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[christopher]

I have a question. Of the ones banned it seems some have logged back in like you say with an alter. I have then heard there ip is banned as alters are not allowed. Also have heard that some alters were just banned right off the top. so what do you do when the whole household logs into snowest with several different names?

Correct you are.
We do track all known alter accounts.
And in some cases when the alter comes in and is known to be that of a banned member, the alter gets banned right away. And in some cases the IP itself gets banned as well.

In the case where we have several different people living in the same household and one of the members gets banned, I would suggest that it is up to the other members to have a "chat" with that banned member and bring his or her behavior back into line with the posted rules on SnoWest.

I will remove a ban on any member that contacts me and tells me they will abide by the rules. And I have done so countless times.

Bottom line.

If your not attacking the site...

Posting P O R N

Or just going out of your way to stir the pot and cause trouble or promote hatred

You're not going to get banned.

 

[KSH]

Much too late now. I don't see ANY backing off of this becoming a full pay site. The content will suffer, the site will change, but Harris will still make a boat load of money. THAT, not improvements for us, is the motivator.

A business making a profit for investing money, damn we can't have that.

Look at the bright side, the government will be able to pay off the national debt with the taxes that Harris Publishing will be paying from this pay site.

 

[adrenaline junkey]

Correct you are.
We do track all known alter accounts.
And in some cases when the alter comes in and is known to be that of a banned member, the alter gets banned right away. And in some cases the IP itself gets banned as well.

In the case where we have several different people living in the same household and one of the members gets banned, I would suggest that it is up to the other members to have a "chat" with that banned member and bring his or her behavior back into line with the posted rules on SnoWest.

I will remove a ban on any member that contacts me and tells me they will abide by the rules. And I have done so countless times.

Bottom line.

If your not attacking the site...

Posting P O R N

Or just going out of your way to stir the pot and cause trouble or promote hatred

You're not going to get banned.

Thanks for clearing that part of my question Up but as i have seen many times before only part of the question is answered. This is the kind of thing I was talking about there never is a clear cut answer it is avoided. How can you expect to lead everyone into a new improved forum when you wont do what some of the members ask? If they wanted there account deleted seems all you do is lock them out all there info and posts stay. I can see the posts because it add content to the site but if you want them to truly leave and quit moaning and Bi#@hing why wouldn't it be best to wipe out there existence here?

 

[OuraySledder]

A business making a profit for investing money, damn we can't have that.

Look at the bright side, the government will be able to pay off the national debt with the taxes that Harris Publishing will be paying from this pay site.

Like I have posted elsewhere. If it does not offend you to your core that Harris wants to use the members freewill contributions and good will to make money for themselves, we have very little to discuss.

Harris can make money by using advertisers. If they can't, they shouldn't be in business. I am a full on capitalist, but this verges on exploitation regardless of how you want to spin it.

You are absolutely right, this is beating a dead horse. The decision is made. I would love to see you guys put your money where your mouth is and go full pay today. Let us see how the members respond then. I double dog dare you

 

[KSH]

Like I have posted elsewhere. If it does not offend you to your core that Harris wants to use the members freewill contributions and good will to make money for themselves, we have very little to discuss.

Harris can make money by using advertisers. If they can't, they shouldn't be in business. I am a full on capitalist, but this verges on exploitation regardless of how you want to spin it.

You are absolutely right, this is beating a dead horse. The decision is made. I would love to see you guys put your money where your mouth is and go full pay today. Let us see how the members respond then. I double dog dare you

This will seem like a smart azz question, but it's not meant to be.

When your buddies ask for information, how much do you charge them?
There are very few on here that have given a lot more information than they have received.

I look at the pay site as H.P. is suppling us a premium way for us to communicate. Is it worth $29.95 a year "NO" not at this time.
They will have to add a lot of content for me to think it's worth that much.

But I gave them three years to get me to pay that price.


It surprises me how many think this site survives only because of them, everybody is replaceable.
The question will be how long it will take to get the quality of content back.

 

[OuraySledder]

This will seem like a smart azz question, but it's not meant to be.

When your buddies ask for information, how much do you charge them?
There are very few on here that have given a lot more information than they have received.

I look at the pay site as H.P. is suppling us a premium way for us to communicate. Is it worth $29.95 a year "NO" not at this time.
They will have to add a lot of content for me to think it's worth that much.

But I gave them three years to get me to pay that price.


It surprises me how many think this site survives only because of them, everybody is replaceable.
The question will be how long it will take to get the quality of content back.

You are scaring me. Seems like you have acknowledged there will be a slip in the quality of content? Sounds like a validation of my concerns.

What you failed to acknowledge is that just as the participants here can be replaced, so can the free forum

You completely lost me with the "how much do you make your buddies pay" line. Where where you going with that? Almost seems as though you once again agree with the opposition to a pay site???

 

[christopher]

Thanks for clearing that part of my question Up but as i have seen many times before only part of the question is answered. This is the kind of thing I was talking about there never is a clear cut answer it is avoided. How can you expect to lead everyone into a new improved forum when you wont do what some of the members ask? If they wanted there account deleted seems all you do is lock them out all there info and posts stay. I can see the posts because it add content to the site but if you want them to truly leave and quit moaning and Bi#@hing why wouldn't it be best to wipe out there existence here?

Believe it or not it has nothing to do with adding content.

User Accounts, and User Posts are NOT deleted because of the secondary damage it does.

Here is an example.

Lets say that over the course of the year you started 100 threads. And they were good interesting threads that generated lots of replys and participation from other members.

Then you decide to quit SnoWest and ask me to delete your account, and every trace of anything you ever said on SnoWest. You want to vanish and go away as though you had never been here. Seems fair enough, right?

Problem is that when I delete your account, and delete each of those threads that you created, the system has NO ALTERNATIVE but to delete every single post and reply to all of those threads as well. Thus the collateral damage is HUGE.

That effects every single person that ever participated in those threads. All of their posts get nuked as well.

And, in all the threads that you did not start, but participated it, when those posts get nuked, it can rip the guts right out of a thread and cause a subsequent reader to be left reading something that is unintelligible as content has been removed that was key to the flow of the thread.

So, in short, we do not delete any accounts or posts from members that decide to leave.

We will close accounts, remove contact information, ect.
But the posts remain in place to preserve the overall integrity of the database.

 

[christopher]

Perhaps KSH has come to understand that as a Paid member he now has a STAKE in the future of these forums. And that as a paid member who has a vested interest in what happens here his voice just might carry more weight now and in the future than it ever has in the past...

 

[Trashy]

Some great info in this thread.

I think its quite obvious where I stand on all this so I won't do any preaching here, but I will ask all of you to at least give this some time and see how it works.... how do you ever know if something isn't a good change if you don't at least try?

 

[NorthMNSledder]

Do you really expect us to buy that? All that I see right now are hundreds of posts against the change. I do not believe for one second that the majority wanted these changes, or wanted this to become a pay only site. THAT IS THE PROPOGANDA BEING SPREAD HOWEVER.

It is a darn shame to see this site sold out for the almighty dollar.

Sure, I believe that there were complaints/requests to work on the speed issues. sure, I bet there were some wanting to try some new features they see other places. The smart thing would have been to offer those features to those who wanted to pay, and left full, or nearly full, free access to those who liked the old snowest.

Much too late now. I don't see ANY backing off of this becoming a full pay site. The content will suffer, the site will change, but Harris will still make a boat load of money. THAT, not improvements for us, is the motivator.

Do I expect YOU to buy that, no. Do I expect others with a more open mind, yes. Because it's the truth, maybe not what you wanted to hear. And for the many that asked for changes or are for the pay site they won't come on here and voice their thoughts because they get blasted every time they do. We see it everyday on here. Yet there is no reason that their information is not as important as yours right? You would be very surprised at how many members will send a PM with there thoughts and not mention it in the open forum. Does that make their opinion any less or more valuable then yours? Just because the option you want is not the option the site is taking does not mean it may not be the right one.

Like I have posted elsewhere. If it does not offend you to your core that Harris wants to use the members freewill contributions and good will to make money for themselves, we have very little to discuss.

Harris can make money by using advertisers. If they can't, they shouldn't be in business. I am a full on capitalist, but this verges on exploitation regardless of how you want to spin it.

You are absolutely right, this is beating a dead horse. The decision is made. I would love to see you guys put your money where your mouth is and go full pay today. Let us see how the members respond then. I double dog dare you

If this statement is true and you are truly "offended to the core" with what Harris wants to do with their site then why are you still here? You already know where this site is going and have known for months. So what forum do you run that you can give us such incite into the inner workings of online forum and how much money should be made? I'm just kind of curious.

 

[Snow Duck]

new to new or old to old

Like i posted prev. if you buy a sled and it has something you like (prev snowwest with less people) then you have some things you don't like (the new pay site but still can acess some stuff for FREE) with lots of new members daily...and has to have some updated stuff...so when you buy a part to update the stuff you don't like did the manufature pay or did you!!!! all i keep hearing is ing about the pay thing so move on if you don't want to pay...i am not defending christopher i don't know him adam, none of you would put up your own crap you keep dealing...So back to pay or not to pay that is the true meaning ?

 

[bgreen776]

ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY.

Its about snowest keeping unpaid members from participating. unpaid members contribute greatly to this website.

ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY.

Its about snow west preventing unpaid members from even viewing their previous contributions.

ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY.

See my sig line. I paid because Christopher said that a paid member might have more voice. I hope he was being honest.

ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY.

 

[OuraySledder]

Perhaps KSH has come to understand that as a Paid member he now has a STAKE in the future of these forums. And that as a paid member who has a vested interest in what happens here his voice just might carry more weight now and in the future than it ever has in the past...

So he has taken a stake in a venture that he acknowledges has flaws, a venture that is about to be confronted with a rash of free alternatives, and one that is sure to suffer in content because of poor management choices.

I guess that isn't a bet I would take given my personal experience with ventures like this, and the negative outcomes I have seen. I certainly wouldn't be willing to "take a stake" in something that seems so obviously flawed.

Of course given the state of our nation, with its dearth of participants willing to stand up for right and wrong, commitments like this are not terribly surprising. You have surely put up an impressive facade. I am impressed with the incremental, if insidious, nature of the implementation. The longer you drag out the inevitable, the more sheep seem to be falling for it.

Unfortunately, when a large number of quality members leave because of this offense, there wont be much left worth paying for. My bet is, you make your money and move on Christopher. It has never been about building a quality community, because that was already present. It is pure profit, and more power to you but, spare us the shell game and come clean about the real reasons for this change....money?

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY.

Its about snowest keeping unpaid members from participating. unpaid members contribute greatly to this website.

ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY.

Its about snow west preventing unpaid members from even viewing their previous contributions.

ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY.

See my sig line. I paid because Christopher said that a paid member might have more voice. I hope he was being honest.

ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY.

Brook, they arnt hearing you..I have noticed for the most part(not all for sure) the guys who think us complainers, not wanting to pay members, are just whining, are the guys who dont contribute much to the tech side of things..they are the guys who need the tech threads....so in their eyes 30 bucks for all this info is a bargain...

 

[OuraySledder]

Do I expect YOU to buy that, no. Do I expect others with a more open mind, yes. Because it's the truth, maybe not what you wanted to hear. And for the many that asked for changes or are for the pay site they won't come on here and voice their thoughts because they get blasted every time they do. We see it everyday on here.

Those poor unheard souls...my heart bleeds. Blasted? Really? Are you trying to tell me the majority of members have come to you via PM's and asked that this become a pay only site?

If this statement is true and you are truly "offended to the core" with what Harris wants to do with their site then why are you still here?

Because it is still free, and the quality contributors are still giving. I am voicing my disdain for the concept and hoping others will open their eyes to what is going on here, and how incredibly unneccessary it is.

So what forum do you run that you can give us such incite into the inner workings of online forum and how much money should be made? I'm just kind of curious.

I do not run a forum, I am a moderator. I do not care how much money you make. It simply offends me that you want to charge the workers for the work. Obviously many will go along with it, and many wont. I think you seriously underestimate the changes coming.

 

[adrenaline junkey]

Believe it or not it has nothing to do with adding content.

User Accounts, and User Posts are NOT deleted because of the secondary damage it does.

Here is an example.

Lets say that over the course of the year you started 100 threads. And they were good interesting threads that generated lots of replys and participation from other members.

Then you decide to quit SnoWest and ask me to delete your account, and every trace of anything you ever said on SnoWest. You want to vanish and go away as though you had never been here. Seems fair enough, right?

Problem is that when I delete your account, and delete each of those threads that you created, the system has NO ALTERNATIVE but to delete every single post and reply to all of those threads as well. Thus the collateral damage is HUGE.

That effects every single person that ever participated in those threads. All of their posts get nuked as well.

And, in all the threads that you did not start, but participated it, when those posts get nuked, it can rip the guts right out of a thread and cause a subsequent reader to be left reading something that is unintelligible as content has been removed that was key to the flow of the thread.

So, in short, we do not delete any accounts or posts from members that decide to leave.

We will close accounts, remove contact information, ect.
But the posts remain in place to preserve the overall integrity of the database.

thank you for addressing the question and answering it and this would be why no one can delete old posts as well right? so in essence the members past present and future make this site what it is. snowest is providing the place for them to do so at a small cost. so with that being said listen to the members in what they want and compromise because even tho you provide the place they make the site they can do it here or elsewhere. Now that it is a pay site you must treat them as a customer . a certain amount of respect is going to be required on both sides. just my two cents

 

[christopher]

thank you for addressing the question and answering it and this would be why no one can delete old posts as well right? so in essence the members past present and future make this site what it is. snowest is providing the place for them to do so at a small cost. so with that being said listen to the members in what they want and compromise because even tho you provide the place they make the site they can do it here or elsewhere. Now that it is a pay site you must treat them as a customer . a certain amount of respect is going to be required on both sides. just my two cents

This is the current setting


Time Limit on Editing of Posts
Time limit (in minutes) to impose on editing of messages. After this time limit only moderators will be able edit or delete the message. 1 day is 1440 minutes.
(22,320 minutes.)


As you can see by the above value, you most certainly CAN delete old posts, but only within that given range of 22,320 minutes or 2 weeks. The intent is to allow you plenty of time to EDIT posts, but not go backwards and do mass deletions.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

thank you for addressing the question and answering it and this would be why no one can delete old posts as well right? so in essence the members past present and future make this site what it is. snowest is providing the place for them to do so at a small cost. so with that being said listen to the members in what they want and compromise because even tho you provide the place they make the site they can do it here or elsewhere. Now that it is a pay site you must treat them as a customer . a certain amount of respect is going to be required on both sides. just my two cents

I would add this..as far as deleteing post in threads..then isnt the result when a mod/admin. does it the same? The end effect on the thread would be the same right? Yet this happens on a daily basis..so then if a post in any thread is removed shouldnt it be done as soon as it is posted? or if a post needs to be removed then perhaps the whole thread after that post should be, so as to not take away the integrity of the thread?

 

[christopher]

I would add this..as far as deleteing post in threads..then isnt the result when a mod/admin. does it the same? The end effect on the thread would be the same right? Yet this happens on a daily basis..so then if a post in any thread is removed shouldnt it be done as soon as it is posted? or if a post needs to be removed then perhaps the whole thread after that post should be, so as to not take away the integrity of the thread?

As you can see you have a 2 week window to edit a thread.
Most moderation is done in real time, or within minutes/hours of the post being made.

Entire threads are almost never deleted, unless the whole thread has gone off the deep end and has nothing to do with snowmobiling.

Generally they are only moved into the moderator's forum. And more often than not, just the individual post in the thread is edited/deleted. The sooner it is done, the less ripple effect it has.

 

[OuraySledder]

Enough bickering from me. You guys have chosen your path, I have chosen mine. I think it is a shame, you think it is justified. I will peacably participate until the pay change is firm, then go on my way to the next opportunity.

For now I am going to go out, bolt the new 2010 seat to my Cat and get ready for a weekend of riding. I wish you all a good riding season as well.