05 900 clutching..CANT DECIDE..INPUTS PLEASE!!

krat · Jan 10, 2009

the reason for the 18/39 was that I wanted to gear it down with minimum parts to be replaced. so I went from 19 to 18 with the same chain.

for you clutching, don't try to tune with the setup from someone else. we all have different sled (paddle length, gearing, stock wheel/big wheel, track length, etc...) but whatever these mods, your target RPM should be 7200-7400 (for the 900cc). at 8000 you have passed the peak of the power curve (rpm vs hp) and the engine will produce less power if you rev your engine above the peak hp's rpm.

let's recap again, on WOT we want to hold the engine at the peak power as the cvt is shifting out. So for the 900rmk/fusion we want the rpm to stay at 7300 (with wot) while the sled mph is increasing.

First of all we need to know what your RPM is doing with your actual clutch settings. (with WOT from 0 to 75mph)
- one thing we know for sure, it start to shift too late (8000 rather than 7300)
- does your rpm start to drop from mid to top-end?
- does it hold the same rpm until top-end and then increase slowly (good)
- does it overshoot too much: from 0 to 25mph the rpm go to 8000 and then settle down to 7800 and stay flat all the way to end of shift?

what is your current spring/weight and spring/helix? (scuse me I will re-read the thread first lol)
krat

guidoxpress · Jan 10, 2009

Krat..

great info..

my clutch setup is in the first post..

i am heading out to ride sat afternoon..so i will not the RPM in the ranges you stated..and let you know..

i am not tryingto base my setup on others..just wanted to see the common parts used throughout other 900..helix's and whatnot..

thanks again..you have become the new cluthing guru from other posts i have seen from yuo..WAY over my head....lol..

krat · Jan 10, 2009

I think your problem (too high shifting rpm) is coming from the flyweight
polaris have a chart and recommend to use lower weight when operating at higher elevation. that's why you got 70g (sea level is 74). but using lighter weight changes not only your engagement rpm but also your shifting rpm.

in reality polaris should suggest an elevation table which would require a spring change. (to increase the engagement rpm and keep the same shifting rpm) but I think this was too much trouble (or complicated) for them.

at higher altitude, the power needed at engagement will be produced by the engine at a higher rpm (thinner air = less power for the same rpm) but the peak hp's rpm will be the same.

Example:
Sea level:
A) 145hp when the engine reach 7300rpm (above and below that you get less power)
B) at 3700rpm let says you have 30hp (engagement)

with the same engine at 8000'
A) 120hp when the engine reach 7300rpm (this peak hp's rpm will not change, and the engine will not produce 145hp at a higher rpm unless you have a turbo which will keep the intake air pressure)
B) you will get the 30hp needed for engagement at a higher rpm (let's say 4000-4200)

that's why I'm saying you should only change your spring to get a higher engagement rpm but the same full shift load (when clutching a sea level sled for altitude)

for your case, going from the green spring (140-330) to a red (140-320) would keep your actual engagement rpm while decreasing your shift rpm.

krat

sleddude · Jan 10, 2009

Dogmeat said:
Does anyone have a part # for the Red/Pink spring for the secondary?

WPS 30-210184

http://www.carlscycle.com/eshopprod_cat_3799-24094_product_476437.TEAM174_SPRINGS_FOR_TSS-98_.htm

sleddude · Jan 10, 2009

06 900 166

I installed the Team Red/pink and 66/44 and left my primary stock. So far pulls really strong. Thinking about 10-74 and SLP blue/pink in the primary. I heard this is what to try for 3000 to 7000' for the 06 900. Geared to 19/42 and used the same chain, best mod I did.

I found that the helix works better run in the 66/42 position. I ran 7650 rpms with stock pipe so think I'll try the same setup on my SLP pipe set for 09 -2010 season and see how it works.

guidoxpress · Jan 10, 2009

Sleddude.

thanks for the inputs..seems everyone is pretty much on the same table with helix's and pretty close on springs.

think im gonna try the 66/44 for sure..will pick up a RED primary spring (140/320) to decrease my shifting RPM, (but still order a blue/pink primary anyways) and red/pink secondary..and work on the weights like Krat suggested..

Indydan is out of town for the weekend and is gonna chime in on the thread when he gets back..will see what he has to say and call it good after that so i can send that baby into him for a balance..

Anybody have inputs on the heelclicker weights..talked to a buddy on here, want to get some more opinions on them..??

krat · Jan 10, 2009

btw be carefull when choosing a spring other than polaris & team.
preload and full-load value are measured at 2.5"-1.19" (prim) and 2.2"-1.1"(sec) while SLP&EPI it's 2.5"-1.25" and 2.5"-1.25" !!!!

I have never tried the heelclicker weight. got a set of mtx but never installed them. but most of these type (like team heavy-hitter) have more weight at the heel, the curve could also be different and center of gravity is not the same for sure. Are often called "more aggressive".
They tend to be aggressive on the shiftout (more weight at the heel =lower rpm) and rev more in high-ratio (higher rpm is needed to create the same side force at the tip)

But remember: A straight shift curve (rpm vs mph after shiftout point) is what we want. If we can have the same RPM from low-ratio to overdrive it's the more efficient way to transfer max power (keeping the rpm at where the peak HP of the engine is) This kind of weight would be a solution to a drop in rpm from mid to high ratio.

Backshifting (downshift response to increases in load, Ex: coming out of a corner, climbing, hitting powder, ...) Most backshifting problem comes from friction in your prim/sec clutch. So replacing any moving worn parts such as button, roller, cleaning belt dust will help backshifting.

let's keep tuning the 900 and have fun
krat

guidoxpress · Jan 10, 2009

krat..

good info once again..how about i just send you my clutch and you go crazy with it..lol..would save me the silly questions and mass confusion..

i will stick with the Polaris/Team springs then...just seems that i cant find every color in one brand..didnt know the load rate was diff..

krat · Jan 10, 2009

yeah stick with TEAM spring. it's easier to compare potatos with potatos.
they are easy and fast to get.

guidoxpress · Jan 11, 2009

Krat,

Thanks for the help my friend..

MH have any inputs..

sent an email to Dan for info on balancing..

Dogmeat · Jan 12, 2009

krat said:
8000RPM... are you sure that is your peak HP?
if there is a dyno near your place give it a try. will cost you only 2hrs of work.

if you have the stock crank and cylinders your peak hp should not be different from others. using a turbo or nitous it will make more power but the RPM where the peak HP is, wont change that much.

krat

What would changing your crank out do to your peak HP #? Increase it or lower it ....?

I'm kind of fighting this as well ... with everything I've done to this motor I dont have any idea anymore what the power band on it looks like.

krat · Jan 13, 2009

Dogmeat said:
What would changing your crank out do to your peak HP #? Increase it or lower it ....?

a different crank design (counterweight, balance, strength, ...) will give you a different power curve. put it on a dyno and you'll see.

What I was saying was that all 900 stock engine (with no mod on compression, port, crank, piston) will produce their peak HP at about the same RPM. (corrected for standard ext air conditions)

Another thing to take in consideration is that the torque peak happens earlier than power (hp) peak. when the rpm drops (hitting powder) the torque increases at the same time and the increased torque feedback will help the clutches to back shift and bring the rpm back up.

the ideal shiftout point is a the hp peak. shifting before the power peak rpm is worst than after (no torque or hp feedback for back shifting) and shifting passed the power peak will make less power but at least produce more torque as the rpm drops.

i will put mine (stock + vforce3) on a dyno soon. but I am pretty sure the result will be the same as what we have seen so far (peak hp around 7100-7300).
krat

thefullmonte · Jan 14, 2009

Probably a little late to chime in. The MTX and Heelclickers are both the same ramp as a 10series. I believe the lightening weights are as well. I don't think the lightnings have as much heel mass though.
The MTX has a set amount built into the base of the weight while the Heelclicker is adjustable.
There is no doubt these can be a real pain to tune, but the end result is very much worth the effort. Especially with these big twins. Standard weights just don't really harness the power very well.
Thanks for pointing out the rate/force measured difference between Polaris/Team and SLP/ EPI. A lot of people miss that.
Don't be afraid to use a lot of spring pressure on the Team secondary's. It seems the heavier you go the more you will smile. I'm told this is due to compression force rather than torsional force of the spring. The clutch works more in a straight in and out fashion rather than a twisting screw type fashion. Sorry for the over simplification there.

guidoxpress · Jan 14, 2009

sweet

thefullmonte said:
Probably a little late to chime in. The MTX and Heelclickers are both the same ramp as a 10series. I believe the lightening weights are as well. I don't think the lightnings have as much heel mass though.
The MTX has a set amount built into the base of the weight while the Heelclicker is adjustable.
There is no doubt these can be a real pain to tune, but the end result is very much worth the effort. Especially with these big twins. Standard weights just don't really harness the power very well.
Thanks for pointing out the rate/force measured difference between Polaris/Team and SLP/ EPI. A lot of people miss that.
Don't be afraid to use a lot of spring pressure on the Team secondary's. It seems the heavier you go the more you will smile. I'm told this is due to compression force rather than torsional force of the spring. The clutch works more in a straight in and out fashion rather than a twisting screw type fashion. Sorry for the over simplification there.

Monte..
thanks for the info..its NEVER too late to chime in..ecspecially when its about clutching, lol..

i have a set of heelclickers but i really dont want to machine my primary..so debating on selling them and getting the 74g MTX instead..

you know the heavier spring pressure for the secondary would make sense..when i PM Indaydan before he went out of town, he mentioned using the following..which confused me..but like you said, heavier spring makey you smile..

indydan said:
"Drive - 72 to 74 grams with Black green Polaris"

"Driven - 66 x 42 or 64 x 40 with a spring with 160/300" .

just couldnt believe the 300 finish rate..but you made sense..just may buy one incase..

thanks again..i learned ALOT from this thread..thank you everyone..feel free to chime in MORE!! :beer;

diamonddave · Jan 14, 2009

let's recap again, on WOT we want to hold the engine at the peak power as the cvt is shifting out. So for the 900rmk/fusion we want the rpm to stay at 7300 (with wot) while the sled mph is increasing.

I was under the impression that those of us with the SLP pipe, reflash, etc. wanted to be at 7,800 RPM?? Is the 7,300 mark for stock pipe??

Great discussion btw. I'm sure Mountainhorse is enjoying the break.:beer;

guidoxpress · Jan 14, 2009

lol..

diamonddave
I was under the impression that those of us with the SLP pipe, reflash, etc. wanted to be at 7,800 RPM?? Is the 7,300 mark for stock pipe??

Great discussion btw. I'm sure Mountainhorse is enjoying the break.:beer;

Dave..

according to SLP..7600-7800 is ideal..i have the clutching chart they have online for the 05 and 06 900s with their pipe/reflash..just needed to get a little more detail on settings, and cover the secondary..

and you know. i thought the same thing about poor Eric (MH)..he gets slammed with PMs and tries his hardest to help..i think he is on a very well deserved break right now..

i am glad i asked on the thread..learned an incrediable amount..so thank you and the guys above..:beer;

guidoxpress · Jan 14, 2009

FYI..

any secondary spring rate for a TSS-98 Secondary will NOT go over 260 finish..

260 is the max for 98 helixs'..anything over the 260 will only fit the TSS-04...

so its a Team red/pink for me..140/260

krat · Jan 14, 2009

diamonddave, guinoxpress:

do you really think all their pipe have been tested on a dyno?
read what sled-werx came up with... power peak with the slp was reached at lower rpm! that was a real test with the same engine the same day.
the SLP chart is showing 165HP@7700rpm for the 06 900......big BS
http://www.startinglineproducts.com/img/dyno/06-900-Pol-Single.gif
krat

source: 2koolperformance

thefullmonte · Jan 14, 2009

guidoxpress said:
Monte..
thanks for the info..its NEVER too late to chime in..ecspecially when its about clutching, lol..

i have a set of heelclickers but i really dont want to machine my primary..so debating on selling them and getting the 74g MTX instead..

you know the heavier spring pressure for the secondary would make sense..when i PM Indaydan before he went out of town, he mentioned using the following..which confused me..but like you said, heavier spring makey you smile..

just couldnt believe the 300 finish rate..but you made sense..just may buy one incase..

thanks again..i learned ALOT from this thread..thank you everyone..feel free to chime in MORE!! :beer;

I have the newer design Drag and Fly weights. They don't require any grinding or machining of your primary.
Since everyone on here was nice enough to educate me on secondary helix angles. And understanding the spring pressure, you can have your cake and eat it too. Especially on the 900 you can run the extreme angle helix. Maintain enough side pressure for good belt squeeze. And still have good back shift with the heavier spring. Happy tuning :beer;

guidoxpress · Jan 14, 2009

^^ Absolutely..

Thanks for your inputs Monte..and for your dedication to the sport and even with your busy company this time of year, you still help others on snowest..

your the man..!!

sean

05 900 clutching..CANT DECIDE..INPUTS PLEASE!!

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