• Don't miss out on all the fun! Register on our forums to post and have added features! Membership levels include a FREE membership tier.

OIL RATIO DISCUSSION ON THE 800 CFI MOTORS

Thread Rating
5.00 star(s)

Bagger

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Nov 26, 2007
914
508
93
63
South Central WA
Great input guys, thanks! I feel smarter and everything!
So the lessons I'm taking away from all this, is
1. I'm going to have a 'certified' wrench adjust my oil pump up about 5%.
2. This site really is the best, there are great peeps on here that are willing to share knowledge without ridicule.

THANKS!!

Bag
 

Matte Murder

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Premium Member
May 4, 2011
3,579
2,259
113
FTX no synthetic on break in correct? You guys are in my part of the world. I gotta come over and check your place out.
 

richracer1

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Feb 2, 2011
3,626
2,480
113
Idaho Falls, ID
FTX no synthetic on break in correct? You guys are in my part of the world. I gotta come over and check your place out.

SLP told me they use Red Line Racing (full syn) even on new engines and continue using it after break-in. I'm old school and did engine break-in w/dino oil so I just bit my toungue and filled up the oil res with Amsoil INterceptor and went for it, so far so good. SLP also recommended I adjust the pump for a little more oil AND even add a few ounces to the fuel. The image I post above has the pump dispensing a little more oil than stock. As I was playing around w/my sled yesterday, please take note that if you adjust your throttle play up by the handle bars, you could be leaning out your oil mixture. I know mine is an IQ and don't know if the Pro will react the same way, but the adjusting I did for free play had the pointer below (less oil) the indexing line. After much fun readjusting the oil pump cable down in the bulk head, I have all of it set the way I want it.
 
Last edited:
G

gman086

Well-known member
Feb 5, 2008
1,347
572
113
Portland, OR
I experimented quite a bit last year. I found that turning up the oil pump worked well on it's own but if you ALSO added more to the tank then I ran into some pretty bad fouling issues when using just 1/2 oz/gal. No more oil in the tank for me and I'm still getting the benefits of the extra crank bearing oil.

Have FUN!

G MAN
 

richracer1

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Feb 2, 2011
3,626
2,480
113
Idaho Falls, ID
I experimented quite a bit last year. I found that turning up the oil pump worked well on it's own but if you ALSO added more to the tank then I ran into some pretty bad fouling issues when using just 1/2 oz/gal. No more oil in the tank for me and I'm still getting the benefits of the extra crank bearing oil.

Have FUN!

G MAN

Since I'm still in the break in stage, I'm running 40:1 in tank and what ever the pump is now putting out and haven't fouled a plug yet, but it does smoke more than usual due to the extra oil.
 

Reg2view

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Feb 1, 2010
2,392
1,600
113
I've posted this in the past in a few places - the Rouseau factory boys did some pointed research in the days of premix/early injection, confirming the HP impact of oil/gas ratio. They clearly found more oil = more hp, to a point, after correcting for fuel/air ratios. Which further supports some of the statements made here. Think a doo race manual or two in the 90's referenced this effort, too, as weird as that might sound. The other most obvious thing to me is - with a transfer port injected motor, turning up the pump is even more of a no brainer.

So, EPA aside, more oil at the pump = higher reliability and no loss of performance, with the only downsides of added cost and being stupid and leaning out the pump instead of enrichening it. As much as we spend, another couple hund for oil isn't going to force 99% of us out of this obsession. Some dealers may go against doing it per poo and EPA, but if you can pull the airbox off the Pro, you can certainly do this yourself pretty easily. I know MH previously posted the page out of the shop manual - the same one I have for the 11, page 2.10. Mine was turned up already, to the bottom lip of the lever 'notch'.
 

beamslayer

Well-known member
Premium Member
Nov 29, 2007
944
314
63
65
In the end result we are looking for wet oily deposit in y pipe,tan colored plugs,and a finger nail size wash at the ports?
Do we turn up the oil pump or add oil to the tank or do both?
Another sleepless night. All kidding aside this is some great info.
 

richracer1

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Feb 2, 2011
3,626
2,480
113
Idaho Falls, ID
In the end result we are looking for wet oily deposit in y pipe,tan colored plugs,and a finger nail size wash at the ports?
Do we turn up the oil pump or add oil to the tank or do both?
Another sleepless night. All kidding aside this is some great info.

I know SLP recommends, if not using Redline Racing 2-stroke oil, to add 1.5 oz for each gal of gas - assuming of course the pump is adjusted properly. Personally I'd richen up the pump a little in lieu of messing around with pre-mixing but don't go crazy with it. I'll reference my pic in post 14 that the pointer is just barely above the horizantal line (pointer on line is standard setting for '09 700) which will allow the pump to run a little more oil to the engine.
 
Last edited:
T

TurboMatt

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2008
857
251
63
For those of us who aren't as familiar with polaris oil pump: Could you be a little more specific on how to exactly turn up the oil useage on the pump?
 

richracer1

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Feb 2, 2011
3,626
2,480
113
Idaho Falls, ID
For those of us who aren't as familiar with polaris oil pump: Could you be a little more specific on how to exactly turn up the oil useage on the pump?

I've only seen the IQ pump set-up, which you just screw the nuts one way or the other accomplish pump adjustments. I think on the Pro, you adjust the linkage rod, but I've not seen the Pro set-up so I'm guessing on it.
 

diamonddave

Chilly’s Mentor
Lifetime Membership
Apr 5, 2006
5,577
3,890
113
Wokeville, WA.
This is the Pro oil pump adjustment spec.

attachment.php


attachment.php
 

Reg2view

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Feb 1, 2010
2,392
1,600
113
I know SLP recommends, if not using Redline Racing 2-stroke oil, to add 1.5 oz for each gal of gas - assuming of course the pump is adjusted properly. Personally I'd richen up the pump a little in lieu of messing around with pre-mixing but don't go crazy with it. I'll reference my pic in post 14 that the pointer is just barely above the horizantal line (pointer on line is standard setting for '09 700) which will allow the pump to run a little more oil to the engine.

I've only seen the SLP rec pertaining to the 08/09/10 CFI 4, haven't heard them rec that for the CFI 2. Has anyone been told that they are still doing this with the CFI 2?

With that said, I did the pump, also. Better to me than more oil through two port injectors that will get blown out the pipe.
 

richracer1

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Feb 2, 2011
3,626
2,480
113
Idaho Falls, ID
I've only seen the SLP rec pertaining to the 08/09/10 CFI 4, haven't heard them rec that for the CFI 2. Has anyone been told that they are still doing this with the CFI 2?

With that said, I did the pump, also. Better to me than more oil through two port injectors that will get blown out the pipe.

Yes Sir, you are correct, that SLP recommendation was for the CFI-4 engines, but I believe they still follow that practice with their Pros
 

Creek Chub

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Dec 28, 2007
147
61
28
Blackduck, Minnesota
This is the Pro oil pump adjustment spec.

attachment.php


attachment.php

DDave
Thanks for the info. very helpful.

The million dollar question.
Which direction do you rotate (adjust) the oil pump lever notch on the scribe mark to increase the oil flow? Clockwise or counter clockwise?

Does anyone know the fuel : oil ratio Polaris is setting on the oil injections from the factory? :plane:
 

richracer1

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Feb 2, 2011
3,626
2,480
113
Idaho Falls, ID
DDave
Thanks for the info. very helpful.

The million dollar question.
Which direction do you rotate (adjust) the oil pump lever notch on the scribe mark to increase the oil flow? Clockwise or counter clockwise?

Does anyone know the fuel : oil ratio Polaris is setting on the oil injections from the factory? :plane:

Step 6 buddy
 
D

dynotechjim

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2007
143
161
43
Batavia, NY
www.dynotechresearch.com
I plan to do a test comparison of oil pump settings on a Polaris 800 EFI, which should be interesting. Dyno testing various fuel/oil ratios on carbed engines is difficult because mixed oil displacing fuel through the main jet can result in leaner (more powerful) mixtures, just like installing smaller main jets. Plus the more oil mixed with gasoline, the higher the specific gravity, too, further skewing results. Lots of people have tried various % fuel/ oil mixtures here on carbed engines without much discernible difference. So doing this sort of evaluation with fixed EFI fuel flow and varying oil flow with injector pump will make this practical. My gut feel is that more oil than absolutely necessary for bearing reliability will reduce HP due to excessive friction in the crank/ rod ball/roller bearings. Kevin Cameron reminded me that it might be like driving down a wet road in your car, and when you encounter a sheet of standing water the car suddenly decelerates from the added friction.

And do we really need more oil to create ring seal? My opinion is no, especially since creating nearly perfect ring seal on worn engines has shown us disappointing results. Remember when SkiDoo had trouble with crumbling moly in the rings on the 600 twins? For a DTR test (and to learn something) we dyno tested one with bad rings (25% leakdown as I recall), then relaced them with new rings (less the 5% leakdown) and got almost zero power improvement. In addition, it seems that the NASCAR and F1 engine people strive to remove all but a few microns of oil from the cylinder walls with perfect oil control rings to keep the top rings just barely lubed, but not dragging down HP.

This discussion makes me think back to the comprehensive dyno evaluation of an aftermarket two-stroke oil I did with my XLT600 (posted on my website). As recommended I had soaked the cylinders overnight in this stuff, then put several hours on the engine with the new oil, only to see a 2% loss in horsepower on an engine that repeated with a few tenths of a percent. Fortunately when I drained the oil tank and refilled it with Polaris oil, the power immediately came back. It really didn't make much sense then, but could the aftermarket oil have had higher viscosity, hence higher friction? On four-stroke bikes and sleds, we find as much as 4% horsepower increase when we use 0W20 oil instead of thicker stuff like 5W30 or 40. Maybe thinner (and diluted more with gasoline) injector oil will help us make more power. So when we add 10HP to a CFI4 800 by leaning out top end fuel flow by 10-12% we are making the oil/fuel mix that reaches the top end even higher viscosity? Can we make even more power by dropping the oil consumption by 10%?

But then we seem to be searching for better longevity of parts as well as added HP. Can we have both? If it turns out that cranking up the oil flow adds power, then probably yes. And those who have suffered from parts wear, adding oil seems to be smart because who cares if you lose 2 HP if you can make it through a season on the same pistons. (However, on some sleds that exhibit premature piston wear, just proper PCV midrange fuel tuning can eliminate that, which is way better than dumping in extra oil). But what if we make 1% more power with @20% less oil? The greediest of us will surely crank that oil flow down if that gives us 1.5hp more than our pals, but will we have more wear on other parts?

I should be able to find the optimal pump setting for max power, but it may be minimal. But it does seem that having the most HP means having the least friction which should = less wear on parts. More questions that need answering! It will take the dyno to determine max HP, plus 1000s of miles of field testing to determine what is really optimal. I hope be able to provide the first half of the equation-- then let the greedy ones be the guinea pigs!
 
Last edited:

mountainhorse

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Premium Member
Dec 12, 2005
18,606
11,814
113
West Coast
www.laketahoeconcours.com
Jim,

Great emails from you as well.

Thank you for taking this on.

Dyno results will be great to see and it is great to see someone with your experience and resources try this experiment.

Here are some things, IMO, to ponder.

HP means having the least friction which should = less wear on parts.

Friction and hydraulic drag are two different aspects of the "frictional loss" equation to take into consideration

Having adequate oiling to prevent film break-through is another... Expecially when the coatings on the pistons are pretty slick, but then we are talking about hard surface wear that can rear it's head later down the line.

With the C-4 fit of the bearings in the Polaris Crankshafts, I'm not sure that a 10-15:1 increase in fuel/oil ratio will cause a drag difference that will cause hydraulic drag issues of any significant amount. How much does the Isoflex greased PTO bearing in the IQR or Rotax motor detract from power output?

For me (my opinion) , If going from 66:1 down to 32 or 40:1 actually drops power output by one or 2 HP I'm good with that as there is more lubrication in the motor to help deal with challenging situations.

I'm anxious to see the results of the Dyno Runs...

Thanks again!!

MH
 
Last edited:

Bagger

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Nov 26, 2007
914
508
93
63
South Central WA
But it does seem that having the most HP means having the least friction which should = less wear on parts. More questions that need answering!

Jim, thank you again for all the great info. When you answer this, please remember that I'm only smart when I'm on the internet, in real life I'm pretty slow, so please talk slow and use little words.

But in your statement above, which does make sense to my internet intelligence, you state less friction = less wear on parts. Ok, but when we achieve that less friction by applying less oil, and maybe lower viscosity oil, and 'assuming' (I know, I know) that if we are looking to % of oil for horsepower that we have already got the engine running as lean as possible for return, aren't we risking excessive heat? My real life brain says 'leaner = heat, lower viscosity oil = heat and less oil % = heat. In my non internet brain (the one that has limits and really does think about repair bills instead of hills climbed) heat would be just as damaging to the longevity of an engine as friction.
For ME, I would have to see a significant increase (more than I believe is achievable) to offset the risk to my equipment.
Maybe I'm being skeptical and should just listen to my internet brain that says I need to split frog hairs for that extra .0137931% of power increase.
(2% of 145) (See, right now my internet persona is telling me if I round that out it's really .014% ! )
I guess this whole ramble is in an effort to draw a line between possible (internet boy) and practical (reality man).
Thanks,
Bag
 
Last edited:
R

RKT

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2001
1,819
1,485
113
Preston, Idaho
www.2strokeheads.com
There are a few SAE papers that address this very issue.. they are older papers but there was extensive testing and data associated with them..

Long story .. short.. more oil proved more power EVERYTIME down to a certain ratio and then it became counter productive..

More oil will ALWAYS make your crank happy...

I have ALWAYS recommended MORE oil in ANY 2 stroke engine..

The dyno will not tell us what we we need to know unless you run 2 minute or more pulls and then keep it running at moderate levels for 30+ minutes..

Real world testing and , more importantly, engine inspection after a season will tell the story of how "happy" the engine internals were...

Kelsey
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Premium Features