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Got the call, seized PTO piston, no oil!

H

HOOCH256

Well-known member
Jan 5, 2008
1,357
318
83
39
Kalispell, MT
Well they just called cat is going to warranty it and said that it was either oil pump failure or they air locked! Said it should be up and running in no time!


Sent from my super duper sweet iPhone using Tapatalk when I should be doing something productive!
 
V
Nov 26, 2007
193
19
18
What heat cycling is everyone talking about? That is an old process for iron bore cylinder sleeves in a cast aluminum cylinder. No heat cycling is going to save a motor with no oil. Especially a Nickasil cylinder.
 
F
Nov 18, 2011
1
43
13
The answers you are all waiting for....and some comments.

Cause of failure: lack of oil. Please refer to the attached photos of a fuel sample being taken from the M8 in question sitting next to a sample mixture of 100:1. If the first tank was 100:1, there probably wouldn't have been an issue. Also included is a photo of what a piston looks like when it seizes due to a lack of oil, yes this is the piston out of the M8.

A couple of members posting seem to think that because we didn't sell this sled that we are putting off the repair and suggesting that it wouldn't be covered under warranty. This repair is definitely not being put-off. Let’s get something straight, this is how we make a living. However, let’s not forget about the 40 other people that have already made appointments and are also waiting for their machines to be completed. Based on certain posters’ criticism of our implied lack of enthusiasm to immediately crack into this; I would truly love for you all to be our service customers due to the fact that when I bump your repair down the list in favor of someone else’s whose just arrived, I will have complete and total confidence that you will totally understand why YOUR job is going to take even longer to complete! You sir’s, are a service manager’s wet dream of a client…..the mystical white unicorn if you will. Regardless, the motors out, tore down, and parts were ordered 2 days after it arrived. Now, as far as warranty goes.....well that actually isn't my call. The factory has the final word on what they will cover and what they won't. So, if anyone ever bothered to read the very first page in the little book that comes with a new sled titled "Operator's Manual", you will notice a list of items that will VOID the warranty. #1) Failure to perform proper break-in procedure....etc..etc....skip to item # 3) use of improper fuel mixture ratio. From a dealer perspective, these were all conditions that were met that would effectively void the warranty, so if you ask me if Arctic Cat will cover this, my initial answer is going to be no. Just because that's my answer doesn't mean I am not going to call and ask, but I am certainly not going to be fraudulent to the manufacturer about the cause. Arctic Cat has no obligation to cover this repair based on what is stated in the limited warranty. We made the phone call and explained the situation and Arctic Cat, like always, stepped up with their outstanding warranty and took care of it. This is indeed not a manufacturer problem, nor a tolerance issue, nor a “heat cycling” issue…..It’s a lack of oil issue. You are right that some dealer’s may only add 2 gallons of 100:1 and not add additional oil and expect the customer to do that. You are also correct that some dealers may not bleed the pump and rely on the 100:1 fuel mixture. That’s not how we do it here. Ever. Ask questions to your dealers, talk to your service departments and read your operator’s manual to save yourselves the hassle of this stuff happening. A little preparation goes an enormously long way.

sample1.jpg sample2.jpg seize1.jpg seize2.jpg
 
H

HOOCH256

Well-known member
Jan 5, 2008
1,357
318
83
39
Kalispell, MT
I thank you for the photos and fast service on my sled and never once did think I was going to be thrown under the bus, when I came in and dripped it off I was told Wednesday before you could get to it, and then you get to it within days which I was overly pleased! I quill agree there are people on here that were more then happy to throw you guys under the bus! I have spent a great deal of money with you guys, hence buying a 13k motorcycle



Sent from my super duper sweet iPhone using Tapatalk when I should be doing something productive!
 
S
Sep 25, 2011
123
30
28
Yup. no oil for sure. Narly looking skirt. I wish people would get off this "heat cycling" kick. It's not necessary, and counter productive to a proper break-in.
 
S

samiams2

Well-known member
Nov 14, 2009
1,341
524
113
MN...stupid poser flatlander
Cause of failure: lack of oil. Please refer to the attached photos of a fuel sample being taken from the M8 in question sitting next to a sample mixture of 100:1. If the first tank was 100:1, there probably wouldn't have been an issue. Also included is a photo of what a piston looks like when it seizes due to a lack of oil, yes this is the piston out of the M8.

A couple of members posting seem to think that because we didn't sell this sled that we are putting off the repair and suggesting that it wouldn't be covered under warranty. This repair is definitely not being put-off. Let’s get something straight, this is how we make a living. However, let’s not forget about the 40 other people that have already made appointments and are also waiting for their machines to be completed. Based on certain posters’ criticism of our implied lack of enthusiasm to immediately crack into this; I would truly love for you all to be our service customers due to the fact that when I bump your repair down the list in favor of someone else’s whose just arrived, I will have complete and total confidence that you will totally understand why YOUR job is going to take even longer to complete! You sir’s, are a service manager’s wet dream of a client…..the mystical white unicorn if you will. Regardless, the motors out, tore down, and parts were ordered 2 days after it arrived. Now, as far as warranty goes.....well that actually isn't my call. The factory has the final word on what they will cover and what they won't. So, if anyone ever bothered to read the very first page in the little book that comes with a new sled titled "Operator's Manual", you will notice a list of items that will VOID the warranty. #1) Failure to perform proper break-in procedure....etc..etc....skip to item # 3) use of improper fuel mixture ratio. From a dealer perspective, these were all conditions that were met that would effectively void the warranty, so if you ask me if Arctic Cat will cover this, my initial answer is going to be no. Just because that's my answer doesn't mean I am not going to call and ask, but I am certainly not going to be fraudulent to the manufacturer about the cause. Arctic Cat has no obligation to cover this repair based on what is stated in the limited warranty. We made the phone call and explained the situation and Arctic Cat, like always, stepped up with their outstanding warranty and took care of it. This is indeed not a manufacturer problem, nor a tolerance issue, nor a “heat cycling” issue…..It’s a lack of oil issue. You are right that some dealer’s may only add 2 gallons of 100:1 and not add additional oil and expect the customer to do that. You are also correct that some dealers may not bleed the pump and rely on the 100:1 fuel mixture. That’s not how we do it here. Ever. Ask questions to your dealers, talk to your service departments and read your operator’s manual to save yourselves the hassle of this stuff happening. A little preparation goes an enormously long way.

Well if what u say about how u do business is true, then I would pay a little mOre to wrk with a dealer like urself. All the dealers within 100 miles are all idiots who don't know anything and act like it is a giant hassle to even sell me their parts at full retail, I can't imagine if I "BURDENED" them with something like a warranty claim or expected anymOre than bare minimum setup on a new sled. That's why I order all mu parts from Michelle, and when i buy i call around, find the lowest price and worry about warranty when it happens. 90% of my riding is out west and I am dealing withlocal dealer there anyway(and I ride a cat so normally don't need warranty ;) ).

Sorry for the rant and getting off topic. Point is, Fasttoys, good to hear of someone doin old fashion good business.
 
C

catweasel

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2010
221
136
43
Jackson, WY
www.jacksonholeargo.com
Glad to hear it is getting fixed. Quick question though. The dealer states there was no 100:1 premix. By the photos, I believe him. Who dropped the ball on the premix? If it had been in the sled, would it have saved it from the sieze?
 
C

catweasel

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2010
221
136
43
Jackson, WY
www.jacksonholeargo.com
Finding a good dealer is hard. When you find one, work with them exclusively. They will give good service and will get to know you, your riding style and your sled. Roger Judd is the only one who has EVER touched one of my sleds. He knows me, my sled, how I like to ride and does a damn good job.

Also, I guess a word to the wise is, read your owners manual no matter what and follow it to a T, no matter what a dealer, your best friend or even your mama says. If something fails and you have followed the manual/break in procedure to the letter, it will validate a warranty claim.

Hooch, sounds like the dealer making the repair is good one. I would never go anywhere else. :)
 
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H

HOOCH256

Well-known member
Jan 5, 2008
1,357
318
83
39
Kalispell, MT
Here is my reason for not going to them....when the pc8 was released I wanted to snow check on really bad! So I called every dealer within 500 miles to compare prices and they were all about the same! Called said dealer above everyday for a week and talked to a sales man and left my name and number everyday and said I wanted to snow check and I had cash in hand sales man never got back to, and I work out of state and don't get much time off so I couldn't go in to see the owner who sold me my bike and sells me all my gear and was never in when I called! So after a week of calling everyday talking to said sales men I gave up and went to the next closest dealer! Do I regret this? Yes a lil bit, and I explained this to the tech when I went in! I also always take any repair work I've had in the past to this dealer and will continue in the future! And after this lil incident I will be buying all future sled from fastoys! It's lil things like this that tell you who a good dealer is!


Sent from my super duper sweet iPhone using Tapatalk when I should be doing something productive!
 
S
Nov 30, 2007
924
115
43
51
cda, idaho
pre mix oil

so i'm confussed, you have to premix your first tank 100:1, ok sounds fine, but why do you not have to do this with every tank of gas then? blah blah blah oil pump sends oil to motor, blah blah blah...so should that take place everytime...if said part works, then why all the extra oil?

my blah blah blah comments were the nitty gritty, a plus b =c ....not to concerend on the how and why just wondering why you don't have to do it with every tank of gas...
 
H

HOOCH256

Well-known member
Jan 5, 2008
1,357
318
83
39
Kalispell, MT
Because these are new motors new pumps so on and so forth, and it's common place for the pump to not get bleed all the way, so the premix will allow it run if there is an air bubble in the oil line! Dealer that's doing the repairs told me that even if there is oil pump failure the 100:1 mix will allow the sled to run for the remainder of the tank!


Sent from my super duper sweet iPhone using Tapatalk when I should be doing something productive!
 
S

samiams2

Well-known member
Nov 14, 2009
1,341
524
113
MN...stupid poser flatlander
When sled is assembled, there can be a tendency to have some air in the lines/system. Oil lines coolant lines blinker fluid loaned, etc. first tank of premix provides a safety net while any air works its way out of the system.

I'm typing on my iPhone WHILE cleaning carpets so it took me like 10 min so someone else has probably already answered. Oh well.
 
C

catweasel

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2010
221
136
43
Jackson, WY
www.jacksonholeargo.com
Every M Cat I have ever had, if I remember right, had the same beak in proceedure. Why do you not have to do it after the break in proceedure? On break in, you are doing just that, breaking in the crank, pistons, seating the rings, etc... A little extra oil helps and if there are bubbles in the oil line, it can save the engine.

After break in, the oil pump injects oil into the engine and a mix is not necessary. Prior to oil injected engines, you did mix the oil and gas at a much higher ratio. You still do in some of the smaller outboard boat engines and other 2 strokes, like weed eaters etc....

Trust me, oil injection is much better than having to mix it..... :)
 
R

Red-eye

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2008
1,342
328
83
Sparwood, B.C. Can.
So if you roll the sled over, is there a possibility of an air bubble getting in the line and should you immediatly put oil in the fuel tank?? Just a thought.
You buy a 13000 dollar machine and they cant make an oil pump with a return line so it doesn't get air bubbles.....Nice!
 
I

Insaneboltrounder/sjohns

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2007
3,560
1,181
113
63
so i'm confussed, you have to premix your first tank 100:1, ok sounds fine, but why do you not have to do this with every tank of gas then? blah blah blah oil pump sends oil to motor, blah blah blah...so should that take place everytime...if said part works, then why all the extra oil?

my blah blah blah comments were the nitty gritty, a plus b =c ....not to concerend on the how and why just wondering why you don't have to do it with every tank of gas...

Have you read anything about this at all???? :kev:
 
G

Going West

Well-known member
Nov 30, 2007
1,212
643
113
Canada
Having to put oil in the gas for the first tank has been standard for all manufactures since as long as I can remember. This is nothing new. So no one needs to start freaking out. This has already been blown out of per portion already.
 
4

440dart

Well-known member
Jan 5, 2008
1,306
167
63
37
montana
So if you roll the sled over, is there a possibility of an air bubble getting in the line and should you immediatly put oil in the fuel tank?? Just a thought.
You buy a 13000 dollar machine and they cant make an oil pump with a return line so it doesn't get air bubbles.....Nice!



Finally somebody who thinks with a lil common sense how many times have we rolled our sled fired them up rode them all day. The air bubble syndrome is BS. Think with your dipstick jimmy:whip:
 
V

volcano buster

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2007
4,222
1,615
113
Stayton Oregon
I'm guessing that if you roll your sled, the supposed air bubble that you may be trapping in the inlet of the feed tube should be able to rise up in the oil tank before it gets pulled into the oil line to never be released again. The oil doesn't move very fast in the lines. If you get the bubble further down the tube or between the pump and the motor then it is likely to travel through the system until it is burped into the motor.
 
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