10wks/$1,178,000 = $117,800/wk. So, for 14 weeks funding would need to be around $1,649,200. now, consider how many sleds would need to be registered to generate that much funding... $1,649,200/$38 = 43,400 sleds (roughly). Delta 43,400-31,000 = 12,400 NEW sleds.
Since i dont see more sleds being registered with the current economic situation, lets try increasing the registration fee...
if you raise sled registration from 38 to 45, (assuming 31,000 registered sleds) your funding would roughly be $1,395,000...which is about $254,200 short. therefore, sled registration would need to be around $54/sled/yr ($54x31,000 = $1,674,000).
Now, since i like working in round numbers, make the registration $60/yr per sled and your set...NOW throw in the gas tax, which is like a christmas bonus...and your golden.
How come a guy who works works with 2x4's and a drill for a living can figure this out, but lawmakers in oly cant?
http://www.snowmobile.org/stats_registrations_us.asp
http://www.dol.wa.gov/vehicleregistration/fees.html
B
catzr,you're correct. Using your numbers from area 5, Yakima Co would only get roughly 5.6% of the $110,000
1713 reg. sleds in Yakima Co. x $61.05 = $104,578.65 + $6,160.00= $110,738.65
Now we just need the sum of the groomers contracts for White, Chinook & Tampico.
1713 reg. sleds in Yakima Co. x $61.05 = $104,578.65 + $6,160.00= $110,738.65
Now we just need the sum of the groomers contracts for White, Chinook & Tampico.
Ahtanum, White and Chinook - 2013 $172,680 > 2012 $189,238 these are just for grooming and do not include plowing or sanitation. This is a loss of 8.75% from the previous year, a pretty big hit considering how costs are going up and the bigger hit from the previous year.
Proving my point that this has to be looked at on a regional/where is the riding at type of view. IMHO, we would need to look at the total number of riders that use each area. The DNR does use sensors to record trips down the groomed trails, but this would only benefit the Ahtanum. There are a lot of non-Yakima county riders that use our trails and benefit our local economies.
Looks like the Yakima County Grooming Council is doing a pretty good job of getting more money in than what local sledders put out
.
Bottom line, we either pay more or lose the programs.
Tampico
Proving my point that this has to be looked at on a regional/where is the riding at type of view. IMHO, we would need to look at the total number of riders that use each area. The DNR does use sensors to record trips down the groomed trails, but this would only benefit the Ahtanum. There are a lot of non-Yakima county riders that use our trails and benefit our local economies.
Looks like the Yakima County Grooming Council is doing a pretty good job of getting more money in than what local sledders put out
.Bottom line, we either pay more or lose the programs.
Tampico
S
2011/2012 Season Total = $189,238
Tampico ( Atanum ) $60,337
Chinook Pass $70,112
White Pass $58,789
2012/2013 Season Total = $167,680
Tampico ( Atanum ) $55,058
Chinook Pass $63,977
White Pass $53,645
Loss of $21,558 grooming in this small area alone. This seasons loss followed a similar loss the previous year. This loss was predicted to be greater but the award of the RTP grant ($110,000) statewide reduced the cut.
All groomers took and equal percentage cut accross the state.
Funds are alocated on map miles and frequency.
The state has been predicting these cuts for years unfortunately WSSA has not taken proactive action to prevent these cuts. This inaction has brought grooming to the lowest levels in many years. Now finally WSSA is making an attempt at raising registration fees $10 this next year and $10 the following year ( Total of $20 ) Funds will hit the snow in the 2014/15 season.
We all need to support this increase and work to close the budget gap to keep this program going.
Midwest_Cat and BBP keep asking the questions and attend the local meetings. Join WSSA and take a leadership role, lets keep this program strong and sustainable.
FYI Midwest_Cat the $60 registration fee is what is needed when you do the math. That is what was originally voted on and passed unfortunately a few select members of WSSA leadership took and started an outcry to get a revote. Im just glad they are going for the $10/$10 after several votes. Lets make to support it and work to get the program sustainable.
Join WSSA they are the vessel to keep our program strong and making change. Become an active member and if you can take a leadership role. Casey_K is WSSA membership chair. He is on here often. He has the info to join since some people were having a hard time online. Hopefully he PM you on how to join.
Figures were taken from SMAC (snowmobile advisory committee (Motorized Program)) Budget posted 7/26/2012
Also stated that FY2012 total registered sleds was 28,426 down 9% from FY2011
FY2012 Revenue = $1,705,317 down 8% from FY2011
Tampico ( Atanum ) $60,337
Chinook Pass $70,112
White Pass $58,789
2012/2013 Season Total = $167,680
Tampico ( Atanum ) $55,058
Chinook Pass $63,977
White Pass $53,645
Loss of $21,558 grooming in this small area alone. This seasons loss followed a similar loss the previous year. This loss was predicted to be greater but the award of the RTP grant ($110,000) statewide reduced the cut.
All groomers took and equal percentage cut accross the state.
Funds are alocated on map miles and frequency.
The state has been predicting these cuts for years unfortunately WSSA has not taken proactive action to prevent these cuts. This inaction has brought grooming to the lowest levels in many years. Now finally WSSA is making an attempt at raising registration fees $10 this next year and $10 the following year ( Total of $20 ) Funds will hit the snow in the 2014/15 season.
We all need to support this increase and work to close the budget gap to keep this program going.
Midwest_Cat and BBP keep asking the questions and attend the local meetings. Join WSSA and take a leadership role, lets keep this program strong and sustainable.
FYI Midwest_Cat the $60 registration fee is what is needed when you do the math. That is what was originally voted on and passed unfortunately a few select members of WSSA leadership took and started an outcry to get a revote. Im just glad they are going for the $10/$10 after several votes. Lets make to support it and work to get the program sustainable.
Join WSSA they are the vessel to keep our program strong and making change. Become an active member and if you can take a leadership role. Casey_K is WSSA membership chair. He is on here often. He has the info to join since some people were having a hard time online. Hopefully he PM you on how to join.
Figures were taken from SMAC (snowmobile advisory committee (Motorized Program)) Budget posted 7/26/2012
Also stated that FY2012 total registered sleds was 28,426 down 9% from FY2011
FY2012 Revenue = $1,705,317 down 8% from FY2011
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