Engine damage when stinger fails on stock pipe

[hivoltagesledhead]

This is what happens when the internal stinger falls off on a doo stock pipe...
Found the broken ring keeper pin in the bottom of my crank case and the broken piston piece went thru the turbo. The omly damage to the turbo is a that some of the exhaust fins have little burrs on the ends of them. None of them are missing or broken.
I dont know what this means in terms of running the turbo other than a little loss of performance due to missing surface area on the fins.

Not bad for a sled with less than 300 miles on it.....

 

[studsrsx]

My internal stinger broke loose right off the get go but didn't know. Had the almost identical thing happen. You think I could get the thing jetted for anything. This causes all kinds of weird tuning issues imo.

 

[badass1000]

I don't see how the stinger failing could have caused the engine damage. sounds like they just happened at the same time. locater pin came out, ring caught a port and tore off part of the piston.
As far as the turbo. If it is as you described I would just take some sand paper or a dremel and clean up the fin's. It will not be optimal, but I bet you don't even notice the difference.

 

[hivoltagesledhead]

The ring locator pin was on the mag side piston and the pto side was the piston with the broken piece. 2 different problems that occurred at the same time. Both show extreme heat from the underside but no burndown from the top.
From what I understand,if the stinger is broken it changes the tuning of the pipe and can cause back pressure to build up that leads to detonation which would explain the damage.
Also,with the stinger broken and not knowing it,trying to jet for any reason becomes useless as the pressure/heat/flow in the pipe is always inconsistent.
One second you are lean,the next you are rich.You run with the choke half on then off then on then off.....it idles...it doesnt...det sensor on and off.
No doubt in my mind that this is the fault of the stinger bouncing around inside the pipe.

 

[theshadowrider]

Let this be a lesson to all turbo XP's and something the turbo builders could recommend to you up front. If you are going to spend $5,000.00 on a turbo kit then spend another $350.00 and get a turbo pipe. This is another turbo xp going down because of a failed stock pipe. They did not fail at the same time, the pipe caused this damage to your motor. My brother, skyking, sled looks the same as yours. I know bryce and josh will disagree, but I am convinced that his sled went down because of the failed stock pipe.(And continuing to drive it) Not sure exactly why, but something with back pressure and temps causes this. His pistons look the same as your as well as a failed ring that went through his turbo. Very simple fix is, don't run the stock pipe with a turbo. Not blaming anyone, just a valuable piece of info that $350.00 would of saved $1500.00 down the road. So, if you are reading this and thinking about putting a turbo on your xp, just plan that into your cost and buy a turbo specific pipe that will hold up to the boost. Secondly, if your pipe ever fails, shut it off and get the tow rope out to save your motor. If we would have done this then we wouldn't be waiting on cylinders, pistons, new turbo!

 

[badass1000]

I understand the tuning issues when the stinger falls out. sucks to be chasing your tail and not knowing what is going on.
I started from day one with a cpi turbo pipe. the weld seam on the outside cracked after a few days and then the inside seam cracked after a few more days. I had all the welds gone over by the welder/fab guy I use. header wrap it, and use a couple good stainless hose clamps over the fat section of the pipe. no more problems or cracks all of last year or this year. I pulled all the header wrap off at the begining of this year to check for cracks and didn't find any. then put the header wrap back on and it fell all apart filling the engine compartment with fibers. Do not re wrap a pipe with the same header wrap. if you take the header wrap off throw it away and put new stuff on.

 

[hivoltagesledhead]

U r right...maybe not failed at the same time...but definately failed due to the stock pipe and continuing to ride it and trying to jet for a problem you dont know exists. Even if you ride with the stock pipe and have the stinger removed you will eventually be chasing cracks,broken seams and bad welds...BUY A TURBO PIPE......CASE CLOSED.

It is amazing how many people have come out of the woodwork about this issue since it was first posted a couple of weeks ago.
Definately would have been good info to have months or even a year ago.

People will suit themselves...but if you can afford the turbo...you can afford the pipe....otherwise you may as well have a spare engine kicking around. The pipe is still cheaper then the engine parts you will have to replace.

How is Skykings sled running now?

 

[studsrsx]

Did you get a pipe from Neil? What did he charge you by chance.

 

[hivoltagesledhead]

I did get a pipe from Neil. It was $900 CA including ceramic coating and tax.Shipping extra. Pretty much a G by the time it was delivered,but warrantied for life.

 

[theshadowrider]

How is Skykings sled running now?

He is still waiting on parts. He is having the cylinders re-coated, new top end, and having his turbo rebuilt.

 

[hivoltagesledhead]

He is still waiting on parts. He is having the cylinders re-coated, new top end, and having his turbo rebuilt.

Must have done some major damage to the turbo.

 

[theshadowrider]

If it is as you described I would just take some sand paper or a dremel and clean up the fin's. It will not be optimal, but I bet you don't even notice the difference.

IMO this is a bad idea. You are going to cause it to be out of balance and that thing is spinning at 100,000 rpms your bearings are not going to last long. You need to send off your hot section of your turbo and have it rebuild. Its hard to see the inner portions of the blades. I bet they are damaged more than you think. It probably just completely took out the inner tips so it looks like its not bad, but in all actuality some portions of the blades are missing. Give these guys a call.

http://www.atpturbo.com

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

We will see how the stock one with the removed stinger and the welded seems hold up..

definately hoping we dont have any issues like this. glad to at least have the stinger out, some cracks are annoying, but nothing to get worried about, but the stingers coming loose and sending metal throught the turbo, and causing strange backpressure is bad news.

 

[badass1000]

IMO this is a bad idea. You are going to cause it to be out of balance and that thing is spinning at 100,000 rpms your bearings are not going to last long. You need to send off your hot section of your turbo and have it rebuild. Its hard to see the inner portions of the blades. I bet they are damaged more than you think. It probably just completely took out the inner tips so it looks like its not bad, but in all actuality some portions of the blades are missing. Give these guys a call.

http://www.atpturbo.com

I have personally owned and know others that have had their compresor side of the turbo damaged from not runing a filter on drag bikes. Like I said. It is not optimal, but I did not notice a difference in e.t. or mph in the 1/4. if you don't notice it then you sure as hell will not notice it on a snowmobile. ran it that way for several years with no problems.
If you send it in now or send it in when the bearings go out you are still going to need a new center section. Cost the same amount of money. I would run it now since winter is short and don't want to be down any more then you have to. If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside send it in the summer to be rebuilt or just buy a new center section yourself and bolt the houseings on.

 

[hivoltagesledhead]

The fins dont look too bad. It is only 3-4 that are damaged...but I see your point about the balancing. Worse case I could just replace the compressor wheel,but ,I think I will just run as is for now.

 

[nuttyn01]

turbo after stinger failure

sorry to hear about all of the misfortune due to the pipe and stinger failures. The stock pipe will work fine but it has to be reinforced and the stinger has to be removed. Put some pics of my turbo after the stinger failure last year. It looked fine until you removed the exhaust housing from the turbo. I ran the turbo like this last year half of the season and the bearings were fine when i went to get the center section rebuilt.

FYI...pm me on a source for a screaming good deal on the garrett BB turbo exchange program for a new center section.

 

[brycter]

Let this be a lesson to all turbo XP's and something the turbo builders are not telling you up front. If you are going to spend $5,000.00 on a turbo kit then spend another $350.00 and get a turbo pipe. This is another turbo xp going down because of a failed stock pipe. They did not fail at the same time, the pipe caused this damage to your motor. My brother, skyking, sled looks the same as yours. I know bryce and josh will disagree, but I am convinced that his sled went down because of the failed stock pipe.(And continuing to drive it) Not sure exactly why, but something with back pressure and temps causes this. His pistons look the same as your as well as a failed ring that went through his turbo. Very simple fix is, don't run the stock pipe with a turbo. Not blaming anyone, just a valuable piece of info that $350.00 would of saved $1500.00 down the road. So, if you are reading this and thinking about putting a turbo on your xp, just plan that into your cost and buy a turbo specific pipe that will hold up to the boost. Secondly, if your pipe ever fails, shut it off and get the tow rope out to save your motor. If we would have done this then we wouldn't be waiting on cylinders, pistons, new turbo!

I just counted up the total turbo kits sent out since 2008 when we put this xp kit out to market. We have sold 301 to date. in place's like norway, japan, sweden, bc, canada, and all over the usa. That being said the track record has been very good. I bet there has been only 10 percent that has had a problem. I know that this is not 100% great. but imo it is very good considering the nature of the beast.

I am pretty sure if this was a common problem then we as a company would be addressing it with every one of our customers. there is a list a mile long of could be a problem's with any turbo sled. Am i being dishonest? I hope not if i am i will close up shop today. that is the last thing that i want to be known as is dishonest. (we have seen that enough around here) We work very hard everyday to bring a product that will bring joy to our customers. We are very very sorry if you feel the other way.

I don't know why there is a couple of you guys all of a sudden having this problem. I wonder if it is because the weld inside the pipe have become brittle because the oil gets into the weld then heats up and expands breaking the weld?
Is it because the pipes are just getting old?
Is it because the vibration inside the pipe from sound ressonance and pressure?
is it because more heat in the stinger?
is it because added weight on the end of the pipe and the pipe is flexing?
do we need to put a waste gate before the stinger in the pipe.?
Is a pipe exchange the way to go with stingers out?
would it be better to weld the turbo to the pipe?
is the exhaust flow just pounding the end. then having to change directions causing a vaccume effect when stinger is hot?

Can you see what it takes to disect these problems?

We have had more tunning issues with aftermarket pipes then the stock one's hands down. i have one customer that decided to go after market turbo spec pipe that ordered 3 different one's just to get he sled to pull the right rpm's. ask me if he was mad? i had that dang sled for a month (spit, fart growl)


I watch these threads almost everyday hopping to learn and progress the market. We are not turning a blind eye and not thinking that we know everything. We are humble enough to be taught. We will start addressing this issue more and let the customer know it could be a potential problem. I don't think it is happening at an alarming rate yet. But it could and it will be happening with the etec's also if it turns out to be a big problem.

we appologize for any misleading info that has came from us or our company.

My name is Bryce and you may call me at 801-807-8046 if you would like.

 

[theshadowrider]

I just counted up the total turbo kits sent out since 2008 when we put this xp kit out to market. We have sold 301 to date. in place's like norway, japan, sweden, bc, canada, and all over the usa. That being said the track record has been very good. I bet there has been only 10 percent that has had a problem. I know that this is not 100% great. but imo it is very good considering the nature of the beast.

I am pretty sure if this was a common problem then we as a company would be addressing it with every one of our customers. there is a list a mile long of could be a problem's with any turbo sled. Am i being dishonest? I hope not if i am i will close up shop today. that is the last thing that i want to be known as is dishonest. (we have seen that enough around here) We work very hard everyday to bring a product that will bring joy to our customers. We are very very sorry if you feel the other way.

I don't know why there is a couple of you guys all of a sudden having this problem. I wonder if it is because the weld inside the pipe have become brittle because the oil gets into the weld then heats up and expands breaking the weld?
Is it because the pipes are just getting old?
Is it because the vibration inside the pipe from sound ressonance and pressure?
is it because more heat in the stinger?
is it because added weight on the end of the pipe and the pipe is flexing?
do we need to put a waste gate before the stinger in the pipe.?
Is a pipe exchange the way to go with stingers out?
would it be better to weld the turbo to the pipe?
is the exhaust flow just pounding the end. then having to change directions causing a vaccume effect when stinger is hot?

Can you see what it takes to disect these problems?

We have had more tunning issues with aftermarket pipes then the stock one's hands down. i have one customer that decided to go after market turbo spec pipe that ordered 3 different one's just to get he sled to pull the right rpm's. ask me if he was mad? i had that dang sled for a month (spit, fart growl)


I watch these threads almost everyday hopping to learn and progress the market. We are not turning a blind eye and not thinking that we know everything. We are humble enough to be taught. We will start addressing this issue more and let the customer know it could be a potential problem. I don't think it is happening at an alarming rate yet. But it could and it will be happening with the etec's also if it turns out to be a big problem.

we appologize for any misleading info that has came from us or our company.

My name is Bryce and you may call me at 801-807-8046 if you would like.

Brycter I see your point in its hard to predict all possible problems with a 2 strokes even more with a turbo. I re-read what I wrote and didn't mean to accuse you off something you are not or come across that way. I fixed the post to say more of what I was trying to. I would recommend an FYI to future customers of possible problems with stock pipes and possibly recommend aftermarket, or modding stock pipe for strength to help reduce the number of sleds going down because of a relatively simple problem. 10% seems small number but 30 seems like quite a few. IMO now that you have quite a few kits out there it would be nice to have a list of possible problems/solutions that could arise and recommendations. This may help reduce "those" phone calls you get as a builder . For example, stock pipe issues, just like how you address the bellows issue. Seems the stock xp pipes are built super weak. Now they are getting a couple years old, depending how much riding and type of storage, I think you might start to see more failures and problems with the stock pipes due to rusting issues. Skykings had quite a bit of rust on his pipe and I am sure that did not help the integrity of the pipe. What aftermarket pipe maker do you recommend, if you do?

 

[Bendy]

I have a CPI pipe and its been great. It does what I want it to do. Sled runs great. Don't know about other manufacturers pipes as far as tuning?

 

[nuttyn01]

pipe

I have a cpi also...works well. You need to make sure you get the turbo specific pipe from cpi.