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Completely unsubstanciated rumor...

C

CBX

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Jan 21, 2008
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I don't beleive that is the case.

http://www.snowmobile.com/events/worldwide-sled-sales-lowest-in-16-years-1026.html

While 1997 was the most recent spike, it was almost 50% of record sales in the early 1970's when snowmobiling was at it's historic peak.

1971, 495,000
1972, 460,000
1973, 450,000
1974, 435,000
1975, 316,000


1997, 260,000

2008, 163,753

2009, 147,066

Don't you suppose price of the machines maybe has something to do with that?

you can pretty well expect 2k usd minimum tacked on the current price for the etec option.

Seems to me alot of gas and oil can be bought for that.

Not only that replacement pistons are going to be way way expensive too. They are not the run of the mill piston. Etec isnt going to be a good deal for us.
 

christopher

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Its certainly not going to help with the cost of purchasing a new sled.
But one one or the other, I don't see any way around it coming. I would think it's only a matter of time.
 

Gros Chien

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would it be substanciated if a dealer goes to his clients and say ''we''ll have a 800R ETEC for you to try this winter and hopefully as a demo so we can have more of you guys to try it'' :rolleyes:
 

Gros Chien

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Oh! so it's a non-release-release mid-season :confused: too complicate,,,,,,,, IMO it's a release as soon as it will be at the dealerships, and 3 of them in my area are talkin about 1 or 2 machines per dealers this winter.
 

BIG JOHN

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Once they get it properly mapped, it should be a nice engine to turbo.

Turbo the SDI = nightmare on Elm street
Turbo a Etec = bigger nightmare on Elm street

IMHO- with Cats new motor at 160 hp...and the 600 Etec losing 8 hp vs the SDI 600 and adding 15 lbs:(...the 800 etec has its WORK cut out for it:eek: ...IMHO its a trail motor NOT for the MXZ/Summit crowd:cool:-BJ
 

winter brew

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Turbo the SDI = nightmare on Elm street
Turbo a Etec = bigger nightmare on Elm street

IMHO- with Cats new motor at 160 hp...and the 600 Etec losing 8 hp vs the SDI 600 and adding 15 lbs:(...the 800 etec has its WORK cut out for it:eek: ...IMHO its a trail motor NOT for the MXZ/Summit crowd:cool:-BJ

I have to agree with the dyno-sheetless flatlander ;).....they have the 800R working good with a simple, lightweight carb setup that is easily adjusted for mods...ETEC is not something I am looking forward to. Even the Cat and Poo EFI setups that have been around for many years still have lean/rich spots (stock), inconsistant running and are sensitive to even the most minor mods like air intake and lightweight silencers.....then it's $300 for a control box vs changing a $2 jet. :beer;
 

christopher

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I wonder just how much more life the carbs have left in them with the exhaust standards getting tighter and tighter.

It seems pretty much like a forgone conclusion one way or the other.
 
T
May 25, 2008
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Im gonna agree with the dyno sheet-less flatlander and the clutch guy. Im not looking forward to etec a bit. Its not a hotroders setup. Its a system that was developed to meet the epa BS and that is all its good for imo.

Carbs have plenty of life in them if the green police would get off the manufactures back and let them do their job.

Heres a question for you. Ride a Polaris, Cat and carb Doo side by side all day in the same conditions. What are the fuel consumptions like?

Why do we measure emissions at some fictional, never used throttle position and rpm?? Its this idiotic method of testing that has brought us billions of dollars worth of junk R&D. Etec can go in that list as far as Im concerned.

Ill take carbs as long as they are produced. After that I want throttle body injection.

Jake
 
S
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I agree with you Jake. I had a cat running efi and that EFI system is so primitive compared to what EFI should be. Now that I am on a DOO with carbs my sled runs even better than my cat ever did at all different elevations. Proper carb set up works very well and can be made to run very clean.

I was all for the etec because I thought the direct injection would pave the way for some power gains like it has in some of its other applications(like some autos). Now I could care less if it makes it to the 800.
 

mrquick68

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i am curious to hear about the fuel delivery issues with the DI in sleds as cars (like my Audi 2.0 TFSI motored A4) runs like a raped ape for a little turbo 4-cylinder. Its chipped as well, and with just the chip is making 292lbs/ft of torque at low engine speeds. of course weight isn't as much of an issue with cars, but i do know that the advancement of DI on cars works extremely well with turbos as the fuel can be shot in at the very last moment (no detonation issues) so much higher compression ratios and boost levels can be used with no ill effects, which allows for the throttle response and snappiness of a naturally aspirated motor w/ ability to handle the same or even increased boost levels. in addition, crusing fuel usage is way down as well. Explain how an Audi RS4 w/ its DI 4.2L V8 can make 420HP, spin to 8000rpm and still get 23mpg on the freeway, and still rip off 0-60 runs in 4.2sec? The car weighs 3650lbs!? Impressive.

I think DI kicks ***, but perhaps it has a tough time combined with 2-stroke technology (fires twice as many times at a given RPM) and the necessity for lightweight-ness?

All this being said, Cat's had EFI on sleds for 15 years now and they keep getting better every year, but they still aren't any better performing than the carbs on our 800r - the difference between a 2005 cat EFI system and the 2010s is pretty impressive though, as they continue to add more and more advancements in programming even without the addition of sensors (well, it has pipe temp sensor now). EFI is the future on all sleds (like it or not) and though the 800r combined with carbs is awesome and overall performs better than most EFI setups. Unfortunately, it has a shelf life and has probably run its course. It is the last carb left in a sea of EFI.
 
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Gros Chien

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I second that 100%. Even though the DI systems you're referring to, are 4 stroke applications, the technology is there and all that was needed was to improve it for the 2 smokes rotax. I'm hearing good feedbacks from the people that have tried the new engine,very snappy throttle respond, more power(beleive it or not) and better fuel efficiency. We'll all find-out this winter ;)
 
T
May 25, 2008
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Ya, Im interested to see the new DI motor. I guess we will have to deal with it.

The fuel delivery issues have to do with pulse length as far as I know. Your car spinning 8k fires fuel at the rate a two stroke fires at 4k. So spin the car to 16k and see what happens with the fuel system...

With that being said, im sure that Rotax will put out a nice package that is 170 horse or less. Thats just dandy until we want to make more than that. Then what? We have a system filled with technology that is stressed to the max to produce stock output? I hope not, but I know what the limitations were a year and a half ago and I dont think the wheel has been reinvented.

I guess we will see how everyone feels when its been out a year...Maybe Doo will sell me a chassis, bare motor with no head and nothing else??? LOL

Jake
 

mrquick68

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DI and turbos are a match made in heaven IF (BIG "IF") enough fuel can be provided. The problem with sleds using DI is mostly to do with the lack of fuel pressure needed to optimize the injector pulse to a short enough length. My car's fuel rail runs at about 2600psi. To make more than 260HP in the 2.0 TFSI motor, a new HO fuel pump is required. no we are taking about a 2 stroke making a considerable of power (151+) and no where near the ability (yet) to make that kind of fuel pressure. In fact, i believe ETEC uses the pressure created in the cylinder in conjuction with a "voicecoil" like device to get fuel pressures up to around 600psi locally at each injector. 150+ HP is definitely taxing the ability of the ETEC technology. I think that the envelop is being pushed with this much fuel demand per cylinder but that time/engineering power/etc is definitely working towards a solution.

as an aside: Yamaha is producing two-stroke outboards as well with more "conventional" means of producing high pressures - a belt driven HO fuel pump. Wondering if they will begin producing two-stroke sleds again? that would be cool in my book. This style is much more condusive to aftermarket power adders than the ETEC technology though.

wondering if we are going to see "ride by wire" on sleds soon too!? Crazy times.

with direct inject, the use of the throttle plate is a lot less necessary. I'm definitely curious to see where all this new (well new to us) technology leads too.
 
T
May 25, 2008
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One other tiny issue with DI two strokes...two strokes were designed around the idea that a relatively cool fuel/air mix is blasted through the bottom end. Under boost this becomes extremely important and Etec doesnt do it.

Jake
 

mrquick68

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good point Jake. does the cooled 800r case help with this problem at all?

Perhaps the solution to building a turboed XP ETEC will be auxiliary non-direct injectors in conjuction with DI. Much like the Lexus IFS V8 which uses both methods...
 
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BIG JOHN

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Ya, Im interested to see the new DI motor. I guess we will have to deal with it.

The fuel delivery issues have to do with pulse length as far as I know. Your car spinning 8k fires fuel at the rate a two stroke fires at 4k. So spin the car to 16k and see what happens with the fuel system...

With that being said, im sure that Rotax will put out a nice package that is 170 horse or less. Thats just dandy until we want to make more than that. Then what? We have a system filled with technology that is stressed to the max to produce stock output? I hope not, but I know what the limitations were a year and a half ago and I dont think the wheel has been reinvented.

I guess we will see how everyone feels when its been out a year...Maybe Doo will sell me a chassis, bare motor with no head and nothing else??? LOL

Jake

Please stop smok'n funny cigarettes...if/when a Etec800 comes out look for 145-150 hp and little room for mods...much less a turbo...sorry, it is what it is...BJ

BTW- any/all 4S DI talk is IRRELEVANT to this thread...again, sorry but thats a fact too...
 
T
May 25, 2008
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Haha I dont get it BJ, I think I said 170 OR LESS didnt I? Do you not believe technology exists for a 170 horse 800 from the Rotax people or something? Ya, I think it will be somewhere around the 150 mark but what if they go after Cats claim? Just covering my arse.

I agree that DI is going to suck for the aftermarket. Oh well, thats just how it goes.

Jake
 
T
May 25, 2008
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good point Jake. does the cooled 800r case help with this problem at all?

Perhaps the solution to building a turboed XP ETEC will be auxiliary non-direct injectors in conjuction with DI. Much like the Lexus IFS V8 which uses both methods...

I think the cooled case probably does help. But enough?? Doubt it for big outputs.

Auxillary injectors have been the attempt so far. But that is riddled with a new line of problems because of dual fuel systems. So far no one has been able to integrate the two and have a single fuel control operate both systems. That will be the key.

Ive come up with a couple different management systems to try when we get this turd dumped on us. Hopefully we can get something to work.

Jake
 
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