What do you want from your fuel controler?

R_8_N · Jul 9, 2012

I've ran a Turbo dragon with a attitude box for 3 years at 9 lbs on pump. Setup VERY well and ill tell ya if I were able to run more on pump I would of. The topics shad do I want. Of I still ran a Turbo I would want timing.....I would probably run a viper.....I've already installed one on a Turbo and tuned it... rode it...the ones that are running high boost on pump gas have super crisp bottom ends and pull real hard on the top. I'm doin a power commander with some porting this year. Boost it is about the only setup I haven't seen but it does look like a real runner and he's backing it up with some pretty impressive riding.

Everyone always wants more......this is why we mod!

Wheel House Motorsports · Jul 10, 2012

R_8_N said:
I've ran a Turbo dragon with a attitude box for 3 years at 9 lbs on pump. Setup VERY well and ill tell ya if I were able to run more on pump I would of.

So if you were able to turn it up more that would make you happy? Again it seems like just the boost number is what is making you happy. but is the power actually there? stock sleds have very lazy timing maps and once you get up towards the rev limiter the timing map just falls off to the point it wont rev higher, once you hit this part of the map the only reason your making more boost is because the motor is acting like a big restrictor that wont flow any more. again not saying timing manipulation across the board isnt beneficial but pulling it on top just for more boost seems like searching for a boost number, not more power.

i just see this like launch control in a funny way. back the timing way off. just because your making boost doesnt mean sh1t. your not even moving any faster then idling.

philsummers21 · Jul 10, 2012

Ski-Dooin it said:
So if you were able to turn it up more that would make you happy? Again it seems like just the boost number is what is making you happy. but is the power actually there? stock sleds have very lazy timing maps and once you get up towards the rev limiter the timing map just falls off to the point it wont rev higher, once you hit this part of the map the only reason your making more boost is because the motor is acting like a big restrictor that wont flow any more. again not saying timing manipulation across the board isnt beneficial but pulling it on top just for more boost seems like searching for a boost number, not more power.

i just see this like launch control in a funny way. back the timing way off. just because your making boost doesnt mean sh1t. your not even moving any faster then idling.

In my thinking is i prefer to add timing down low for more throttle response. If thats all i had then whatever. But because you can pull a little off the top then why not? it just makes it that much safer when running towards the limits of your fuel anyway. There will always be people that want to say there running X amount of boost on pump fuel. So there is a market for these types of controllers. In a perfect world id like to run say up to 14# on pump fuel and make huge hp. but id be happy with running 50/50 or even straight race to make the hp i want. Now after having a big booost apex im ready for a mild boost pro. Just enough to make me stand out. granted i havent rode my Boosted pro yet so we will see how high it actually stays. Im hoping to keep it around 10#

R_8_N · Jul 10, 2012

Ski-Dooin it said:
So if you were able to turn it up more that would make you happy? Again it seems like just the boost number is what is making you happy. but is the power actually there? stock sleds have very lazy timing maps and once you get up towards the rev limiter the timing map just falls off to the point it wont rev higher, once you hit this part of the map the only reason your making more boost is because the motor is acting like a big restrictor that wont flow any more. again not saying timing manipulation across the board isnt beneficial but pulling it on top just for more boost seems like searching for a boost number, not more power.

i just see this like launch control in a funny way. back the timing way off. just because your making boost doesnt mean sh1t. your not even moving any faster then idling.

I personalty don't care about a boost number.....had a Turbo for 3 years and other than working on it that sled made me very happy! BUT II am now looking forward to not having a Turbo in the stable. I was totally happy at 9the on pump. Ran it at 12 with some mix and yes it had more. We all know that pump makes better bottom end and I believe all round more power at the same boost number at a mix of race or AV......ie 9 lbs on straight vs 9 on pump. If I had a controller that would allow me to change the timing to where I could run say 12 on pump and feel the difference hell ya I would try it out..... how can ya say that changing the timing for a sled that runs pump at 9 to run pump at 12 is less power? Have ya done this? You're right, a engine s just a large air pump jlbut I think the more air you can force through it the more power its gonna make......hence we add turbos to our sleds. I like the discussion but are we getting off track of the topic? :face-icon-small-ton

m1kflyingtiger · Jul 10, 2012

Off the topic of timing a little, but I think on topic for the post; in a fuel controller I want a good base map (at least stock run-ability), with little to no adjustment needed for changes in temp, altitude, moisture, air density, boost, ect. I would say an auto tune, but in my experience all that does is buil you a decent map to fine tune from. Having a decent map and a AIT sensor and boost sensor i think this could be accomplished. But that's my thinkin and I'm no tuning guru. Basically I would like a stock ish running sled with a lot more power.

That being said I also would like adjustability throughout the map range on the fly. I currently am running silbers 2012 kit and it's my only sled. As much as Id like to sound bA and say I never ride trails, I'd be full of it if I did. On the few trail rides I did this year I found that I can adjust pre boost fuel, boost fuel, and WOT boost fuel, but there was nothing for a mid range. When cruising down the river in a little to no load situation I had to constantly blip the throttle to keep boost kicking on so that it wouldn't lean out. And by the time you mess everything else up enough to keep fuel in the midrange the bottom was so blubbery and boggy it wasnt even fun. Even if it's not needed/wanted for the Mountian riding aspect I would like to see that adjustment availabe for that situation.

Iceman56 · Jul 11, 2012

For me I want a complete standalone that involves no tuning like Impulse's. I am not a tuner and I don't want to be dicking with it all day or watching my afr's when I can just turn the key and ride. Why would you want to be watching your afr's all day when the computer can be adjusting them real time for you, to hit your target afr? I also don't see how controlling timing through the rpm range and boost range can't be beneficial with some testing, to run more hp/boost on pump fuel.

gus bohne · Jul 11, 2012

Taking timing away for low octane fuel only works to a point on a 2 stroke. the timing PULL adds more heat to the pipe in turn putting extremely high return wave heat on the exhaust side of the piston.

It is a band aid and a poor one at best for a 2 stroke. Yes, pulling back to 12 degrees from 14 -15 will stop the knock for a bit, then it tortures the exhaust side of the piston from that late flame driving the turbo speed up and turning the pipe red .. Its nice to be able to move it a few degrees but its not a fix for low octane . not in a 2 stroke..

When you see the moly knocked out of the rings in front of the exhaust port ( rings will look like a hollow I beam not a convex edge ) you'll get it.. Just like a doo without boost !!!

Gus

Wheel House Motorsports · Jul 11, 2012

gus bohne said:
Taking timing away for low octane fuel only works to a point on a 2 stroke. the timing PULL adds more heat to the pipe in turn putting extremely high return wave heat on the exhaust side of the piston.

It is a band aid and a poor one at best for a 2 stroke. Yes, pulling back to 12 degrees from 14 -15 will stop the knock for a bit, then it tortures the exhaust side of the piston from that late flame driving the turbo speed up and turning the pipe red .. Its nice to be able to move it a few degrees but its not a fix for low octane . not in a 2 stroke..

When you see the moly knocked out of the rings in front of the exhaust port ( rings will look like a hollow I beam not a convex edge ) you'll get it.. Just like a doo without boost !!!

Gus

well put gus, couldnt have said it better myself.

now back to the topic of fuel!!

Duke · Jul 11, 2012

gus bohne said:
Taking timing away for low octane fuel only works to a point on a 2 stroke. the timing PULL adds more heat to the pipe in turn putting extremely high return wave heat on the exhaust side of the piston.

It is a band aid and a poor one at best for a 2 stroke. Yes, pulling back to 12 degrees from 14 -15 will stop the knock for a bit, then it tortures the exhaust side of the piston from that late flame driving the turbo speed up and turning the pipe red .. Its nice to be able to move it a few degrees but its not a fix for low octane . not in a 2 stroke..

When you see the moly knocked out of the rings in front of the exhaust port ( rings will look like a hollow I beam not a convex edge ) you'll get it.. Just like a doo without boost !!!

Gus

I bet a good water to air intercooler would have a far greater effect on performance and detonation than messing with a bit of timing. I wouldn't own a two stroke turbo without water to air...

Vi-PEC Powersports · Jul 13, 2012

gus bohne said:
Taking timing away for low octane fuel only works to a point on a 2 stroke
basicaly, you pull timming AND soft injection cut when detonation starts.....for whatever reasons.
the timing PULL adds more heat to the pipe in turn putting extremely high return wave heat on the exhaust side of the piston.
agreed, if taking away too long....but very beneficial and requiered when you can build your failsafe to the milisecond.

It is a band aid and a poor one at best for a 2 stroke.
i do not agree one bit on this one, it is a marvelous feature when you control it perfectly, but you must soft cut your injectors too.
Yes, pulling back to 12 degrees from 14 -15 will stop the knock for a bit, then it tortures the exhaust side of the piston from that late flame driving the turbo speed up and turning the pipe red ..
again, only if backed too long.
Its nice to be able to move it a few degrees but its not a fix for low octane . not in a 2 stroke..
best case scenario is no detonation whatsoever, but when **** happen, then pulling away timming AND soft injection cut is the best you can do to avoid burning down your engine.

Vi-PEC Powersports · Jul 13, 2012

Duke said:
I bet a good water to air intercooler would have a far greater effect on performance and detonation than messing with a bit of timing. I wouldn't own a two stroke turbo without water to air...

the intercooler with lower charge temps helps avoiding detonation of course but to what point??being able to control all parameters from injection timming,dwell of the capacitors,ignition duration,injectors duty cycle ect....is what you need to EFFECTIVELY control detonation. For example, last week we were at bikeman performance mapping the new Push turbo polaris pro turbo kit(WOW!). it was 45 celsius outside, no intercooler, coolant temps aroung 58 - 68 celsius, charging temps around 75 celsius before we staged the third injector and the sled took a 5 hours beat without one knock whatsoever....after 5 hours the third injector was turned on and charge temp when down by 20 celsius and we went to 8lbs on pump gas and still no detonation,not even close and we have room for another lbs or two on pump, sea level with no intercooler 191 hp and 90% humidity also!! can't wait to see what it will make for hp at winter time...208hp-212hp. just for reference, last winter the highest charge temps i have seen was 20 celsius!! so that 2 stroke motor likes heat no problem at all, surving the 7 hours beating she got is a realy good news for all pro owners, no one ever tested a pro in those conditions to my knowledge.

backcountryislife · Jul 13, 2012

joshkoltes said:
instant throttle response, no dead spots, and 8200 rpm

This.

One that works, and that I don't have to mess with. I'm willing to give up a few horse if I can get consistency.

wrang · Jul 17, 2012

Standalone plug & play, with a touchscreen on your sled that you can adjust everything, NO LAPTOP. And a very good basemap that is tested to your turbokit:rockon:

Wheel House Motorsports · Jul 18, 2012

wrang said:
Standalone plug & play, with a touchscreen on your sled that you can adjust everything, NO LAPTOP. And a very good basemap that is tested to your turbokit:rockon:

feeling brave are we? there is a lot going on that 99.99% of riders have NO business touching.

also, just a thought on the touch screen idea, i do like them, but in cold they suck as they rely on heat from your hands to sense touch. there not fun when your hands get cold and they stop responding.

Wheel House Motorsports · Jul 18, 2012

For example, last week we were at bikeman performance mapping the new Push turbo polaris pro turbo kit(WOW!). it was 45 celsius outside "90% humidity also!"

113*F outside in WI? and 90% humidity.... lol, tell me more.

no intercooler, coolant temps aroung 58 - 68 celsius, charging temps around 75 celsius before we staged the third injector and the sled took a 5 hours beat without one knock whatsoever....after 5 hours the third injector was turned on and charge temp when down by 20 celsius and we went to

3rd injector? i thought all last season you said you didnt need them? and wow, you must just be pouring fuel in through it to drop 20*C on your charge temps. i dont have time to run the numbers right now but i will tonight. lets just say im calling BS well in advance.

8lbs on pump gas and still no detonation,not even close and we have room for another lbs or two on pump, sea level with no intercooler

does this kit turn water to wine as well?

191 hp and 90% humidity also!! can't wait to see what it will make for hp at winter time...208hp-212hp. just for reference, last winter the highest charge temps i have seen was 20 celsius!

so 191-143 = 48hp/8# of boost = 6hp per pound. i wouldnt exactly be bragging that up, for the weather its not the worst thing on the planet, but many many piggback systems have done much better then that, how could that be?! they must be lying. lol.:face-icon-small-con

Vi-PEC Powersports · Jul 18, 2012

Ski-Dooin it said:
113*F outside in WI? and 90% humidity.... lol, tell me more.
yes that's what it was( we hit the heat wave across minnesota)

3rd injector? i thought all last season you said you didnt need them? and wow, you must just be pouring fuel in through it to drop 20*C on your charge temps. i dont have time to run the numbers right now but i will tonight. lets just say im calling BS well in advance.
who said we "needed" the third injector?? the stock pro as fuel for 10lbs at 10 000 ft easily on stock injectors, Ken's kit has a third injector that's all, we are working with the manufacturer design. you can run the numbers as much as you want, we are not running numbers,we are making the numbers.....before calling BS on real world numbers,call joey at bikeman he was with us all the time we were there, then you can BS us all on here.

does th1is kit turn water to wine as well?
.....:face-icon-small-sho......

so 191-143 = 48hp/8# of boost = 6hp per pound. i wouldnt exactly be bragging that up, for the weather its not the worst thing on the planet, but many many piggback systems have done much better then that, how could that be?! they must be lying. lol.:face-icon-small-con
First of all, at those temps, the pro is making 121 hp(at ther crank)and stock at 10 celsius it is making 132 hp, so you better review your calculation tables or just come to our dyno sessions! so 191-121= 70 hp at 8lbs it is 9 hp/lbs boost and those numbers are on a very safe tune(pig rich) and timing curve way far from any detonation(still 3 degrees in the back pocket)......i guess you can run those numbers and tell us all what kinda hp we will end up with on an aggressive tune :face-icon-small-sho . as far as fuel controller goes, i have no clue what kinda hp it is giving since i never tested those on a dyno, the one thing i know is i have blown 6 engines in 3 years wth those on dragons !!!

Scott · Jul 18, 2012

PRECISION E.F.I. said:
the intercooler with lower charge temps helps avoiding detonation of course but to what point??being able to control all parameters from injection timming,dwell of the capacitors,ignition duration,injectors duty cycle ect....is what you need to EFFECTIVELY control detonation. For example, last week we were at bikeman performance mapping the new Push turbo polaris pro turbo kit(WOW!). it was 45 celsius outside, no intercooler, coolant temps aroung 58 - 68 celsius, charging temps around 75 celsius before we staged the third injector and the sled took a 5 hours beat without one knock whatsoever....after 5 hours the third injector was turned on and charge temp when down by 20 celsius and we went to 8lbs on pump gas and still no detonation,not even close and we have room for another lbs or two on pump, sea level with no intercooler 191 hp and 90% humidity also!! can't wait to see what it will make for hp at winter time...208hp-212hp. just for reference, last winter the highest charge temps i have seen was 20 celsius!! so that 2 stroke motor likes heat no problem at all, surving the 7 hours beating she got is a realy good news for all pro owners, no one ever tested a pro in those conditions to my knowledge.

So there is ANOTHER turbo kit for the Pros that will have the Vipec?

Vi-PEC Powersports · Jul 18, 2012

Scott said:
So there is ANOTHER turbo kit for the Pros that will have the Vipec?

Yes and this year after haydays we are closing the shop to cars and jumping on snowmobile full time mid-september. Lots of travelling across NA this fall/winter!

Wheel House Motorsports · Jul 19, 2012

PRECISION E.F.I. said:
who said we "needed" the third injector?? the stock pro as fuel for 10lbs at 10 000 ft easily on stock injectors

if you make no power per # then yeah sure you can fuel that.

we are making the numbers....

with your keyboard is what i worry.

the one thing i know is i have blown 6 engines in 3 years wth those on dragons !!!

those things fail on there own stock, so im not surprised.:face-icon-small-blu

...

R_8_N · Jul 19, 2012

Ahhhhhh.....looks like skidooinit finely found what he was looking for!

What do you want from your fuel controler?

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