SNOWEST FORUMS: Member Comments on "Letter to All Members"

[christopher]

Wonder if there is a post limit on this thread????

Nope.
This one will be hot for a while I am sure.

For the next week people will be logging in and finding out so this will be brand new information for quite some time.

 

[Adrenaline Revolution]

Wonder if there is a post limit on this thread????

Why?
It appears to me that some of the concerns about the change-over are being addressed throughout this thread.
Some are very respectful questions with answers given and some are through very heated debate.
People relate differently and some have very unique ways of coping with others.
The anonymous written word does not lend itself well to debate or the tempo of a discussion because of the obvious lack of voice deflection, body language and facial expressions.
Much of what is said here is lost by some because of that.
I may be missing much of the points made by Chris because of an impression I have of him at this point and I could be very wrong in that impression but that is what dictates my perception of him right now.
I'll work on that.
Hopefully he will do the same.
By the answers he gives to some of my questions it is obvious he has the same mis-perception of me.

And in simpler terms we have ALL used here on this forum...
If you don't like the thread or it's content...DON'T CLICK ON IT.

 

[MtnDoo]

Nobody is worried about paying to use the site, the fee is trivial.

What we are worried about is the detrimental effect that placing barriers to entry will have on the future of the site.

If you're a little more creative and dilligent, I'm sure you can find a revenue stream other than erecting walls around SW and darkening the palace.

But then again, like you say with 36,000 registered users you're only hearing from the couple hundred that care, and statistically they're insignificant.

But then again, statistics don't apply to individuals as a rule.

You are making the case for a viable alternative:
www.SNOWest.[COLOR="Blue"]org[/COLOR][/B]
A User-Supported, Open-Access, Snowmobile Community.
Simple & Effective.

MD.

 

[christopher]

By the answers he gives to some of my questions it is obvious he has the same mis-perception of me.

To be honest, I have a BETTER feel for who you are and what your all about now than ever before!

 

[christopher]

But then again, like you say with 36,000 registered users you're only hearing from the couple hundred that care, and statistically they're insignificant.

But then again, statistics don't apply to individuals as a rule.

You are making the case for a viable alternative:
www.SNOWest.org

I have a large group of uses who are wildly divergent from each other.

There are the hard core daily posters on snowest.
Perhaps 2,000ish, who are VERY active in everything that goes on.

Then there are the semi actives, perhaps 12,000ish who check in a few times a week, post once in a while and read a lot.

And then the rest who are just pure lurkers, perhaps 20,000ish. They drop in randomly, usually don't sign into their accounts, and do nothing but READ READ READ looking for information.

My job is to try and BALANCE the wants and needs of those groups, and many times they so not agree with each other.

 

[Adrenaline Revolution]

To be honest, I have a BETTER feel for who you are and what your all about now than ever before!

That could be taken a couple different ways but I'll choose to take it as a positive step towards reconciliation.

 

[IShartd]

I have a large group of uses who are wildly divergent from each other.

There are the hard core daily posters on snowest.
Perhaps 2,000ish, who are VERY active in everything that goes on.

Then there are the semi actives, perhaps 12,000ish who check in a few times a week, post once in a while and read a lot.

And then the rest who are just pure lurkers, perhaps 20,000ish. They drop in randomly, usually don't sign into their accounts, and do nothing but READ READ READ looking for information.

My job is to try and BALANCE the wants and needs of those groups, and many times they so not agree with each other.

After reading this, it is becoming very clear that your motivation would be to control content for profit. Content that is and has been offered for free from folks who love the site and the sport.

 

[blob]

HMMMM
This NEVER came up in any conversations or discussions.

In fact it was always exactly the opposite.

"Make sure the SwapMeet stays 100% OPEN and FREE to everyone in the whole community".

To be successful the swapmeet needs to be available to anyone that wants to browse and buy for free, otherwise it limits the exposure. Charging for a listing sounds like a good alternative, but that may limit the listings.

In the grand scheme of things, I think that HP/SW is going in the wrong direction by making this a pay site. The are plenty of free alternatives out there, SW just happens to be my favorite. I will likely not join as a pay site member, not because I cannot afford it or don't see the value, but because I would choose not to support HP. ( I will likely drop my magazine subscription also.) In my opinion HP needs to find other ways to support SW. Charging for membership to me smells like greed, or lack of effort to try alternatives to support the forum. How do all the other free forums stay up and running? I would really like some insight on how free forums are viable. I assume it is from advertising, but am way out of my area of expertise here. If so many other forums can be successful with out charging, what make snowest different? Why does SW feel the need to charge it's members?

Change is hard. Some change is good, some change is bad. I like the approach that if it is not broken, don't fix it. I thought the old SW was not broken. HP thought is was broken and is trying to fix it. I don't agree with HP, but my perspective is different from theirs. Hopefully things will turn out OK for everyone. My life will go on with or without SW, hopefully it will be with SW.

Whatever happens, listen to the pulse of all of your members. Without members there is no site.

Bob

 

[MtnDoo]

<<My job is to try and BALANCE the wants and needs of those groups, and many times they so not agree with each other. >>


Collectively, we do not see any balance in your plans as executed to date and outlined at the beginning of this thread.

What we see is:
- grandiose feature-based plans that haven't worked well so far
- erosion of your content base
- barring out many, many users
- false comfort in the registration numbers
- hiding behind "the boss made me do it"
- a bumpy road ahead at best


What we do not see:
- meaningful engagement with the SW4M community
- focus on building content
- opening the doors further membership and contributions with a big tent approach (gawd, that's so William F. Buckley)
- clear, lucid, well thought out plans seeking support from the users
- any understanding of how SW got from a little server running FuseTalk to what it is today


Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Lunacy: Doing the same thing over and over and getting different results.

I suspect the current planing mode is that of Lunacy.

 

[ericbigbore]

Christopher,

Wow, you're really taking a beating!! I am one of those who will hang around and see what the masses do before I sign up and pay if I have to, but, with that sense of partnership will come some expectations. You think people whine now, wait until they are paying customers. The customer is always right!!

You have been very good a bout answering most of the questions but one. How many people have to say they don't want moderators with a "vested interest" over looking the forum before you make this a rule?

WE FLAT OUT DON'T WANT MOD'S TO BE VENDERS PERIOD!!!!

Don't make us name names just make it so, please. Eric

PS - How is your daughter doing?

 

[barkbuster]

Just one more way to look at this...

Take for example Craigslist,
shoppers for a certain item can freely browse and search to their heart's content and not have to pay a dime for that privilege.
That's a good thing!
They have tons of sellers to choose from because Craigslist charges nothing to place the ad.
Anyone can simply get on the site and create an Ad with pictures and all without giving it another thought because it's free.

If Craigslist thought they could make a few extra bucks by charging for the use of their site don't you think they would have done that by now?
I mean, they ARE the biggest online classified Ad site are they not?

You don't reach that status by charging your customers to use your product.
They get their revenue somewhere else...Where? I have no friggen Idea because it doesn't matter to me.
I just use their site.

Q: What kind of business model did Craigslist create? Is it the same as any job listing board (with fees for listings)?
A: We really don't have a business model. We are a community service, and we found some years ago that we could provide a really good service to employers and recruiters.
Then we asked our community, "What is the right thing to do along these lines?" They told us to charge the people who would otherwise be paying more money for less effective advertising. And that has helped set our moral compass. We are charging recruiters and employers in San Francisco, Los Angeles and New York.

Sounds like charging a fee for Swapmeet ads would be similar to the Craigslist model.

 

[Krust]

I have a large group of uses who are wildly divergent from each other.

There are the hard core daily posters on snowest.
Perhaps 2,000ish, who are VERY active in everything that goes on.

Then there are the semi actives, perhaps 12,000ish who check in a few times a week, post once in a while and read a lot.

And then the rest who are just pure lurkers, perhaps 20,000ish. They drop in randomly, usually don't sign into their accounts, and do nothing but READ READ READ looking for information.

My job is to try and BALANCE the wants and needs of those groups, and many times they so not agree with each other.

I think you need to be careful about balancing the desires of the semi-active and lurking members of the site when they are against the desires of the hard-core members. The hard-core members are the ones who make the forum what it is. They are the ones who give it character and substance. Those of us who just read may want some things to change to make it better for the way that we use the site, but if you implement those things at the expense of losing the hard core members you will lose everyone. If the hard core members leave the readers will follow because they will have nothing to read. Don't make the assumption that if you appease the readers they will contribute more. They won't. It's just not in their personality. I know. I'm one of them.

 

[Polar Express]

Alright, I'll write it...

Hotmail.... serves how many members?
Facebook... how many pictures and links?
Myspace.. how many more pictures, links and videos
Photobucket.... how many pics? (bucket loads! HA)
Google ... no membership required

.... all free

These entities have server farms that dwarf our hardware needs. I'm no computer genius, I'm using common sense here. Why have business savy moguls paid lots and lots and LOTS of American Dollars to 'buy' ownership of a free service? Eyeballs.

The goobers that are more worried about photoshop and who has what sexual preference may not care. But there are a lot of folks that contribute quality content that are posting their objections to the current DIRECTION this site is headed. I have learned a lot here, and, hopefully, I have been able to return some of that to others. But I'll follow the information, and when you talk about a huge number of 'lurkers', if they don't bother to sign in when it's free, what do you think they will do? They will go elsewhere, and the eyeballs you charge for with your advertising will go elsewhere as well, the advertisers will learn this, and you'll have a struggle. If you want to make a "private party", hey, it's America, go right ahead. (actually it appears you already are)

Keep in mind, the folks that 'own' this site, are not the ones that actually control it. Harris may own the servers, Moderators may be employed to control and organize stuff, but ultimately, without consent of the 'governed', there is no government.

Maybe we can get through, but I'm starting to doubt it.

 

[christopher]

That could be taken a couple different ways but I'll choose to take it as a positive step towards reconciliation.

It was mean to be POSITIVE!

 

[BIGGDAWG]

Alright, I'll write it...

Hotmail.... serves how many members?
Facebook... how many pictures and links?
Myspace.. how many more pictures, links and videos
Photobucket.... how many pics? (bucket loads! HA)
Google ... no membership required

.... all free

These entities have server farms that dwarf our hardware needs. I'm no computer genius, I'm using common sense here. Why have business savy moguls paid lots and lots and LOTS of American Dollars to 'buy' ownership of a free service? Eyeballs.

The goobers that are more worried about photoshop and who has what sexual preference may not care. But there are a lot of folks that contribute quality content that are posting their objections to the current DIRECTION this site is headed. I have learned a lot here, and, hopefully, I have been able to return some of that to others. But I'll follow the information, and when you talk about a huge number of 'lurkers', if they don't bother to sign in when it's free, what do you think they will do? They will go elsewhere, and the eyeballs you charge for with your advertising will go elsewhere as well, the advertisers will learn this, and you'll have a struggle. If you want to make a "private party", hey, it's America, go right ahead. (actually it appears you already are)

Keep in mind, the folks that 'own' this site, are not the ones that actually control it. Harris may own the servers, Moderators may be employed to control and organize stuff, but ultimately, without consent of the 'governed', there is no government.

Maybe we can get through, but I'm starting to doubt it.

I agree totally, and will add this i don't think any of us asked for all these bells and whistles we don't need them it was fine before the changes.

we asked for a couple minor things and now we get all this stuff shoved down our throats and on top of that now you want to charge us to post here and help others.

so you want to sell our collective knowledge that we give freely. i feel that by contributing to the knowledge base that is payment enuff.

by charging you will reduce the content therefore reducing the worth. it is a downward slope you are heading. hp better think long and hard before continuing down this path or they just may end up with nothing. And to think this used to be the best snowmobiling site on the web.

 

[christopher]

your motivation would be to control content for profit. Content that is and has been offered for free from folks who love the site and the sport.

My Motivation is to make the site self supporting and to INCREASE the content far beyond whatever has been found here in the past.

 

[christopher]

You have been very good a bout answering most of the questions but one. How many people have to say they don't want moderators with a "vested interest" over looking the forum before you make this a rule?

WE FLAT OUT DON'T WANT MOD'S TO BE VENDERS PERIOD!!!!

PS - How is your daughter doing?

Here is my problem, from the other side of the fence. Just because someone is a member of the industry doesn't mean they have to be biased and wield abusive power and authority over people. There seems to be 1-2 mods that members are generally unhappy with, 2 out of 42, and more than 2 are members of the industry. Its just that the others don't seem to be drawing your ire.

 

[christopher]

They won't. It's just not in their personality. I know. I'm one of them.

Thanks for coming out of the shadows.

 

[christopher]

And to think this used to be the best snowmobiling site on the web.

And to think it might be even better yet.

 

[Snoman69]

Wow... Talk about a $hit storm......

I have no problem paying a small fee for this great site, that is if it goes back to being a great site.... Over the past couple of years it seems to have gone down the toilet..... We have lost alot of tallented tuners to the BS of the newbie members who don't know their head from there @ss......

A few concerns/comments:

As Sled_Guy stated:
"My biggest concern is that some of the most knowledgable people that have a world of info in their heads will take a hike now. And so what do I then get for my subscription fee. We won't know what that looks like until later next year I suppose, but that is the biggest concern for me."

Also, the number of sub forums has gotten out of hand..... While I think that some of them are a good thing, i think you have over done it... Trim it back some..... FP for one, who needs the three sub sections. If people don't want to read it, they don't have to click on it, very simple!

I also agree with the other comments about Mods.... Mods with sledding related business's must go.... To me it is a conflict of interest.... Seems like there should have been a bit more thought into who you are having control and represent this site, not just joe blow that spends his/her life on here stirring up crap.... From what I have seen a good number of the mods have not been contributing members, but instead hanging out in FP upping their post count.

I hope with all the changes SW gets better.... I also hope that during this transisiton the powers to be take legitimate and constructive suggestions into account, after all it is the members that make the site....

Last item - PLEASE keep the swap meet the way it was... Your new idea is less the steller....