Boondocker "Sidekick Auto"

mtn-doo

Well-known member
Feb 26, 2004
1,315
660
113
Kalispell, Mt
I have a question if the boost level is changing to maintain a horsepower setting starting at 5 pounds when it modulates up to 10 or so to maintain horsepower at higher elevation won't the fuel need to change with boost. Wouldn't you need higher octane at higher boost then be over octane at lower boost affecting the throttle response?

Excellent question. This is a piece of the equation a lot of folks don't fully understand. Initial thoughts are if I pump 10 lbs of boost in your engine, you have 10 lbs of pressure total. That is not the case. "ISA" or International Standard Atmosphere is 29.92 inches and 14.7 lbs. We are all walking around in and breathing 14.7 psi every day. That's quite a bit of pressure. When we add 5 lbs through the aid of a turbo, the engine is now seeing a total of 19.7 lbs. As you climb in elevation and/or temperatures rise your atmospheric pressure drops from standard of 14.7 to ......? Depending on elevation.

In the case of the Sidekick Auto, It is using Electronic Boost Control to replace the lost atmospheric pressure. Here is an example of the standard atmospheric pressure at 14.7 + 5 psi is 19.7. Once you get to 6000 ft it will drop to 11.8, the EBC computer wants 19.7 so it will add 6.9 psi to achieve 19.7
That is how it makes constant hp at all elevations.

You can also see how it is pump gas friendly. You are good on pump gas to just under 20 psi total. ISA plus 5 psi of boost is 19.7 total.

Also on our modern gas / turboed cars and trucks, they run 91 pump gas. EBC is the current boost technology that has made our vehicles operate so perfectly under boost.

Great question.
 

JJ_0909

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2009
1,023
1,030
113
Excellent question. This is a piece of the equation a lot of folks don't fully understand. Initial thoughts are if I pump 10 lbs of boost in your engine, you have 10 lbs of pressure total. That is not the case. "ISA" or International Standard Atmosphere is 29.92 inches and 14.7 lbs. We are all walking around in and breathing 14.7 psi every day. That's quite a bit of pressure. When we add 5 lbs through the aid of a turbo, the engine is now seeing a total of 19.7 lbs. As you climb in elevation and/or temperatures rise your atmospheric pressure drops from standard of 14.7 to ......? Depending on elevation.

In the case of the Sidekick Auto, It is using Electronic Boost Control to replace the lost atmospheric pressure. Here is an example of the standard atmospheric pressure at 14.7 + 5 psi is 19.7. Once you get to 6000 ft it will drop to 11.8, the EBC computer wants 19.7 so it will add 6.9 psi to achieve 19.7
That is how it makes constant hp at all elevations.

You can also see how it is pump gas friendly. You are good on pump gas to just under 20 psi total. ISA plus 5 psi of boost is 19.7 total.

Also on our modern gas / turboed cars and trucks, they run 91 pump gas. EBC is the current boost technology that has made our vehicles operate so perfectly under boost.

Great question.

I said I'd stop commenting in this thread but I can't help it. The misinformation is crazy.

Nothing wrong with running an EBC ("closed loop" system). In a lot of ways, for a number or riders, its super rad. A few of the other companies offer both open loop (mechanical boost control) and electronic. A few only open, and a few only closed. All can work!

However, while in theory what Mtn Doo says is correct, he's wrong about a few things...

1) It is not universally safe to run 5psi at sea level on pump gas. In fact, that is complete BS. If you pull gobs of timing and can keep charge temps down with really good pump gas, MAYBE. Otherwise, no way. I've been around a number of turbos from a number of brands. Especially with this motor, 5psi @ sea level is not pump gas territory.

2) The idea that the EBC just magically adds boost to make up for lack of ambient air pressure is only partially correct. Remember, the air being compressed is thinner at higher elevations. This means the compressor has to spin faster. Faster = more heat. More heat = higher chance of det and less power. Especially without an intercooler. This is why good automobiles with turbos often turn boost *down* at elevation. (my WRX for instance). Its a heat thing. This is why EBC isn't as magical as everyone claims. There are so many variables in this equation, and there are limitations, especially when the EBC isn't able to tie into the ECU to see a lot of the other important variables (such as charge temp)... (see why piggyback isn't all the rage?! ;) )

3) A motor at 5psi at sea level is going to feel very different than a motor at 10 psi at 10,000 feet. Even if our MAP is similar. Again, compressing thinner air = compressor has to spin faster/longer to achieve this MAP.

4) 11.8+6.9 does not equal 19.7.

I can go on, EBC is cool for sure, but for most people its going to be something more awesome when talking on the internet than actual riding in the field. Silber offers it, but in real world application it really isn't as notable as it would appear on paper...
 

nuttyn01

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2007
811
220
43
Sioux Falls, SD
????

Question for you? Is the ecm on a ski doo 850 manufactured to understand boost like your WRX or Ford Ecoboost product? So hypothetically you crack a pipe or melt a charge box, will the ECM know that you have lost boost, or will it stay in a map based on tps? We cracked a charge box on a mpi and it still ran flawless, just lost rpm's.



I said I'd stop commenting in this thread but I can't help it. The misinformation is crazy.

Nothing wrong with running an EBC ("closed loop" system). In a lot of ways, for a number or riders, its super rad. A few of the other companies offer both open loop (mechanical boost control) and electronic. A few only open, and a few only closed. All can work!

However, while in theory what Mtn Doo says is correct, he's wrong about a few things...

1) It is not universally safe to run 5psi at sea level on pump gas. In fact, that is complete BS. If you pull gobs of timing and can keep charge temps down with really good pump gas, MAYBE. Otherwise, no way. I've been around a number of turbos from a number of brands. Especially with this motor, 5psi @ sea level is not pump gas territory.

2) The idea that the EBC just magically adds boost to make up for lack of ambient air pressure is only partially correct. Remember, the air being compressed is thinner at higher elevations. This means the compressor has to spin faster. Faster = more heat. More heat = higher chance of det and less power. Especially without an intercooler. This is why good automobiles with turbos often turn boost *down* at elevation. (my WRX for instance). Its a heat thing. This is why EBC isn't as magical as everyone claims. There are so many variables in this equation, and there are limitations, especially when the EBC isn't able to tie into the ECU to see a lot of the other important variables (such as charge temp)... (see why piggyback isn't all the rage?! ;) )

3) A motor at 5psi at sea level is going to feel very different than a motor at 10 psi at 10,000 feet. Even if our MAP is similar. Again, compressing thinner air = compressor has to spin faster/longer to achieve this MAP.

4) 11.8+6.9 does not equal 19.7.

I can go on, EBC is cool for sure, but for most people its going to be something more awesome when talking on the internet than actual riding in the field. Silber offers it, but in real world application it really isn't as notable as it would appear on paper...
 

JJ_0909

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2009
1,023
1,030
113
Question for you? Is the ecm on a ski doo 850 manufactured to understand boost like your WRX or Ford Ecoboost product? So hypothetically you crack a pipe or melt a charge box, will the ECM know that you have lost boost, or will it stay in a map based on tps? We cracked a charge box on a mpi and it still ran flawless, just lost rpm's.

Good question. There absolutely are limitations to what a powersports ECU is capable of, but most would be shocked to see how capable they really are. After all, remember, its just a computer! The Ski-Doo ECU is far *more* capable than most however (its "smarter" - looking at more variables, more often)

I don't want to reveal the secret sauce to how Justin build's his maps, as that'd be in a way like giving away the recipe to Coca-cola in the 20s.

However - with that said - the map doesn't really see "boost", it sees MAP (among other things). Whatever the MAP is and whatever the trends are, it responds accordingly. If MAP drops substantially (say if you cracked a charge tube or something), it will still run. But just like in a stocker, there isn't quiet enough programming for the ECU to stop the sled all together if its not right and throw a code. In theory, it could evolve to this place, but its not there yet. Basically think of it like this - if something happens that'd cause the stocker to throw a code, the same will remain with a turbo. But it won't look for "additional things" to throw a code over...

You can think of this setup as being more akin to an open loop race car that was dyno tuned. (which still is something tuners do - especially when the car didn't have a turbo to start).

There is a lot of fertile ground with what can be done with the factory ECU - a lot of that only limited to how good of a programmer you have working along side you. I don't want to go any further here as to reveal some of the plans Silber has, but I hope that helps see how it works and see where it came from.
 

madmax

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Nov 26, 2007
3,980
2,364
113
I have a 2016 corvette stingray and I supercharged it to almost 600 rear wheel horsepower 598 on the Dyno, used stock ECM and stock injectors, no piggy back controller. I drives, runs, responds and sounds like absolutely stock until you get into the boost, again it's all stock Dyno tuned ecm. I would not want a piggy back controller on that car. I have a question if the boost level is changing to maintain a horsepower setting starting at 5 pounds when it modulates up to 10 or so to maintain horsepower at higher elevation won't the fuel need to change with boost. Wouldn't you need higher octane at higher boost then be over octane at lower boost affecting the throttle response?

Trying to compare a 16’ corvette to a 2-stroke sled is now where near the same argument.
Personally, I do not like having no access to my fuel control. Whether it’s the boondocker sidekick, silber reflash or my 1100t 4-strokes. I would just like a way to personally tune my ride, no two sleds ever run the same. I love my boondocker sidekick, is it exactly what I want, no, but runs perfect day in and day out.
 

mtn-doo

Well-known member
Feb 26, 2004
1,315
660
113
Kalispell, Mt
I said I'd stop commenting in this thread but I can't help it. The misinformation is crazy.

1) It is not universally safe to run 5psi at sea level on pump gas. In fact, that is complete BS. If you pull gobs of timing and can keep charge temps down with really good pump gas, MAYBE. Otherwise, no way. I've been around a number of turbos from a number of brands. Especially with this motor, 5psi @ sea level is not pump gas territory.

4) 11.8+6.9 does not equal 19.7.

Sorry you had to write all of the issues about running 5 psi at sea level. In the kit information pkg you will see it is a 5K and above kit. Not a sea level kit. ISA at 29.92 and 59F are International standard values to make an explanation and example to the gentleman who was asking.
Thanks for the fat finger 6 instead of 7. ! Irreverent to the point being made however.

Yes, EBC and TPS systems are super nice to ride for sure. You should spend some time on the new system and then share your first hand experiences with video etc. That would be great!

Did you say earlier that you work for Silber?
 

JJ_0909

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2009
1,023
1,030
113
Sorry you had to write all of the issues about running 5 psi at sea level. In the kit information pkg you will see it is a 5K and above kit. Not a sea level kit. ISA at 29.92 and 59F are International standard values to make an explanation and example to the gentleman who was asking.
Thanks for the fat finger 6 instead of 7. ! Irreverent to the point being made however.

Yes, EBC and TPS systems are super nice to ride for sure. You should spend some time on the new system and then share your first hand experiences with video etc. That would be great!

Did you say earlier that you work for Silber?


Then your math is wrong bro. You were saying the thing runs at a MAP of 19.7. This is flat wrong.

Also, do you not see the irony of touting ECB as the ultimate in running consistency but then noting it only works from 5,000 on up? From 5,000 feet to 10,000 feet there is a pressure differential of about 2psi. Its substantial for sure, but for most people, going from 6 to 8K in a day (like me) its like 1 psi, if that.

That's what i meant by EBC is awesome in theory, but in practice its not as dynamic as we all wish, nor as important. I don't mean to sh@t on your review, just point out its not some revolutionary end all be all to the turbo game. I used to think it was too until I did the math and played with a few. Its cool, but usually goes under the "i didn't notice it" category. Those in places like BC will have more of a use for it - but then again, they start under 5K...

Anyway... see why I had to chime in? A lot of what you are saying is flat wrong, and could use some better articulation.

Edit, just to show the math...

atmospheric pressure at 5K = ~12.2 psi. Let the turbo add 5 psi to that you get 17.7psi. That is roughly 3psi more than sea level (14.7). Yes, you can run about 3 psi at sea level on pump gas (though you still have to pull timing and have good pump gas - and if charge temps creep you can still have issues...but more on that later).

BD can target 17.7psi at all elevations above 5,000 feet. As I was saying however, for most people, that'll mean adding 1ish psi back to the system. EG, at 7,000 feet the difference is about 0.9psi from 5,000 feet. (12.2 vs 11.3)
 

mtn-doo

Well-known member
Feb 26, 2004
1,315
660
113
Kalispell, Mt
Then your math is wrong bro. You were saying the thing runs at a MAP of 19.7. This is flat wrong.

Sigh.......That was an "example". My quote is; "Here is an example of the standard atmospheric pressure at 14.7 + 5 psi is 19.7".

Any way. Sorry folks for all of that..... moving on.
 

mtn-doo

Well-known member
Feb 26, 2004
1,315
660
113
Kalispell, Mt
Thanks madmax. That is the experience. Runs perfectly day in day out. It's nice to just pull the rope and ride a turboed sled that runs perfectly every day.

Here's a couple more pic's for everyone. The air box has some specially designed features that improve efficiency, velocity and throttle response. That in part, is why the throttle response is so quick on this system. Also the aluminum is super quick and efficient in conduction heat. That aids in heat dissipation over other materials that have an insulation value that retain the charge air temperature.

If you have any specific pic's you would like to see, please let me know!

Thanks
 

Attachments

  • BD 8.jpg
    BD 8.jpg
    187.4 KB · Views: 68
  • BD 6.jpg
    BD 6.jpg
    218.5 KB · Views: 82

JJ_0909

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2009
1,023
1,030
113
Sigh.......That was an "example". My quote is; "Here is an example of the standard atmospheric pressure at 14.7 + 5 psi is 19.7".

Any way. Sorry folks for all of that..... moving on.

Sorry - Didn't mean to get that wrapped up in it. It very much is my job to at least make sure facts are straight.

Like I said way back when, I'm very certain the BD stuff is kick butt! Not going to say it sucks or anything of the sort! Just want to make sure we are all on the same page...that way I don't get phone calls suggesting someone heard the BD kit can run 5psi on pump at sea level (yes, its already happened...)
 

JJ_0909

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2009
1,023
1,030
113
Personally I wouldn’t be surprised if the EPA gets involved with Silber reflashing the ECU for their kits. Seen it a number of times in the industry with other manufacturers changing the manufacturers certified EPA fuel tuning. But that’s a whole other issue.

I would like to see a pump gas turbo shootout. Bring your 850, drain all the gas out. All sleds fill up at the same pump, no fuel additives. Silber, MPI, boondocker, turbo perf, would be a fun day.

If that happens we'll lose turbos across the board. Changing the factory map is no different than piggybacking on to of one to make an all new map.
 

Chadly

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Aug 28, 2013
1,266
1,694
113
Bothell, WA
I'd way rather listen to a really rich guy who throws money at sleds like its nothing for an opinion than a couple of guys who rub shoulders or even worse work with companies who make turbo kits for the sleds. This thread is almost as bad as the big bore guys fighting like a little bunch of school girls :face-icon-small-dis
 
Dec 3, 2017
41
8
8
Yes I understand big difference between superscharged v8 4-stroke and a turboed two stroke. A few years back I had a pro-mod, turboed 1397 hyabusa in a mini rail making 600 horsepower at 45 pounds of boost running on alcohol. It had a piggyback controller and I could never get it dialed as soon as I'd get close temps would change, fog would roll in, moisture would absorb into the fuel, on and on. It seems like the fuel controller that takes into account the most sensors and ambient conditions and adjust the map as needed would be ideal. A smart controller ? The one on that busa of course is now 15 years old and obsolete. The day will probably come when your downloading a free smartphone app that comes with the turbo you purchase to set up parameters or change tweak maps. I'm now just want to ride not tune and I can't even do that we have literally no snow to ride. Worst start to a season in 20 years.
 

mtn-doo

Well-known member
Feb 26, 2004
1,315
660
113
Kalispell, Mt
Chadly, well said ! Over the years I've seen it get so bad about 1/2 of the members 10 years ago are gone. Folks spend all day trying to pick fights or destruct an opportunity for good communication. It's sad. Hopefully we can provide pictures and information for folks to enjoy in a constructive way.
 

inspector01

Well-known member
Mar 21, 2013
379
298
63
MN
The "ground breaking technology" is Electronic Boost Control working simultaneously with TPS. Not the control box itself. lol

That is one of the many parameters that I can set, so although its great to have available for sleds, it is technology thats decades old in other applications.

Also the aluminum is super quick and efficient in conduction heat. That aids in heat dissipation over other materials that have an insulation value that retain the charge air temperature.

How does that work? I doubt aluminum piping will be able to dissipate much heat out of air flowing at a few hundred CFM under load, it could however do a good job heatsoaking and warming intake air at low load.
 
Premium Features