FOR THOSE THAT MAY WANT TO POWDERCOAT THE ENTIRE PRO CHASSIS

mountainhorse · Nov 22, 2010

There are some people out there that may want to powdercoat the entire PRO-RMK/Assault/RUSH chassis.

Powder coating is, ironically, baked at 400 degrees F.... which is the approx "release" temp of the adhesive used in boding the PRO Chassis.... Lord 406/19 Acrylic adhesive.

This MAY be OK because of the additional bolts used in construction of the bonded components that will keep the assembly from moving during the baking process.

The essential part of the puzzle here is that the assemblies are not really moved or jarred while heated and before they come back to normal temps and that the entire assembly is well supported.

Powder Coating after Bonding with LORD® 400 Series
Acrylic Adhesives

The LORD® 400 series acrylic adhesives have excellent heat resistance characteristics up to 400°F (204°C), reducing the concern of possible degradation of the cured adhesive due to heat during the powder coating process. (There is data for heat resistance at 400°F [204°C] up to 1000 hours.)

However, it is important to keep in mind that at these higher temperatures, the hot tear strength is very low. The lower strength values make it essential that the assembly is properly fixtured or placed to avoid slippage of the bonded pieces, especially if they are heavy in nature. Spot welds are frequently used in the industry to hold the assembly in place.

The integrity of the bond will remain unchanged, and in fact increase, once the assemblies have returned to room temperature.

A frequently asked question is “Why does the adhesive look orange/tan in color after exposure to heat instead of the light green we are accustomed to seeing after normal room temperature cure?” This color change can typically occur because of the higher temperatures seen during typical painting and E-coat processes.

The integrity of the bond after either one of these processes should remain unchanged, and in fact increase, once the assemblies have returned back to room temperature.

LeftField · Nov 22, 2010

Its not just the glue...

Common aluminum alloys (6061, 2024, etc) have a heat treatment process (precipitation hardening) that is usually in the 350F-375F temperature range. If you heat the chassis to 400F you will be messing with the structural integrity of your sled.

Maintaining strength of the alloys is one of the big reasons for using glue instead of welding - the heat affected (weld) zone loses its strength properties.

jas123 · Nov 22, 2010

LeftField said:
Common aluminum alloys (6061, 2024, etc) have a heat treatment process (precipitation hardening) that is usually in the 350F-375F temperature range. If you heat the chassis to 400F you will be messing with the structural integrity of your sled.

Maintaining strength of the alloys is one of the big reasons for using glue instead of welding - the heat affected (weld) zone loses its strength properties.

this was brought up in similar post by myself and others. http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177894

mountainhorse · Feb 23, 2011

You bring up a very important point!

Looking at my ASM handbook & "Metallurgy of the Light Metals" on aluminum there are some very interesting stats on over-aging on lightweight parts at the elevated temps common in Powder Coating.

Plus, with the different cast components from Pace (bulkhead halves side plates) will have very specific structural properties related to heat and aging I would assume.

It would be very difficult to find out the composition of the alloy used in the castings. (If not impossible... that kind of information is pretty well guarded)

I've seen engine blocks (800ves) motors have durability issues after being powder coated and have heard of some failures of 7129 alloy used in the suspension rail extrusions. (Which is why I prefer Type III HC anodizing on my rails to PC)

With all of the highly engineered chassis systems in our sleds today... eg. structural bonding, casting, specific alloy construction... It would be best to err on the side of caution IMO.

The 2 part Isocyanate catalyzed Urethane paints along with proper prep on the chassis would be the best way to go IMO... the durably of these paints as proven on commercial aircraft, military vehicles etc has been awesome... a bit pricey... but definitely more safe in regards to the strength of the chassis.

This is a great topic on it's own

... Lots of people with truck rims, motorcycle frames/wheels as well as other components that they want to customize... best to look at the properties of the aluminum in more global perspective when these items are considered for coating.

My brother-in-law, a power transmission engineer with extensive background in transmission design and cast structural member implementation for Chrysler Motors, has told me of failure problems with X-members, diff housings and transmission cases that have been powder coated and that he recommends paint process in engineered aluminum structures.

The repair procedure for the cast/bonded parts from Polaris has the tech heating the components to +400F to release the adhesive... I'm wondering what kind of effect that could have on the structural integrity of the chassis.

diamonddave · Feb 23, 2011

Maybe I should speak with your Bro-Inlaw....I could tell him what else is happening with Chrysler's.

mountainhorse · Jul 15, 2011

TTT for that time of the year when peeps are considering their summer projects.

ONLY the best powdercoaters with good holding fixtures and low temp powders with shorter bake times should even be considered...

IMO... a good high tech urethane like U-Tec or some of the boat paints would be the best choice...

OR...

Vinyl tunnel graphics like those from ArticFX, Brap and others on the forums here.

cr187 · Aug 4, 2011

Are u just talking about the chassis or the tunnel too?

AKSNOWRIDER · Aug 4, 2011

cr187 said:
Are u just talking about the chassis or the tunnel too?

the heat will affect both.....

WyoBoy1000 · Aug 4, 2011

Isn't there some options for lower heat powder coating.

druchti · Aug 4, 2011

What do you guys think about anodizing it? ..would this wrk..im not positive on how it works but i thought it had to do with electricity rather than baking...would this damage any of it...ive realy been wanting to make my tunnel and bulkhead black but with what you guys are saying about powder coating i think that is ganna be out of the question for me

mountainhorse · Aug 5, 2011

Good point Wyo..

I'm not sure on the durability of the lower temp pows...but I hear there are some very durable.

That is the best bet.... on the pro ... even at 350... you would need to fixture the chassis assy.

More than the powder itself... having a powdercoater that you absolutely trust not to over temp or over bake (time) your aluminum parts is key.

mountainhorse · Aug 5, 2011

Type III hardcoat anodize would be the way to go.. prep is key...clean clean clean.

Type III will shed ice and snow very well as it fills in the porosity of the metal and is super hard (about 65 rockwell). Finding someone with a tank big enough would be a challenge... cost would not be too bad.

Type I or Type II, IMO, not worth doing.

Type III is usually only avail in Gun Metal Grey to Black color.

WyoBoy1000 · Aug 5, 2011

mountainhorse said:
Type III is usually only avail in Gun Metal Grey to Black color.

That sounds promising and Gun metal would be sweet!

I thought I heard a guy telling me once that there where some Powder Coats that you could do around 200* but I don't know for sure if he knew what was up. I don't think it is as strong as the reg stuff but pretty sure it was stronger than paint by quite a bit. The other option is just a sled wrap.

Jaynelson · Aug 5, 2011

^ Or nothing?

63nova · Aug 5, 2011

Anodizing

Careful with anodizing...

You will need to put aluminum and only aluminum in the bath - no steel fasteners or rivets.

POLZIN · Aug 5, 2011

There are some low temp powders designed for use on plastics and other heat affected substrates . I did a bit of looking trying to find a better way paint sled hoods. from what I found its special order material at this point. maybe im not looking inthe right place too that could be the case.

mountainhorse · Aug 6, 2011

Good point!!

63nova said:
Careful with anodizing...

You will need to put aluminum and only aluminum in the bath - no steel fasteners or rivets.

icr · Aug 13, 2011

350 for 15 minutes, only thing that bent was the thin strip on the tunnel between the coolers.

http://backcountryrebels.com/showthread.php?t=13958

srosscojw · Aug 15, 2011

icr said:
350 for 15 minutes, only thing that bent was the thin strip on the tunnel between the coolers.

http://backcountryrebels.com/showthread.php?t=13958

X2, My local P Coaters say they can cure most of their powders at lower temps just takes longer. I had min done and it came out perfect.

Yamadoo04 · Aug 15, 2011

srosscojw said:
X2, My local P Coaters say they can cure most of their powders at lower temps just takes longer. I had min done and it came out perfect.

Sweet looking sled. I like the orange and black. My rails orange now too. after seeing yours I think I want to paint that little bracket that goes to the bumper too. That looks sweet.

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