Can Muslims be good Americans??? OBama??? What do you think?

[Pimp Daddy]

Thanx SLDGY but noone wants to read it and those that do can't recognize it. Here in North America, more than anywhere else in the entire world, we need an antagonist. That is we can't see ourselves as the "good guys" unless somebody somewhere is the "bad guy". In the days of political strife we had the evil, godless commies. Now in the days of religious struggle we need an evil entity to be better than. Enter the Muslims. Sure there are those that hate the freedom of the west, there are those that hate our way of life. However this is by far the vast minority. The media has pidgeonholed all members of this faith into the same radical extremism as those who have flown planes into buildings and blown themselves to smithereens. Much the same as the leaders of the Muslim right wing has preached that all in the west condone abortion, atheism, prostitution, drug abuse and homosexuality. I think we can all agree that not all of us over here feel the same on every aspect. However in order to unite one people against another the other side must be seen as of one mind. This makes the ideals of hatred easier to placate to the masses. We have been fed a steady diet of crap. All I ask is before anyone decides what is right and what is wrong, leave the media and read some books on comparative religion and theology. You will find that despite our huge differences we are not all that different in the end.

 

[Ollie]

You raise some great points. However it is a shame that they are all bull CHIT! The prophet Mohammed told all of religious tolerance and acceptance. That people of all religions could live together and accept and even learn from the teachings of each others faith. The ideas you raised are not those of traditional Islam but those that have been perverted to suit the ideals of the exteremists. This is not just true of Islam but there are those who "adapt" the scriptures in all religions from Christianity to Judaism to Sihk to Hindu. These "right wing" exteremists willfully pervert all religions into violence and exclusivity. If one were to look at the main teaching in all religions around the world the same core belief is common to all. Treat others as you would be treated yourself. This hatred and intorlerance of others will end. All that remain's to be seen is how.

ok, if it is all bull chit answer the question I put forward.
Again,
if the ideas have been perverted to suit the ideals of the extremist, why don't the clerics and other spiritual leaders denounce them??

Why don't you see huge demonstrations against the terrorist??

Why do you see these "extremist" fighting all over the world. Litterally everywhere in the middle east, africa, europe, asia etc. If it is just a "few" extremist, it must be a few million.

And again..
If it is just extremist, why don't the clerics and other leaders denouce them for the extremist and heritics they are??

 

[Ollie]

Thanx SLDGY but noone wants to read it and those that do can't recognize it. Here in North America, more than anywhere else in the entire world, we need an antagonist. That is we can't see ourselves as the "good guys" unless somebody somewhere is the "bad guy". In the days of political strife we had the evil, godless commies. Now in the days of religious struggle we need an evil entity to be better than. Enter the Muslims.

Don't you mean, enter the guys flying 3 airplanes?

As for understanding, I understand one thing very well.
Until the imons and clerics take control of their religion and drag it back from the brink of madness it has been taken too by the extremist, you won't see peace.

The Muslim religion is more open the farther you get from the middle east. The leaders in the middle east need hate to generate the need of their people to follow them, to protect them. That is why you saw massive parties all across the middle east when they found out 3000 people had been murdered in New York. They saw it as a strike against the evil they had been taught to hate. You speak of understanding, it starts with the muslim leaders.
When they decide to take a stand against the extremist, you will see a change. Till then, it won't end.

 

[POLZIN]

The fighting over religion has never nor will it ever end! All religions at some point in history have been guilty of horrible atrocites (SP).And they have all claimed that God was on there side and that they we combating the forces of EVIL. ITS ALL B.S. it has always been about power and control nothing else! Some would argue that religion should play a larger role in goverment. To me this is the most absurd notion I can imagine. the goverments of the world can't even begin to compete with the coruption and lies handed out by the churches. I would hope someday this would end and people would begin to think for themselves and realize religion is and has been the root of coruption and evil for as long as man has inhabited the planet.

 

[rkymtnman]

WOW - after reading all this I am amazed I haven't been killed or converted by my Muslim friends on recent trips to the middle east.

...and to think, I'm actually going back in a couple weeks. Better make sure my life insurance is paid up.

...end sarcasm....

I have actually *gotten to know* several devout muslims on recent trips to the middle east. We have had many spirited talks about the differences between Islam and Christianity. I have found them to be overly accommadating and hospitable in their country. I wish we could say the same for our fellow countrymen.

To answer your question - I believe yes - Muslims could be good Americans. Let he without sin cast the first stone.

 

[Pimp Daddy]

You speak of understanding, it starts with the muslim leaders.
When they decide to take a stand against the extremist, you will see a change. Till then, it won't end.

Why don't you see huge demonstrations against the terrorist??

If it is just extremist, why don't the clerics and other leaders denouce them for the extremist and heritics they are??

I'll try to answer these questions to the best of my ability but I urge all those with unanswered questions to actively seek answers.

In the middle east all conservative Muslims have denounced the teachings and beliefs of the radicals. However that doesn't make good TV, so we in North America didn't have it jammed down our throats on a daily basis. In the days following the terrorist attacks all muslims were not happy. There were those that saw the attacks for what they were, a cowardly unprovoked attack. That being said the media didn't lump all muslims into one group following the attacks. There was a gradual slide toward not correcting the people and themselves when they referred to the terrorists no longer as al-Queda or exteremists but just as muslims. The actual numbers of Right wing muslims may never be known but in reality the war on terror has done nothing but pad the ranks. It's easier to teach of a great evil empire bent on world domination when said western nation shows up and stars bombing everything in sight. Thus, fulfilling the prophecy was one of the worst ideas in the history of man. I don't pretend to know all the answers. For example what would have been the best way to eradicate the extreme and expose them for the liars they are. I do know however that war was a horrible idea and it's continuance is just fueling the fire. Al-Queda ran Afghanistan. They were second in command only to Al-laH himself. Questioning or protesting their word was punishable by torture and death. The reason for no one standing up and stopping the atrocities was fear of reprisal. Al-Queda was armed to the hilt with weapons which were supplied by the US government. (Watch Charlie Wilson's War it's great and historically accurate) They were also well trained in meathods of torture. The west has dropped the ball in this area before. Running in all gung-ho and kill em all let God sort em out. Then when the war is almost won they just pack up and leave. (Gulf war version 1, Supplying Afghanistan to fight the communists then leaving them high and dry when the war was over). No one there wants to speak out for fear that this is just a flash in the pan half a$$ed war like the last ones. Then in a few years after the west leaves and al-queda comes back into power they'll be left to the wolves as it were.

The actual numbers of crazies over there is basically on par with the abortion clinic bombing, cult running, bible thumping, lunatics we have over here. People going to church, loving their neighbours and living in peace doesn't sell air time. Look deeper than the media. Look past the hype. And above all don't believe everything you read.

 

[Ollie]

"Gulf war version 1, Supplying Afghanistan to fight the communists then leaving them high and dry when the war was over"

ok, we didn't leave them high and dry, we were asked (told get the heck out) to leave and we did.

As I said earlier.
When I see the clerics and Imons stand up as one and denounce the terrorist, then i will take another look. Till then, I don't trust em. I don't care what country they are in.

When they (their clerics and Imons) start activily trying to do something about the terrorist, then and ONLY then will I look at them as something other than a pretty face on a killing machine.

Lets face it. If the Imons and Clerics around the world said, ENOUGH. It would stop. You will never get all of them to try and stop it, but if you got all the ones who "claim" to be peace loving and tolerant it would be enough.

 

[Ollie]

WOW - after reading all this I am amazed I haven't been killed or converted by my Muslim friends on recent trips to the middle east.

...and to think, I'm actually going back in a couple weeks. Better make sure my life insurance is paid up.

...end sarcasm....

I have actually *gotten to know* several devout muslims on recent trips to the middle east. We have had many spirited talks about the differences between Islam and Christianity. I have found them to be overly accommadating and hospitable in their country. I wish we could say the same for our fellow countrymen.

To answer your question - I believe yes - Muslims could be good Americans. Let he without sin cast the first stone.

Serious request.
If you go over to the middle east, would you ask your friends the question no one seems to be able to answer.

Why don't the imons and clerics denounce the terrorist?

 

[rkymtnman]

Serious request.
If you go over to the middle east, would you ask your friends the question no one seems to be able to answer.

Why don't the imons and clerics denounce the terrorist?

I'll be glad to ask as I would also be very interested in their answer. You bring up a very valid point - I'm just not ready to make the generalized leap as many here are. Should be heading back the first week of April.

 

[24footjet]

Abortion clinic bombers and terrorist? On par? You can't be serious.

Underlying theme of the Koran. Kill the infidel. Is this not true? If they don't convert, kill them. Nothing in the Bible about killing abortion clinic workers. Non-Christian Whackos bomb abortion clinics... True Christians don't kill people because they are killing babies. True Muslims, if they follow what the Koran says, kill the infidel if they don't convert.

Christianity. If they don't come to the saving knowledge of Jesus, then it's on their own head. We don't force them or kill them because of a difference in belief, true Christians look out for the good, not the evil.

 

[POLZIN]

Abortion clinic bombers and terrorist? On par? You can't be serious.

Underlying theme of the Koran. Kill the infidel. Is this not true? If they don't convert, kill them. Nothing in the Bible about killing abortion clinic workers. Non-Christian Whackos bomb abortion clinics... True Christians don't kill people because they are killing babies. True Muslims, if they follow what the Koran says, kill the infidel if they don't convert.

Christianity. If they don't come to the saving knowledge of Jesus, then it's on their own head. We don't force them or kill them because of a difference in belief, true Christians look out for the good, not the evil.

how many MILLIONS have died in the name of Christ? Please get real! all religions have blood on there hands the muslims are just in the limelight right now !

 

[dingo2]

[Abortion clinic bombers and terrorist? On par? You can't be serious.

/QUOTE]

It was more of an extreme example to show that grouping all followers of religion by the actions of a few radicals is rediculous.

Underlying theme of the Koran. Kill the infidel. Is this not true? If they don't convert, kill them. Nothing in the Bible about killing abortion clinic workers. Non-Christian Whackos bomb abortion clinics... True Christians don't kill people because they are killing babies. True Muslims, if they follow what the Koran says, kill the infidel if they don't convert.

Christianity. If they don't come to the saving knowledge of Jesus, then it's on their own head. We don't force them or kill them because of a difference in belief, true Christians look out for the good, not the evil.

What a joke!The bible is full of the same thing you accuse the Koran of!

EG-Exodus35.2- For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
Hope you or anyone you know doesn't work that day!

Deut 21:18-21-says if you have a rebellious son who won't obey his father and mother he should be killed.

The bible also says homosexuals should be killed-Leviticus 20:13:

Do true christians follow what the bible says?Lets hope not!

 

[Pimp Daddy]

Underlying theme of the Koran. Kill the infidel. Is this not true? If they don't convert, kill them. Nothing in the Bible about killing abortion clinic workers. Non-Christian Whackos bomb abortion clinics... True Christians don't kill people because they are killing babies. True Muslims, if they follow what the Koran says, kill the infidel if they don't convert.

No it is not. Thats the typical bull chit we in the west have been fed in order to demonize the "evil muslims" . There are those that misinterpret the Qu-ran and pervert it's teachings to a book of hatered. Maybe you should go back and re-read my pervious posts.

 

[POLZIN]

This is a bunch of crap! these abortion clinic bombers are no diferent than these radical muslims. I think both sides need to admit the problem and deal with it within there own ranks. The hypocracy among the religous groups sickens me! Do a little studying about how "tolerant " the christians where when trying to convert the native american in this country . It was basically convert or die. The things our goverment and the church have done is horrible and in no way better than what is happening today . I dont think Christians have any right to condem muslims as a group any more than they should be condemed themselves.
but I bet the blind sheep wont see it that way! In my opinion chistians are not any better Americans that muslims can be !

 

[snowmanx]

So...No Native Americans killed during the settlement of this continent? Does it really matter if it is primary objective or not if it happens?
Snowmanx you would certainly make a better arguement if you information wasn't obtained from some email forward. Do you believe the ones that say if you don't forward it to at least ten people you will die tomorrow also?

No. LOL

I'm not claiming to know everything about this topic...hell, I know very little, that's why I think open conversations like this are good, it gives me the opportunity to hear other opinions and for me to formulate what it is that I believe. about this topic. I have no problem admitting that I may be misinformed about some things, and certaily uninformed by a long shot. I do listen to the news and I think that the people who said the media is twisting it are probably right....maybe. I think thee have been some god points made hear for both sides.

But like Ollie stated, if the world is so misinformed about what Muslins are about or their beliefs, why don't the leaders, or at least the leaders of the Muslim faith in this country, speak out against the "few radicals". That just doesn't make sense to me.

However, it doesn't change my mind about the potential threat that the Muslims are creating in this country, and it's not just in this country, it's all around the world.

If it is just a few radical muslims that are creating all this chaos and misconception about their god, it should be pretty easy for the majority of muslims to let the rest of the world know what kind of god they really do worship.

I am a Christian, and as such do believe in Jesus Christ as the living God, that lived a perfect life, died, and rose from the dead. He is living today and it is ONLY threw him that we can have everlasting life(heaven).

Does this mean that I or other Christians are perfect? Absolutely not. But look around the world today and see how many Christian organizations are working to help people all other the world. Most importantly, about sharing the gospel and the gift of eternal salvation thruogh Christ, but also by meeting their physical needs. Christians are not around the world making war, but sharing the good news of Jesus, just as we are commanded to do.

I have friends that are non believers, I don't push it like others might, but if they ask, and they usually do, I will tell them straight up what the bible says about life after death and how we are to conduct ourselves in this life.

I do not judge people because of how they live or what they believe, that is their business, but it is my business to share with them what I know to be true about God, when te opportunity presents itself.

I have been ridiculed far more for my beliefs than I have condemned others for theirs, that is not my responsibilty, but Gods and Gods alone. We will all be judge, so...............

IF you want to believe in a rock, or any other pgan religion, go right ahead. I KNOW the consequences of such a decision.