strange problem,, any ideas?

hcrider · Feb 18, 2013

2011 m8 cutler stage 2

takes 8 to 10 pulls when cold then sled fires and dies. pull again and fires and dies. after this sequence of 2-3 pulls sled runs great all day long and usually fires on first pull when warm. when done riding load sled on trailer and drive about an hour home. go to unload:noidea: and pull 10 to 15 times and nothing. if i hit the heat soak bypass switch sled will fire on first pull. i have noticed this 3 weeks in a row. i have put iso heat in fuel to eliminate a moisture problem. just put new reeds in before this weekend and nothing has changed. now that i know how to start it it is not a problem just cant imagine it would not cool off on the way home on an open trailer to be a heat soak problem..

thanks

Snowmow · Feb 18, 2013

Just an idea.
I recently read on here that maybe blowing into the atmospheric pressure tube on the ecu could also act as a heat soak cure. So maybe something is wrong with that sensor? Just a thought.

av8er · Feb 18, 2013

If it will start on first pull with the heat soak switch off

you have a bad water temp sensor, it is located under the sled, pull the plastic panel off and you can see it, it is a gold colored plug type sensor. based on the info you gave us

doo-ski · Feb 18, 2013

This is weird, currently having exact same problem on a 2013 pc 800 with cutler stage 2. Reeds replaced again and they were reeds were fine. Interesting on the water temp sensor

Sent from my I phone

mmsports · Feb 18, 2013

reeds

Sounds like you have a chipped reeds.

maniac mechanic · Feb 18, 2013

Ran into that exact sort of problem. The owner tried all kinds of stuff to fix the problem. He narrowed it down to it only acted up when it was sitting long enough to let the residual fuel presure drop. Then it would not build fuel presure when cranking. He said it would fire right up if he pulled a plug and primed it with a squirt of fuel.
When he finally brought it in, I did some testing and found that the way the pump is wired,on stage 2 or higher, it was not getting enough power to run the pump. if you hit the pump with a battery , just enough to get fuel presure built up, it would fire right up. Tested this out in many situations, by cracking the fuel line and draining the residual presure. Hooked the pump up to the stock pump power supply and it started good every time. Tested the power and found on the stock power supply for the pump, it will hit at least 11.5 vdc and as high as 15.7 vdc, with one pull of the rewind. the accesory power, that Cutler powers the pump from would only hit a max of 5.5 vdc, no matter how hard i tried. Once the engine fires, the voltage jumps to 14.7vdc and stays there. He did say once it was runnng it was good. A few times he said it stalled out when left ideling too long. I did find that the voltage was irratic when the idle was low.
I have a wiring update that we are going to test in the next week or so, to make sure it works and doesn't effect anything else. Will let you know how it works!
Just wanted to add I ruled out all the obvious things, like the reeds, temp sensor and overide switch etc.

hcrider · Feb 18, 2013

mm sports... I thought the same thing so replaced the reeds. the tips were chipped a bit but had the same problem with new reeds

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mmsports · Feb 18, 2013

??

These kits dont have fuel pressure gauges ?

A must have on a turbo.

Whimp · Feb 18, 2013

Lasko Innovations said:
Ran into that exact sort of problem. The owner tried all kinds of stuff to fix the problem. He narrowed it down to it only acted up when it was sitting long enough to let the residual fuel presure drop. Then it would not build fuel presure when cranking. He said it would fire right up if he pulled a plug and primed it with a squirt of fuel.
When he finally brought it in, I did some testing and found that the way the pump is wired,on stage 2 or higher, it was not getting enough power to run the pump. if you hit the pump with a battery , just enough to get fuel presure built up, it would fire right up. Tested this out in many situations, by cracking the fuel line and draining the residual presure. Hooked the pump up to the stock pump power supply and it started good every time. Tested the power and found on the stock power supply for the pump, it will hit at least 11.5 vdc and as high as 15.7 vdc, with one pull of the rewind. the accesory power, that Cutler powers the pump from would only hit a max of 5.5 vdc, no matter how hard i tried. Once the engine fires, the voltage jumps to 14.7vdc and stays there. He did say once it was runnng it was good. A few times he said it stalled out when left ideling too long. I did find that the voltage was irratic when the idle was low.
I have a wiring update that we are going to test in the next week or so, to make sure it works and doesn't effect anything else. Will let you know how it works!
Just wanted to add I ruled out all the obvious things, like the reeds, temp sensor and overide switch etc.

This is exactly why I think the bottom end is so finiky on the 2010-2013 sleds with the cutler and twisted set up. The high volume pump they use is starving for voltage on the bottom end so it throws all shorts of things off.... This is why I have been running the OVS fuel system which uses the stock fuel pump and an inline booster pump. There system even allows the booster pump to suck past the stock pump when it wants more fuel. Works awesome! and no more starting problems or bottom end problems. We have also been using the DC converter kit from Cat to power the fuel pumps. It makes more power quicker than using the accessory switch like twisted does...pretty sure cutler already uses this...

hcrider · Feb 19, 2013

fuel pump

i was just on ovs website and was reading about their fuel pump, says it eliminates the hard starts waiting for fuel pressure to build. another idea i have read about someone using a small 12 volt battery tied into fuel pump wire with toggle switch. fli[ switch for few seconds before you start sled and build fuel pressure. battery would just need a charge once a week.

mmsports · Feb 19, 2013

install gauge

I woild think the first thing to do is put a gauge on to make sure this is what's happening . I have been using a fuel pump accelerator and they work good.

hcrider · Feb 19, 2013

mine has a guage on it and when you fire it up cold guage is around 2o-25 psi and machine runs rough until fuel pressure increases to near 40, once fuel pressure increases it idles normal. when you shut machine off it usually stays around 30 psi. i think as mentioned that it seems to take a while to build enough pressure to actually fire machine. this is why i like ovs fuel pump option or maybe a battery to build pressure before trying to start machine

BigAir · Feb 19, 2013

Twisted use to offer a wiring and relay setup that pulled power from the stock fuel pump wire and then switched to the acc wire after the sled started. Don't know if they still offer it or not. If not, try contacting "spoon" on here as I think he is the one that originally came up with the idea and he was selling them as well.

Tonysnoo · Feb 19, 2013

hcrider said:
mine has a guage on it and when you fire it up cold guage is around 2o-25 psi and machine runs rough until fuel pressure increases to near 40, once fuel pressure increases it idles normal. when you shut machine off it usually stays around 30 psi. i think as mentioned that it seems to take a while to build enough pressure to actually fire machine. this is why i like ovs fuel pump option or maybe a battery to build pressure before trying to start machine

There are lots of bells and whistles that can be installed to conquer this problem. One of the simplest and (for me) bullet proof is an old fashion snowmobile or watercraft fuel primer. It's stupid easy to install and generally you can start the most finicky engine in one or two pulls after the primer squirts raw fuel into the TBs or reeds. It's so easy and consistant...no fancy jingle junk to install. :face-icon-small-ton

One other symptom you mentioned had me thinking. You mentioned when it starts it quits and then you have to pull it a bunch more times and it starts again.......If it starts(more than a cough) the first time, it should make fuel pressure pretty quickly so if it won't idle imediately, then your initial fuel pressure may be just a tad low or your TPS might be off just a bit.

hcrider · Mar 1, 2013

update.

talked to dale at cpc and decided next step is to replace fuel pump. just installed new pump so will know tomorrow afternoon if problem is solved. if not i guess the fuel pressure regulator is next.

stcatman · Mar 2, 2013

My 1000 has developed same problem, I have noticed my headlight dont light up when pullin the rope so i was thinking low voltage, i turned off thumb & hand warmers & unpluged the hood & seemed to help, then i noticed once it fires i flip the water temp bypass & next pull it will start. I have been like this for ?? 10 rides, hasnt got worse , new reeds & intake boots last week, like you say once you get it running it starts with 1/4 of a pull all day but when i get home its 10 or so to get off the trl.

hcrider · Mar 9, 2013

new fuel pump installed, sled started easier than has once warm. thought the problem was gone until i went to unload after drive home. same gig 10 pulls untill first sputter then several pulls later only running on one cylinder and unable to buildenoough fuel pressure to run normal. flipped bypass switch and walaaa, rpm picked up and sled ran fine to unload. sled will maintain fuel pressure sittting in unheated part of shop for several days and fire on 2 or 3 pulls. bumpy trailer ride home after it has been run all day and no fuel pressure when i get back to town. sending pressure regulator off to get rebuilt and see how that works

Speeedracer · Mar 13, 2013

Interesting thread...my 2012 PC w BD just suddenly died like it ran out of fuel or hit kill switch. Thought it was fuel pump intially, but it seems to check out fine. It did fire up when we put fuel in spark plug holes, and did start once when we used aux battery to run fuel pump...... at a loss right now

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strange problem,, any ideas?

hcrider

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Snowmow

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av8er

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doo-ski

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mmsports

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maniac mechanic

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