• Don't miss out on all the fun! Register on our forums to post and have added features! Membership levels include a FREE membership tier.

Don't buy a sled from twsandrew

I
Nov 26, 2007
2,866
1,337
113
I bought his turbo apex a few months ago, I live in Alaska and he lives in Utah so I was not able to inspect the sled before purchase. I took his word that it was in good shape. After several thousand dollars in parts and countless late nights in the garage it still does not run properly. Before I bought it he told me it had just been gone through, was running perfectly and needed nothing.

On my first ride on this sled I made it a mile from the truck before it started smoking like it was on fire, I could smell and hear oil burning. I limped it to the truck and when I got home I found oil in the intake. The oil return line was too long and had a bend in it below the turbo where oil could collect. The compressor seal on the turbo was completely shot. Andrew told me it had always smoked and this was normal.

I couldn't find a local shop who wanted to rebuild the turbo so I had a 2871 over nighted from paul at impulse turbos as well as a larger oil return line. When I got the sled back together and on the snow it ran terrible as soon as it started building boost, occasionally it would spike and I saw 27lbs of boost once. So back to the garage.

I found a pinched waste gate diaphragm. As far as I know the only way to pinch a diaphragm is to reassemble the waste gate wrong.

wastegate.jpg


This was keeping the waste gate from opening and causing the sled to over boost which broke the boost sensor in the fuel box taking away all boost fuel.

That was the main issue with the sled and the reason I know it didn't run right when he sold it. Since fixing that I've found many more problems and after each one I fix I find another.

This is the oil breather line from the crank case.

IMG_0213.jpg


Three of the four header tubes were cracked, one was broken all the way around.

IMG_0192.jpg


IMG_0191.jpg


IMG_0196.jpg


This is the damage to the tunnel from the header, although it isn't affecting the performance of the engine it may have shortened the header life.

IMG_0208.jpg


I've fixed about half a dozen boost leaks so far, a lot were caused by poor quality work like this. Most connections were over tightened, but a lot of vacuum lines didn't even have zip ties.

IMG_0205.jpg


Andrew is aware of all the problems I've found on this sled, and when I had to replace the turbo he offered to buy the original off of me to help with costs because he was more concerned with how he was perceived than making money on a sled sale. I declined his offer then because I wasn't looking for charity believing that he thought he had sold me a good running sled.

Now two months later I have less than ten miles on this sled since I bought it, I have several thousand dollars in parts fixing problems that existed when he sold it and so I asked him if he was willing to refund some of the purchase price to compensate for my parts/labor/lost riding time or I would sell it back to him for the purchase price and he would be receiving the sled back in MUCH better condition than he sold it. He declined both, told me I bought a used sled and stuck to his story that it ran great when he sold it.

Andrew does not work on his own sleds so I believe he didn't know about some of the problems. But there is no possible way this sled ran properly when it was sold. I wouldn't recommend buying a sled from him.
 
Last edited:

dexter

Active member
Lifetime Membership
Dec 11, 2007
312
41
28
hate to say it but thats the chance you take when buying a used sled, especially a turbo one. at least he offered to help with turbo costs ( u should of taken the money rather than bashing him here).Remember what is in good condition to some is not precieved as good condition to others. I would not of refunded u any money either or bought the sled back. If you wanted new u should of bought new. I hope you get the sled figured out and have lots of fun with it, we have all been there and thats why i buy new
 
I
Nov 26, 2007
2,866
1,337
113
hate to say it but thats the chance you take when buying a used sled, especially a turbo one. at least he offered to help with turbo costs ( u should of taken the money rather than bashing him here).Remember what is in good condition to some is not precieved as good condition to others. I would not of refunded u any money either or bought the sled back. If you wanted new u should of bought new. I hope you get the sled figured out and have lots of fun with it, we have all been there and thats why i buy new

This isn't meant to bash him, simply to warn others. I always do a search for a persons name on the forum before doing business with them, no one had said anything positive or negative about twsandrew when I bought the sled. Now the next guy will at least have the benefit of my experience when thinking of purchasing anything from him.
 
E

EagleRiverDee

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2009
447
391
63
Eagle River, Alaska
I guess I'm a pessimist but I always assume that when people are getting rid of a used piece of equipment (sled, car, boat) it may be because it's at the point it's turning into a money pit and time to get rid of it. Yes, I'm aware that some people properly maintain their equipment and get rid of it solely to upgrade to newer equipment but my experience is a lot of people beat the heck out of their equipment, do not properly maintain it, and then dump it as soon as it starts having problems more expensive than they want to repair. We bought a used sled for my step-son that was that way (owners had done a poor rebuild job and had been using it to race on sand) and a used car that the owner had disconnected the battery to get all the warning lights to turn off just before we bought it. Personally I'd rather go thru the expense of buying new and get the warranty and know what I'll be spending every month in payments rather than deal with unknown monthly expenses and the inconveniences of failures.
 

Givemeaboost

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Nov 26, 2007
991
157
43
Great Falls, MT
I don't want to scare you but 27# is alot of boost and possibly did some damage to your pistons. It only takes about 4 or 5 second of detonation to start melting the pistons.


Ken.....
 
B
Dec 5, 2010
223
142
43
This is a shady deal for sure! Ive had the honor in helping him rebuild this sled since receiving it and needless to say its been a headache to say the least. He honeslty only listed about half of what really has been wrong. It was sent after a recent "service" but showed up a quart low on oil, 0 coolant in the resevoir's, and a quart low on that as well in the system. The turbo was a joke, the intake looked like somebody threw bb's at it while running, the center cartridge was the most blown up turbo I have seen, not kinda bad but crap. Every vacuum line was junk, some of the worst wiring I have ever seen, melted wires everywhere, etc etc etc. This sled would idle when we recieved it, however to say it would run or even build any type of consistant boost or runability is a bold faced lie. I build these for a living, im a tech and a dealer, however I can honestly say I would have never sold a sled in this condition to a customer or even consider it for that matter. It was rode hard and put away broke, not wet. The condition he sold it in was not as advertised, or anywhere near it for that matter and if it was just "serviced" its time to change dealers or mechanics, which ever comes first. Yes, it has all the right pieces to be a beast of a sled and run like mad, however it the condition we got it in a 440 would be more fun and less hastle. Its a shame to think there are people out there that can feel good about themselves after a deal like this.
 
T

twsandrew

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2007
678
152
43
I really didn't want to get into this here but every story has two sides.

1 - I buy stuff to ride it. I run a software company and have no time to turn any wrenches. The only thing I have every done to that sled is tighten the M10 bolts and the track. I can say as honestly as possible that I thought I sold a sled that ran well. Beyond personal opinion - the last time I ran this sled was at the Tony Grove shootout at the end of last season. On 116 around 21lbs it was the strongest sled up there as witnessed by dozens of people. There were many there who know sleds and may rode it and can attest to it not having a single burble stumble or anything. We all traded sleds so many can attest to this.
2 - At the beginning of this year I had two people go over it before it was sent to Mike. I have receipts for this. I was told the following - the oil and coolant was changed, they found some cracking fuel lines which were replaced and everything else I was told looked good. As you know in Utah we had zero early season snow. In Dec Zeb and I went up to Tony Grove to take a look and there was too little snow to do anything but put around. The sled smoked when I started it up and I worried about that but I was told it was just front sitting and oil pooling in the IC. I was told to get it on boost for a bit on the train and it would burn off. I was skeptical but I did just that and it didn't smoke at all for the rest of the day. When it was serviced they didn't have plugs so I paid someone else to do that before it was packed and sent to Mike. I didn't ride this sled much but when I did it always ran perfect. I only had two issues with it. A crack in the fuel tank which can happen to Impulse tanks and a bushing went out on the return from the turbo which leaked some oil. Other than that is never missed a beat which can be attested to by many.
3 - My biggest issue here is that I am accused of purposely doing this. I realize how this can look from their side but I was proactively mailing Mike asking how it was as I truly thought he would love it. If I knew I did something bad would I be communicating with him proactively.

I feel bad for this, I apologized and offered him an olive branch in the form of cash (which ten people told me was silly) which he didn't take. I am sorry the sled is not in the condition he thought it was but I am completely honest in what I thought I had sold him. The only clue I had about anything being wrong was the smoke on start up after it had sat for 6 months. That is why I offered to pay for the turbo. I won't come back to this thread and I am sorry this happened but I feel there are two sides to every story and that I wanted to give you mine. I can completely be completely honest with myself in saying I had no idea I was selling a problem sled or I would not have sold it.
 
M
Mar 7, 2008
534
191
43
I guess I'm a pessimist but I always assume that when people are getting rid of a used piece of equipment (sled, car, boat) it may be because it's at the point it's turning into a money pit and time to get rid of it. Yes, I'm aware that some people properly maintain their equipment and get rid of it solely to upgrade to newer equipment but my experience is a lot of people beat the heck out of their equipment, do not properly maintain it, and then dump it as soon as it starts having problems more expensive than they want to repair. We bought a used sled for my step-son that was that way (owners had done a poor rebuild job and had been using it to race on sand) and a used car that the owner had disconnected the battery to get all the warning lights to turn off just before we bought it. Personally I'd rather go thru the expense of buying new and get the warranty and know what I'll be spending every month in payments rather than deal with unknown monthly expenses and the inconveniences of failures.

While I respect what you are saying I bought two used sleds from snowest members and they were great. I keep my equipment always meticulously serviced and to date have sold 6 used units and received calls from nobody about problems with them.
It is buyer beware for sure, but there are good used sleds/well maintained out there. And there are new sleds that even with a warranty are a pain for the numerous trips to the dealer (and even if there's a warranty they are in the shop, not being ridden).
 

Jeff C

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Jul 4, 2001
2,271
1,009
113
59
Mahtomedi, MN
I really didn't want to get into this here but every story has two sides.

1 - I buy stuff to ride it. I run a software company and have no time to turn any wrenches. The only thing I have every done to that sled is tighten the M10 bolts and the track. I can say as honestly as possible that I thought I sold a sled that ran well. Beyond personal opinion - the last time I ran this sled was at the Tony Grove shootout at the end of last season. On 116 around 21lbs it was the strongest sled up there as witnessed by dozens of people. There were many there who know sleds and may rode it and can attest to it not having a single burble stumble or anything. We all traded sleds so many can attest to this.
2 - At the beginning of this year I had two people go over it before it was sent to Mike. I have receipts for this. I was told the following - the oil and coolant was changed, they found some cracking fuel lines which were replaced and everything else I was told looked good. As you know in Utah we had zero early season snow. In Dec Zeb and I went up to Tony Grove to take a look and there was too little snow to do anything but put around. The sled smoked when I started it up and I worried about that but I was told it was just front sitting and oil pooling in the IC. I was told to get it on boost for a bit on the train and it would burn off. I was skeptical but I did just that and it didn't smoke at all for the rest of the day. When it was serviced they didn't have plugs so I paid someone else to do that before it was packed and sent to Mike. I didn't ride this sled much but when I did it always ran perfect. I only had two issues with it. A crack in the fuel tank which can happen to Impulse tanks and a bushing went out on the return from the turbo which leaked some oil. Other than that is never missed a beat which can be attested to by many.
3 - My biggest issue here is that I am accused of purposely doing this. I realize how this can look from their side but I was proactively mailing Mike asking how it was as I truly thought he would love it. If I knew I did something bad would I be communicating with him proactively.

I feel bad for this, I apologized and offered him an olive branch in the form of cash (which ten people told me was silly) which he didn't take. I am sorry the sled is not in the condition he thought it was but I am completely honest in what I thought I had sold him. The only clue I had about anything being wrong was the smoke on start up after it had sat for 6 months. That is why I offered to pay for the turbo. I won't come back to this thread and I am sorry this happened but I feel there are two sides to every story and that I wanted to give you mine. I can completely be completely honest with myself in saying I had no idea I was selling a problem sled or I would not have sold it.

You thought the sled ran fine..................

You thought there were no problems with it...........

The REALITY of the situation is what you thought to be true was incorrect.........

Intentionally or UNINTENTIALLY, the sled was misrepresented.

I was thinking if it were me and I was selling this sled, what would I do in this situation........

I would have asked the buyer what he thought a good outcome for him would be. In other words, WHAT IS FAIR AND HONORABLE TO DO IN THIS SITUATION.

Let that be your guide.......

Let me put it this way. In giving you the benefit of the doubt, if you could rewind time back to prior to the sale knowing what you know today, would you have fixed the problems, or reduced the price of the sled to accommodate someone else (Who is buying the sled) to fix it and get it back to "what was initially advertised and represented"

That is how you should conduct yourself from this point forward (Even with this sale)

Listen, everyone knows buying used equipment comes with a certain amount of risk. For example, you buy a truck, and 2 weeks after you buy it, the tranny goes out. Thats life everyone gets it. That is completely different than if the guy takes blind delivery of that truck and the tranny is already fried on it.

That is what we have here. Using the truck example, the seller said the tranny was fine. The buyer gets the truck and notices that it does not even shift into forward (Tranny is fried).

The first example is buyer having bad luck. The second example is the buyer getting screwed by the seller (Knowingly or unknowingly)

Make no mistake, "knowingly or unknowingly" it does not matter. The product was not received as advertised.....

MAKE IT RIGHT!
 
Last edited:
J

judger101

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2008
342
133
43
37
Washburn, ND
well if he truly didnt know it was in that bad of shape, its sad that he knew that little about his snowmobile, and or that his mechanics were that poor. i like to mess around with my sleds a little bit, but for the majority of my larger work i take it in to a mechanic. i KNOW that they are good guys or i wouldnt take it in to them, i do research and get references before hand, especially with turbo work. i know that it is BUYER BEWARE, but come on.....

you hit the nail on the head too jeff imho. buyer beware or not, i couldnt live with it if i screwed someone that bad, (unknowingly or knowinly)
 
Last edited:

PJ-Hunter

Paid Premium Member
Lifetime Membership
Jan 31, 2006
29,663
4,671
113
50
Kremmling, Colorado
I would NEVER buy a sled from somebody and not put my own eyeball on it. You see these stories all of the time.

"I live in BFE, 2500 miles from this guy and I bought his sled without looking at it, I took his word that it was cherry and I paid a small fortune for it, to have it shipped, dic*ed with in customs and then I got it and it sucked hippo nutz"

IMO, shame on you for doing that. I have never heard of a transaction like that ever ending up good. Shame on him for fibbing, but he tried to make it right by giving you some $$ back. You refused. As far as I am concerned you shouldn't be complaining. He tried to right the wrong, most guys would tell you to f*ck off, or ignore your calls and emails. He didn't.
 
1

1MEX

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2008
2,133
1,391
113
915 to the 801
www.wr-products.com
My story..

I was at Tonys last year and did see the sled run flawless... LAST spring. It was ran as a turbo should be rode. Used sled should expect to be worked on.
My story...
This year I did too bought a used sled for my boy, may I add from a good friend and one from our riding group. I Was told the same thing.. "Flawless, strong, good runner, no problems, ORIGINAL MILES. Took it home. Rode it for the first time two weeks after purchase. Ran rough.. Took it home and found broken ground wires, broken Ypipe, broken stearing joint, and to top it off, No speedo cable. When I questioned the speedo, i was simply told, "I think I have it at home" . So yeah, what runs good for one, can be a headach for others. I still payed asking price and didn't get any offer to fix this or refunds of some kind. My bad for trusting.
By him offering to help in some form , any form, is more than most would of done. If you refuse the help, like Pj said,for as minimal as it was or for feeling like it was charity, that is not a sellers problem after that.
Sucks it had so many issues. Good luck getting it fixed and back on the snow. That sled did rock...
MY .02 :beer;:beer;:beer;
 
Last edited:
I
Nov 26, 2007
2,866
1,337
113
IMO, shame on you for doing that. I have never heard of a transaction like that ever ending up good. Shame on him for fibbing, but he tried to make it right by giving you some $$ back. You refused. As far as I am concerned you shouldn't be complaining. He tried to right the wrong, most guys would tell you to f*ck off, or ignore your calls and emails. He didn't.

Shame on me for trusting a fellow rider and taking their word? I hope I'm never as jaded as you sir. I have bought one other sled off this forum from Washington, the sled was in better than advertised condition and had zero issues.

As for his offer to buy the turbo, he offered me $300 less than the replacement turbo cost. Not exactly a "make it right" type offer.
 
B
Dec 5, 2010
223
142
43
I would NEVER buy a sled from somebody and not put my own eyeball on it. You see these stories all of the time.

"I live in BFE, 2500 miles from this guy and I bought his sled without looking at it, I took his word that it was cherry and I paid a small fortune for it, to have it shipped, dic*ed with in customs and then I got it and it sucked hippo nutz"

IMO, shame on you for doing that. I have never heard of a transaction like that ever ending up good. Shame on him for fibbing, but he tried to make it right by giving you some $$ back. You refused. As far as I am concerned you shouldn't be complaining. He tried to right the wrong, most guys would tell you to f*ck off, or ignore your calls and emails. He didn't.

Funny you mention ignoring calls and emails, at first he didnt but once the problems started mounting up and he became aware he all to often couldnt be reached. Also didnt supply a title for the sled for over a month after sled was delivered, kind of hard to insure a sled with no title. Also never advetised the bent tunnel, blown out front end bushings, all of them not just a couple, well, i could go on again. Yes its used and you take a chance, especially with a turbo sled but if you honestly dont know chit about what your selling and obviously neither does your "dealer" dont sell it or advertise it as a perfectly good running "straight" sled. All you had to do is lift the hood to know this thing was crap and issues everywhere. I understand you are a computer guru or whatever, but cmon man, common sense goes a long way. Yeah, icr got burned on this one and we are trying hard to make it right but its VERY costly. He(andrew) said he was more worried about icr being happy with it and do anything he could versus ruinning his reputation but your actions speak louder than your words my friend, and your reputation in my eyes aint so good. Ill be putting up a video in a few of the first ride on this sled, its only 5 minutes and you people be the judge........
 
W

whitegold46

Well-known member
Mar 3, 2008
128
103
43
Smithers, B.C.
Just my 2 cents worth....

I've bought used sleds / quads before and I insist on a pre-purchase inspection. They usually run about $100 but they are SO worth it.... they tell all.... assuming you have a good / reputable mechanic doing it.
 
Z
Oct 8, 2003
1,410
456
83
44
Utah
Sucks you ran into these problems. I totally understand the frustration. I rode with Andrew early this year and it was hitting rev limiter. I jumped on it and it was hitting 25 psi. I adjusted the boost controller several times and got it down to 14. I don't know if he rode it after that ride or not.. But at that point it honestly ran great. A/F was mid 12's and the fuel box was working fine. There was no way he could of known about the wastegate diaphragm unless he took it a part (which he had no reason to do). Neither would he have known the fuel box had anything wrong with it because it was hitting proper a/f ratios at that point .

I would look at adjusting your clutching. A lot of time people mistake a 4 stroke for not running right to a lot of things including fuel boxes/boost leaks ect when all along it was hitting rev limiter, and just needed some clutch weight. This of course if you got the boost under control.

Obviously there were some issues but I don't see where these problems are costing thousands of dollars. The most expensive problem was the turbo which he offered to pay for (he told me he offered 1500) . Wastegate diaphragms 50, having someone weld the header maybe 100. Fuel box 350.
 
Last edited:
D
Feb 28, 2011
517
311
63
BC, Canada
I'm simply amazed a guy can know so little about his sled... especially a guy running a full on mod sled. (Judging by his sig, 2 full on mods) Amazing.

With that being said... the guy offered to pay to help make things right. Then your publicly shame him after you denied his help.
 
Last edited:
I
Nov 26, 2007
2,866
1,337
113
Sucks you ran into these problems. I totally understand the frustration. I rode with Andrew early this year and it was hitting rev limiter. I jumped on it and it was hitting 25 psi. I adjusted the boost controller several times and got it down to 14. I don't know if he rode it after that ride or not.. But at that point it honestly ran great. A/F was mid 12's and the fuel box was working fine. There was no way he could of known about the wastegate diaphragm unless he took it a part (which he had no reason to do). Neither would he have known the fuel box had anything wrong with it because it was hitting proper a/f ratios at that point .

I would look at adjusting your clutching. A lot of time people mistake a 4 stroke for not running right to a lot of things including fuel boxes/boost leaks ect when all along it was hitting rev limiter, and just needed some clutch weight. This of course if you got the boost under control.

Obviously there were some issues but I don't see where these problems are costing thousands of dollars. The most expensive problem was the turbo which he offered to pay for (he told me he offered 1500) . Wastegate diaphragms 50, having someone weld the header maybe 100. Fuel box 350.

Thanks for the input but the sled is currently hooked to a boost leak tester, the soapy bubbles tell me it's not the rev limiter causing the sled to run poorly.

He did offer 1500 for the turbo, it'll end up being about $900-1000 to rebuild it when it's said and done, the turbo shop it's at is still looking for parts. Again, that was an offer to buy back the turbo, not an out right offer of cash to make things right. The new turbo/intake/oil line was $1820 shipped. The waste gate diaphragm was $95 shipped. Welding the header was $135. Welding the intercooler was $135. The fuel box was $560 shipped. That's roughly $2800, which in itself is several thousand dollars and I could keep going.
 

Mag

Well-known member
Lifetime Membership
Nov 26, 2007
11,111
1,795
113
53
Fairbanks Ak
I dont feel so bad about buying a sled that was missing a ton of parts now :face-icon-small-dis

Wanna trade :face-icon-small-coo
 
Premium Features