2008 Dragon with Carls 860, new top end, now it won't start... HELP

[sledhed]

next step is "new " stator!

Or new sled... toying with the idea of a leftover 2015 but RMS is out of the RMK 155 without electric start (8390 for the non-ES version)...

 

[sledhed]

Today...

Today I took apart all the connectors (again) and examined them closely, the only doubts I have is where the harness connects to the ECU from the stator and injector wiring. Very hard to see in to those tiny pin holes. And since I had been pushing a bent paper clip in there to test wiring it makes me wonder if that created an issue.

Does that connector some apart somehow?

I also removed the throttle bodies and clipped off a zip tie which was holding the lower injector wiring very tightly to the lower fuel rail, thinking maybe it was grounding something that shouldn't be, maybe. Examined those wires and they looked good to me. The lower injector wires were never spliced like the upper ones were, as far as I can see using a mirror, and there were no worn spots on the wires.

Of course put it back together and no start...

Had a chance to buy a parts Dragon complete less blown engine for $1200 but someone beat me to it. Drat.

 

[diamonddave]

It sounds like you have 2 problems:

1) Stator is bad.

2) Possible wiring/connection issue causing the 7 injector blink code.

SledGuy brought up an important possibility. Could you have spliced the injector wiring incorrect? That would allow the ECU to energize the incorrect injectors which 'could' contribute to a no start. This shouldn't cause the 7 blink code you are having though since the resistance between the injectors is the same. It sounds like there is an intergrity issue in the wiring or possibly an open injector. However, it sounded like you had stated that you had backprobed the 4 injector circuits.

I have a stator from a 2010 Dragon that I parted out that only has 322 miles on it. If you're interested.

I think you have a bad stator. I have seen 1 Dragon that had a 7 blink injector code that ultimately required a stator to fix.

The relay's will not cause a no start.

I played with those 860's back in 08-09. learned quite a bit.

 

[diamonddave]

If you have another Dragon close by, regardless of year 2007-2010, try swapping the ECU and Voltage Regulator before doing anything else and report back.

We are just trying to start the engine. Don't worry about the mapping in the borrowed ECU.

Also, can't remember if you have a Power Commander or any other brand of fuel controller. If so, remove that also for testing/diag.

 

[sledhed]

It sounds like you have 2 problems:

1) Stator is bad.

2) Possible wiring/connection issue causing the 7 injector blink code.

SledGuy brought up an important possibility. Could you have spliced the injector wiring incorrect? That would allow the ECU to energize the incorrect injectors which 'could' contribute to a no start. This shouldn't cause the 7 blink code you are having though since the resistance between the injectors is the same. It sounds like there is an intergrity issue in the wiring or possibly an open injector. However, it sounded like you had stated that you had backprobed the 4 injector circuits.

I have a stator from a 2010 Dragon that I parted out that only has 322 miles on it. If you're interested.

I think you have a bad stator. I have seen 1 Dragon that had a 7 blink injector code that ultimately required a stator to fix.

The relay's will not cause a no start.

I played with those 860's back in 08-09. learned quite a bit.

I bought a replacement stator off of ebay from a parts place in eastern WA. No change in no-start condition, and both stators ohm'd out as ok (no guarantee I know it could be bad too).
When I rewired the upper injector (1 injector wire was intermittent and it was pto upper cylinder, according to digital wrench at the time) I only rewired the 1. I checked the others with ohmmeter and they checked out fine. I wrote down the wire colors before splicing that injector wiring so I am 99% sure I got it right.

If you have another Dragon close by, regardless of year 2007-2010, try swapping the ECU and Voltage Regulator before doing anything else and report back.

We are just trying to start the engine. Don't worry about the mapping in the borrowed ECU.

Also, can't remember if you have a Power Commander or any other brand of fuel controller. If so, remove that also for testing/diag.

I put my ECU into a running dragon and it ran fine. Plugged his spare VR into his sled and started it up and all systems on his sled still normal. Put that VR and my ECU into my sled, still no start. No power commander since it is a carls 860 reflash.

 

[diamonddave]

I bought a replacement stator off of ebay from a parts place in eastern WA. No change in no-start condition, and both stators ohm'd out as ok (no guarantee I know it could be bad too).
When I rewired the upper injector (1 injector wire was intermittent and it was pto upper cylinder, according to digital wrench at the time) I only rewired the 1. I checked the others with ohmmeter and they checked out fine. I wrote down the wire colors before splicing that injector wiring so I am 99% sure I got it right.


I put my ECU into a running dragon and it ran fine. Plugged his spare VR into his sled and started it up and all systems on his sled still normal. Put that VR and my ECU into my sled, still no start. No power commander since it is a carls 860 reflash.

Remember that just by ohm checking your stator(s) doesn't always tell the whole story. There are 2 engine speed sensors on those assemblies that can malfunction as well.

I would still replace the stator, check the flywheel closely.

 

[sledhed]

Remember that just by ohm checking your stator(s) doesn't always tell the whole story. There are 2 engine speed sensors on those assemblies that can malfunction as well.

I would still replace the stator, check the flywheel closely.

What would I be looking for when checking the flywheel? I did look it over a bit and cleaned some (most) of the schmutz off of it using alcohol...

When checking the stator, I also checked the leads to the pickup coils and they ohm'd out correctly as well. The same as my original stator. However I do agree that ohms don't tell the whole tale. If I had a stator that came off a running sled I would be guaranteed it was good but that is a hard part to "borrow" off someone else's sled... a lot to ask. I guess I can throw some bigger $$ at it and buy a new one, but if that does not fix it I will have 3 stators and a non-running sled...

Any way to check the connections to the computer from the engine harness? The big orange one that the injectors and stator inputs and outputs go to. I was thinking I could get a fried ECU and cut it apart and check the connectivity of the pins... but that might not be doable...

I could order a set of used red fuel injectors with harness off ebay (there is one set there but red is rare). Replacing them would be fun (the lowers in particular look fun, top are easy).

Has anyone ever had the injectors loose and fuel pump unplugged to see if you can see the injectors opening / closing when pulling over engine? Or any other diagnostics you can think of that I have not done? Any way to check voltage pulses to the lower injectors while pulling it over? Or check pulses coming in to the ECU from the engine speed sensors? Will an analog or digital VOM do that?

 

[cascadesnowjunky]

How could it be the stator when it runs when you dump fuel in the cylinders. I would be looking at the fuel system and electrical associated. If you have good fuel pressure then it is injectors, injector wiring or Ecu.

 

[sledhed]

How could it be the stator when it runs when you dump fuel in the cylinders. I would be looking at the fuel system and electrical associated. If you have good fuel pressure then it is injectors, injector wiring or Ecu.

I know what you are getting at and in part I agree, but the crank position sensors help the ECU decide when to squirt fuel and also there are separate coils in the stator for generating electricity to fire the injectors (as I read the stator wiring diagram in the service manual), so if either one of those fails... no fuel. The 2 crank position sensors read a different pulse "ring" if you will since they are offset from each other (one is closer to the PTO side of hte motor than the other), one is a 5-pulse, the other a 2-pulse if I recall correctly. However I do not know if the 2 crank position sensors both, or which one, tells the ECU when to fire injectors and which or both tell the ignition coils to fire. The ignition coils are firing (after all my switching around I am going to check that again tonight with fuel in the spark plug holes). So it could possibly still be the stator.

However my next two steps are:
1. Replace complete fuel tank assembly with one from a friend's running 08 Dragon 800 (that is really nice of him to do that for me)
2. Replace complete fuel injection rail assembly and wiring complete with injectors (which I just ordered off eBay since it came off a running sled).

Even talked to Chris at Carls Cycle performance department today and he is thinking fuel system too but considering all I have swapped already he is going to think about it some more and ask around the shop there and possibly get back to me with more ideas...

Still would like to know if the TPS fails completely, if that would cause a no-start, no-one seems to know for sure.

 

[Angermangement890]

Have you physically checked that the injectors are opening when voltage is applied?

Take a 9 volt battery and pin each injector, they are a simple circuit, apply power to one side and ground the other. Have a fried physically put their hand on the injector, when its powered you will physically be able to feel the injector open. If the injector doesn't open when power is applied directly, they are junk. Replace them and go ride!

I ran into this when I had some injectors cleaned, the tech accidentally ran the tests in reverse (mineral spirits 1st, then a water based cleaning solution) I wound up with injectors that rusted shut due to the water based solution rusting the injectors. Luckily I was able to source new injectors for $60 so it was pretty cheap, but boy did it drive me NUTS.

 

[PaulAnd]

Or prime fuel system and open injector manually from post above.. pressure drop test..
Watch fuel pressure gauge
You should see the same drop
From all injectors w/same on time
A shorted injector or cicuit could cause the computer to
shut off pulse/ ground to injector?

 

[sledhed]

Thanks guys, this is my next set of things to try...

 

[sledhed]

I got the complete injector wiring harness with red fuel injectors Friday in the mail, today I hooked up all the "new" wiring but not the fuel, laid it on top of the engine (plugs out and grounded), put some WD40 in the lower injectors (since they are the ones that fire at idle), put about 40psi into each one in turn using the compressor and had my wife pull it over. And I got a spray pattern out of them! So if I use this new harness and injectors I should be getting fuel into the engine, as long as fuel pump and new filter are working right.

The lower injectors are way down under the throttle bodies down by the oil pump, I hope I can replace them without killing myself, and maybe get it started today, if that wiring and/or injectors were the problem.

I can do the same test on my old injectors and wiring harness and see if they spray too, if they do then it is something else in the fuel system... but at least I would eliminate that problem and narrow it down!

 

[sledhed]

It’s alive!

That was a job and a half without removing the engine, but got it done...

New blink code – 2 blinks – engine temp sensor – reads 1.5K ohms, should read 2.4 to 2.6K ohms. But the manual says 68 degrees, measure in stirred water... my engine was somewhat warmed up, just less than lukewarm head to the touch. And I was getting NO readout on the dash for temperature. checked the wiring.

I’ll take a 2-blink over a no-start any day of the week...

Now I have to start putting parts back... that should take a few days... *L*

Have to go back to the original fuel pump since the one in it is a loaner...

 

[sled_guy]

Yay!!!!

I just had the 2 blink on the 860 I am working on. The temp sensor appeared fine, but no temp reading on the dash. And at time the thing could be a bugger to start. Put a new temp sensor in it, blinks went away, starts easy, temp reading on dash.

sled_guy

 

[sledhed]

Yay!!!!

I just had the 2 blink on the 860 I am working on. The temp sensor appeared fine, but no temp reading on the dash. And at time the thing could be a bugger to start. Put a new temp sensor in it, blinks went away, starts easy, temp reading on dash.

sled_guy

sled_guy, that is great to know, going to borrow one of these from a Dragon riding friend also to make sure it cures it (and not a wiring problem), the buy a new one if it does...

It is very strange I had all these problems in a row - bottom injectors worked fine but top one had a problem, sled idled fine. Fix wiring to top one (not used during idle), then runs on one cylinder and dies and won't restart without putting fuel into plug holes. Substitute almost everything else, no luck. Replace complete harness with injectors, took 3 or 4 tugs after priming the fuel pump with 12 volt supply, but it runs and sounds right now, but now the engine temp sensor is out of spec? I am starting to suspect a voltage regulator issue cascading into other problems... maybe I should buy a new (updated part number) VR just in case and replace it. Cheap insurance?

 

[sled_guy]

Well at $165 it isn't exactly cheap, but I understand your thinking.

Just got through putting a new VR and computer on the 860 I have in the shop. It was the original VR, went bad, killed computer.

If you have one of the original VRs then I would HIGHLY recommend you replace it with the updated one... the updated ones have a protection circuit in them that keeps them from frying the computer.

sled_guy

 

[sledhed]

Well at $165 it isn't exactly cheap, but I understand your thinking.

Just got through putting a new VR and computer on the 860 I have in the shop. It was the original VR, went bad, killed computer.

If you have one of the original VRs then I would HIGHLY recommend you replace it with the updated one... the updated ones have a protection circuit in them that keeps them from frying the computer.

sled_guy

According to Babbits part online:
4013587 - new VR part number ($135)
4011731 - old VR part number

I have 2 VRs at home, one I had bought used as a spare, one on the sled that I pretty sure has been replaced before, I will check the part numbers on both...

I am sure it would be more $$ at the local dealer than Babbits (but no shipping of course) so I will make sure I need one before I buy it...

EDIT:
The VR in my sled currently is 4012930. Is that the old, new, or something in between?

According to this thread from 2010 it is an updated VR?
http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246241

 

[sled_guy]

4013587 - This is the latest one. Supposedly won't fail, but I've had one fail on a customer's sled, didn't kill the ECU.
4011731 - This is the original one. If you have this one, don't use it. When it fails it will kill the ECU.
4012930 - This is the 2nd version, I have had 3 of them fail on customers' sleds, none killing the ECU though.

sled_guy

 

[sledhed]

4013587 - This is the latest one. Supposedly won't fail, but I've had one fail on a customer's sled, didn't kill the ECU.
4011731 - This is the original one. If you have this one, don't use it. When it fails it will kill the ECU.
4012930 - This is the 2nd version, I have had 3 of them fail on customers' sleds, none killing the ECU though.

sled_guy

Thank you sled_guy, this is useful information. Sounds like the 4012930 is at least "safe" for the rest of the electronics (that is in my sled now), and the 4011731 is something I could throw in my sled tunnel bag as a spare... just in case I need something temporary to get me out of the woods... I see where there is now a cheaper aftermarket VR replacement for this part number, but I saw at least one reference to it going out and frying someone's ECU... I think that was in HCS forums...