Blewett

[skis_n_skid]

(BTW - I've heard way more stories about sledders doing that than skiers, but whatever.)

Heard way more stories about? My comment wasn't based on stories or rumors, it was based on what I've seen with my own eyes. I see skiers parked in the turn around all the time. As of yet I have not once seen a snowmobile rig parked in a turn around. Not saying it doesn't happen, just haven't seen it yet.

In the other thread, the OP started right out talking about how he and his cronies are taking pictures and reporting people. Do what you feel you need to do, but to post that in a thread is like saying "ummmm I'm telling on you so there". I thought the thread had a bit of a berating/scolding tone to it. Besides that, there was no mention of any environmental concerns, just a personal agenda (you bad bad sledders made marks in the snow that I wanted to ski in).

I don't ride in wilderness areas, and I feel that I have just as much right to complain about skiers parking where they don't belong as skiers have to complain about sledders riding where they don't belong. That's what I meant by 2 way street. I don't see even a remote similarity to a criticizing wife or a scolding parent. I'm not a child, the OP is not my parent, and someone complaining on a discussion forum doesn't compare to a criticizing wife in my book.

 

[ruffryder]

I feel we buy a washington state snowmobile tabs. That means we have the right to ride where ever in the state we want to

LMAO... sure buddy!!

Heard way more stories about? My comment wasn't based on stories or rumors, it was based on what I've seen with my own eyes.

I have seen more snowmobilers parked in turnarounds then skiers. Did you miss that thread about the red vehicle up in Baker?

In the other thread, the OP started right out talking about how he and his cronies are taking pictures and reporting people. Do what you feel you need to do, but to post that in a thread is like saying "ummmm I'm telling on you so there".

Or it could be a warning to other snowmobilers that don't know that this behavior is going on. Yah, it was a warning, but it was also a heads up that there is an issue here, and it is going to be dealt with sooner or later.

I don't ride in wilderness areas, and I feel that I have just as much right to complain about skiers parking where they don't belong as skiers have to complain about sledders riding where they don't belong. That's what I meant by 2 way street.

No one is saying you don't have the right to voice your concerns. When someone voices concerns about the actions of a few that belong to your group (snowmobiliers) why is the response "well you guys are bad too". It sounds like a come back, like a justification. It has NOTHING to do with riding in wilderness and that it isn't legal. NOTHING. Reminds me of arguing with my sister when I was younger.

Why are people trying to discuss the justification of wilderness? That isn't the issue here. ALL snowmobilers think this is BS. Even the OP said he got kicked out of his trap line when it went wilderness. This isn't the point. The point is that there are many snowmobilers who ride wilderness because they don't care, because they used to ride it before it was wilderness and because they think no one knows. Well, I guess it is time to realize that people do know... and they are keeping record. Yah, it sounds like tattle tailing, but maybe they wouldn't have to if snowmobilers would just follow the law.

 

[skis_n_skid]

No one is saying you don't have the right to voice your concerns. When someone voices concerns about the actions of a few that belong to your group (snowmobiliers) why is the response "well you guys are bad too". It sounds like a come back, like a justification. It has NOTHING to do with riding in wilderness and that it isn't legal. NOTHING. Reminds me of arguing with my sister when I was younger.

I didn't post anything to justify riding in the wilderness. The first thing I posted in this thread was "I agree that sledders who ride in non-motorized areas are inconsiderate jerks who give other sledders a bad name".

One has "NOTHING" to do with the other? It seemed to me that this thread was about people being where they aren't supposed to be, and in doing so, causing problems for others. If the OP wants people on here to pass the word along, or somehow try to get through to the guilty individuals, I just thought that maybe he could return the courtesy and put out a "heads up" on that end.

In the end, I seriously doubt that there is anything, short of stricter enforcement and stiffer penalties, that will make these people stop doing what they're doing.

 

[hurleyboarder21]

ruffy making a valid point !!!!! cool

The point is that there are many snowmobilers who ride wilderness because they don't care, because they used to ride it before it was wilderness and because they think no one knows. Well, I guess it is time to realize that people do know... and they are keeping record. Yah, it sounds like tattle tailing, but maybe they wouldn't have to if snowmobilers would just follow the law

good work ruffy


we can argue about not hurting anything.... the parking....

but the REALITY of this issue as it is now..... is as stated above.

 

[Randonnee]

Interesting about the Blewett lot...last time I was there pickups with van trailers were double-parked, there was an older Chevy pickup with an old snomo frame in the bed and a trailer parked in the turnaround- all day. And yes, I have called the law about skiers (!) hogging the Sno Park and pitching tents (true).

Anyone who buys the Permit may park in a Sno Park, eh? I am not aware of any Regulation (I have looked) about parking in a Sno Park (someone please post if such exists). Without rules, then we just need to be civil to each other. Interesting to hear of vandalism and see threats of such...such is just criminal behavior. It would be silly to think folks are not capable of defending their property and person just because they do not seem to be in your peer group...again, society is oiled by civility and framed by the Law..

 

[Randonnee]

The plowed non -Sno Park areas are not subject to any rules or Regs stating that you may not park your snomo rig there- it is general USFS Land. Anyone with a lawful Permit may park in a Sno Park. Conversely anyone without a Permit is unlawfully parked. Not a us/ them issue... Permits are purchased by snomo riders but also by skiers!

According to Officials whom I have asked, RVs parked for camping that are tow rigs are technically legal, it is interesting how the subject of tents was raised here but not RVs. Tents are clearly unlawful in a Sno Park, I have called the Law and met with Officials in regard to skiers taking Sno Park parking for tents, tables at Hog Loppet etc.

There is no regulation for Sno Park parking except turnaround, so anyone may park close to your snomo trailer lawfully, get over it (please post Regs if I am wrong). If my trailer is blocked, I just pull out and go to where I may load. Are some so lazy and weak that they cannot drive their rig? No one is morally superior because you ride a snowmobile. With limited parking why not park the lot full- or do snowmobilers believe folks should not park at all so that the may have 10 ft behind their trailer?

It is also a hoot that snomo riders sometimes take an attitude that they are 'tougher' than skiers who climb mountains on skis for hours at a time- bwaaa haaa haaa, just keep yer tough-guy attitude to yourself because it is bs and we all just need to be civil to each other. Perhaps one should not mistakenly assume that polite or civil behavior is weakness...

Deepdiver it was not stated by me that Tronsen was Wilderness, it is a long-standing Non-Motorized Area. One of my neighbors worked on cutting the original Lilleby (Haney Meadow) Trail in the '60s, another neighbor in USFS enlarged the ski trail system at Tronsen after that. I logged on both sides of Blewett in the '80s so I became familiar, and have snowmobile-skitoured there since the '80s.

Deepdiver from Marysville? Lots of days at Blewett? Whatever, Your claim to SAR, yawn, others have done that and I have no need to give you a comparo, and it does not pertain to this discussion nor does attitude.

Hog Loppet is not 'mine,' I think it is a joke and I do not appreciate the attitude of the Organizers and skiers who think they own that road that is groomed all year with Sno Park funding. I believe that HL skiers need to be required to stay on their 1/2 of the road, that snowmobiles should not be limited because of HL. A few years ago, I was at Blewett Sno Park when HL Organizers took over 60% of the Lot with tents, stoves, Cascade EMS in the turnaround- that was unacceptable. I met/ communicated with USFS Officials and communicated with WA State Parks Sno Park Officials about the unreasonable/ unlawful taking of a State facility (Sno Park) by skiers/ HL, the situation was corrected then, I was not around HL in recent past years to see. HL skiers park the night before, against the Agreement as they are supposed to ride the HL bus! The problem is, they may Lawfully park the lot full if they have a Permit. Because of all of this, I oppose Hog Loppet and have not yet but have considered lobbying against HL. I think that Hog Loppet is inappropriate use of that area.

Yeah, have a nice day. I have enjoyed meeting and talking to many snowmobilers, been helped and helped other snowmobilers. I have not really encountered much attitude from snowmobilers, more from skiers in regard to my snowmobile. However this belligerent crap and tough guy talk here hopefully is anonymous false courage. This skier is no weeny, I wish to be civil, but in the front or backcountry I would not back away from some aggressive belligerent punk, I am prepared and capable and such a punk would be quite surprised by a skier- do not assume that a skier is a helpless puss. Let's all be civil to each other, please.

 

[diamonddave]

Deepdiver from Marysville? Lots of days at Blewett? Whatever, Your claim to SAR, yawn, others have done that and I have no need to give you a comparo, and it does not pertain to this discussion nor does attitude

Is this necessary? You had been pretty respectful stating your case until this. Why the insinuations based on assumptions? If Deepdiver's claim to SAR doesn't pertain to this discussion, then why the need to discredit the statement?

 

[Randonnee]

Is this necessary? You had been pretty respectful stating your case until this. Why the insinuations based on assumptions? If Deepdiver's claim to SAR doesn't pertain to this discussion, then why the need to discredit the statement?

Well, sir, that was a sharp rhetorical response to a statement used to enhance credibility.

I think the point is that anyone holding a Sno Park Permit may park there.

I will endeavor to be respectful but forthright and wish to stay out of useless pissing contests, thank you. But that is not to say I wish to be a punching bag for punks or whatever.

It just seems that it is time to assert one's rights against an undertone of if someone skis then they are a puss or deserve derision or should not use a Sno Park or snowmobilers have more rights or whatever. I ride a snowmobile probably more days than many, at least 50-60 days, since I backcountry ski 80+ days per season. In spite of the fact that I own snowmobiles, it seems according to some that I and skiers are deserving of a certain amount of aggressive crap. Nope, we should all try to respect each other, but do not mistake civility for weakness.

So yeah, I was pushing it. But let's just establish that snowmobilers and skiers are folks, good folks. Let us state that belligerance or assuming a stance of 'I am superior' is misguided and uncivil.

 

[Randonnee]

Hey DiamondDave...he has not met myself or Tayloystoys you can tell. He would have a different tone thats for sure. No one said a thing about being a bad arse except for Rondumbdeedee. I Only mentioned that there would have been something said to those that are so inconsiderate.

Next time your there Know it all...read the frickin signs..Pipe creek and Swak are clearly posted no snowmobiles as are many other non-motorised snowparks around the state. And so youe neighbors a logger..BFD..whats your point..you were there before me or something... get a broom and brush out the sled tracks than you wont see them.

Parking on someones Arse iS BS in a snow park. I am talking 4 inches from the front bumper and a few from the back...they were under the beaver tail of the sled deck..you were not there so you dont have a clue!

So close that you can hardly get out. On snow and ice that is an accident waiting to happen...Its about respect but you seem to not have any so you wouldnt understand. You are not worth the time of day so you get no more responses frem me. You sure want to speak out loudly for someone that hasnt contributed to this site with anything intelligent.

Just to let you know RonDumdeedee...I only recently moved to the wet side. Get a life!

Well then, those words sound like tough-guy talk attempting intimidation. That is what I was speaking about. And some name calling to boot, wow. Yeah, considerate parking is warranted, but so is considerate and civil behavior. All folks holding a Permit have equal rights in a Sno Park,

 

[Randonnee]

You amaze me...you talk respectful and say "Cant we all just get along" then you take a shot at DiamondDave. I have met Diamond Dave...and you would talk differently had you met him.

That was a shot? Hardly, but if anyone disagrees here are some such children that they get all upset? You need to work on your reading skills and should have finished 4th Grade. You said that you were going away, bye bye? FYI that was a 'shot'

 

[skis_n_skid]

The plowed non -Sno Park areas are not subject to any rules or Regs stating that you may not park your snomo rig there- it is general USFS Land. Anyone with a lawful Permit may park in a Sno Park. Conversely anyone without a Permit is unlawfully parked. Not a us/ them issue... Permits are purchased by snomo riders but also by skiers!

Since you said you ride a snowmobile, I would think that you would know that there are motorized and non-motorized parking permits. The permits for motorized say "snowmobile parking permit". Crystal Springs sno park is a shared use parking area where motorized parking and non-motorized parking are in separate areas. It is well patrolled and they WILL give tickets to anybody who is not parked properly. Unfortunately, most shared parking areas are not segregated, and skiers rudely park too close to rigs like the world revolves around them. I don't know what kind of fuster cluck is going on at Blewett, but it sounds like there is only one parking area for motorized use (a shared use parking area), and skiers have non-motorized parking areas but don't use them until they fill the shared use parking area. Sledders can't park in non-motorized parking areas. Even it they could, what good would it do if there isn't any access to motorized riding areas from the parking area?

There is no regulation for Sno Park parking except turnaround, so anyone may park close to your snomo trailer lawfully, get over it (please post Regs if I am wrong). If my trailer is blocked, I just pull out and go to where I may load. Are some so lazy and weak that they cannot drive their rig? No one is morally superior because you ride a snowmobile. With limited parking why not park the lot full- or do snowmobilers believe folks should not park at all so that the may have 10 ft behind their trailer?

Ten feet behind a trailer would just be barely enough room to load if you have a tilt trailer. If you have a ramp, 10 ft is not nearly enough room to load. From what I see, most sledders leave quite a bit more than 10 ft between the back of their trailer/rig and the rig behind them. IMO, it is inconsiderate, rude, and irresponsible to leave 15+ ft between rigs, and I feel those people get what they deserve if some skier parks their Subaru in that space.

On the other hand, 8-10 ft is a fair amount of distance to leave between rigs. If I have 8-10 ft behind me and 8-10 ft in front of me, I have just enough room to pull up, put the ramp in place and load the sleds. To imply that sledders are somehow out of line by leaving 8-10 ft between rigs portrays an extremely myopic point of view and self-centered attitude IMO. Since there was clear sarcasm in your comment about the 10 ft of space, one can only deduce that you are one of the people who feel there's nothing wrong with parking your car in that 10 ft of space and blocking in people who are correctly parked. I think now I'm starting to realize why so many sledders leave 15 ft or so between rigs. I guess they figure that if they only leave 8-10 ft, some inconsiderate people would just park their Subarus in the tight spaces and block them in.

It is also a hoot that snomo riders sometimes take an attitude that they are 'tougher' than skiers who climb mountains on skis for hours at a time- bwaaa haaa haaa, just keep yer tough-guy attitude to yourself because it is bs and we all just need to be civil to each other. Perhaps one should not mistakenly assume that polite or civil behavior is weakness...

Yeah, have a nice day. I have enjoyed meeting and talking to many snowmobilers, been helped and helped other snowmobilers. I have not really encountered much attitude from snowmobilers, more from skiers in regard to my snowmobile. However this belligerent crap and tough guy talk here hopefully is anonymous false courage. This skier is no weeny, I wish to be civil, but in the front or backcountry I would not back away from some aggressive belligerent punk, I am prepared and capable and such a punk would be quite surprised by a skier- do not assume that a skier is a helpless puss. Let's all be civil to each other, please.

Somebody had a tough-guy attitude? I must have missed it. Yours is the only post I've seen with anybody puffing out their chest and assuming the tough guy pose.

 

[NWGooser]

Wow!

I hope I didn't start all this hate and discontent with my original post... Can't we all just get along? There is room in the mountains for all of us.

Just like there is room for all of God's little creatures. Usually right next to the mashed potatoes

 

[Kordero]

this is stupid. Someone should just delete this whole thread.

 

[skis_n_skid]

If it wasnt for the local snowmobile club in Wenatchee your Hog Loppet or whatever it's called cross country ski race/tour would be non existant. The snowmobile club vollunters their groomer, their money their labor and their backs to brake the trail for you from the beehive. They are also the ones that do the SAR work when skiers are lost and or injured. They are also the ones that pack out the injured skiers for free with their own gas, oil, insurance and machine and time. I bet you thought it was your tax dollars that paid for the Search and Rescue efforts in this Poorly managed State.

Doesn't some of the money from snowmobile registration go towards grooming of non-motorized areas? I wonder how many groomed trails there would be in this state for x country skiing if not for the money generated from snowmobile registration.

 

[deepdiver]

dont think so..I could be wrong(has this State ever misappropriated funds before?) The Non motorized snopark fees pay for the cross country grooming. I wonder where the money comes from for the new groomers? Hmmmmm.

As far as parking by skiers basically blocking a safe escape route of another vehicle see item two.


Code of Ethics
Maximize your winter enjoyment by following this Winter Recreation Code of Ethics:

1.I will respect all public and private property and the rights of all winter recreationists to enjoy the beauty.
2.I will park considerately without blocking other vehicles or impeding access to trails.
3.I will keep to the right when meeting other winter recreationists and yield the right of way to downhill traffic.
4.I will slow down and use caution when approaching or overtaking another.
5.I will respect designated areas, trail use signs, and established ski tracks.
6.When stopping, I will not block the trail.
7.I will not disturb wildlife and will avoid areas posted for its protection or feeding.
8.I will not litter and I will pack out everything I packed in.
9.I realize that my destination and travel speed are determined by my equipment, ability, terrain, weather and traffic on the trail. In case of an emergency, I will volunteer assistance.
10.I will not interfere with or harass others, recognizing that people judge all skiers or snowmobilers by my actions.

 

[Randonnee]

dont think so..I could be wrong(has this State ever misappropriated funds before?) The Non motorized snopark fees pay for the cross country grooming. I wonder where the money comes from for the new groomers? Hmmmmm.

As far as parking by skiers basically blocking a safe escape route of another vehicle see item two.


Code of Ethics
Maximize your winter enjoyment by following this Winter Recreation Code of Ethics:

1.I will respect all public and private property and the rights of all winter recreationists to enjoy the beauty.
2.I will park considerately without blocking other vehicles or impeding access to trails.
3.I will keep to the right when meeting other winter recreationists and yield the right of way to downhill traffic.
4.I will slow down and use caution when approaching or overtaking another.
5.I will respect designated areas, trail use signs, and established ski tracks.
6.When stopping, I will not block the trail.
7.I will not disturb wildlife and will avoid areas posted for its protection or feeding.
8.I will not litter and I will pack out everything I packed in.
9.I realize that my destination and travel speed are determined by my equipment, ability, terrain, weather and traffic on the trail. In case of an emergency, I will volunteer assistance.
10.I will not interfere with or harass others, recognizing that people judge all skiers or snowmobilers by my actions.

That is good stuff, thanks and thanks for supporting respect of non-motorized areas. Of course, no one should block anyone. However, there is no Reg requiring load/ unload space- that takes up a lot of parking for others.

The skier Sno Park Permits are valid at Blewett Sno Park etc. A lawfully parked skier has as much right as anyone, and should not be subject to aggression or vandalism- that is ill-advised. I will discuss this with Fed and County Law enforcement personnel.

I am sad to say there are more snomo tracks in the Tronsen Non-Motorized Area in spite of new signs posted by USFS in tha past month.

As I said before, "Interesting to hear of vandalism and see threats of such...such is just criminal behavior. It would be silly to think folks are not capable of defending their property and person just because they do not seem to be in your peer group...again, society is oiled by civility and framed by the Law.." I have read some aggressive stuff about skiers and parking here. Law enforcement personnel can read it also.

Yes, we should all be respectful and civil, for sure. That does not suggest that any person should be subject to derision or agression because of ill-advised attitudes.

My desire, again, is that snowmobilers stay out of USFS Non-motorized Areas.
Thank you.

 

[huFfer]

As stated, this has become stupid. The point has been made, few (if any) disagree, riding in the wilderness will screw us all in the long run. Go skiing, youre starting to sound like an idiot.

 

[Randonnee]

As stated, this has become stupid. The point has been made, few (if any) disagree, riding in the wilderness will screw us all in the long run. Go skiing, youre starting to sound like an idiot.

Actually I went skiing this afternoon, climbed and skied. I saw many recent snomo tracks in Windy Gully in the Tronsen Non-Motorized Area. I have not seen that to the extent as this year, I have skied through that area probably 200 times. And those tracks do screw up the skiing for a long time. Skiers have a very small area reserved up there compared to the extensive snomo-legal areas. So I wish snowmobilers would continue to help with this.

I did just now finish emailing my USFS contact who works on this very issue, so the word does get around that fast. Yes, USFS has a very limited number of personnel to do Enforcement, but we are going to try and help them get to the right places at the right time.

Whatever, name calling or belligerence. This is an issue that is getting increasing effort applied by many more folks than just this guy, in the end snowmobilers will lose out if they refuse to play by the rules.

 

[Kordero]

Mr. Randonnee,

I do believe you have made your point. Please refrain to post further. This is a kind request. I think a reminder of noted transgressions into Voluntary Non-Motorized or Wilderness areas once or twice a season posted on this site is appropriate. Anything further is just inciteful and not necessary.

Much Appreciated,

Kordero


now, how about the

 

[Randonnee]

Mr. Randonnee,

I do believe you have made your point. Please refrain to post further. This is a kind request. I think a reminder of noted transgressions into Voluntary Non-Motorized or Wilderness areas once or twice a season posted on this site is appropriate. Anything further is just inciteful and not necessary.

Much Appreciated,

Kordero


now, how about the

Edited to add- The Tronsen Non-Motorized Area and Pipe Creek Non-Motorized are Closures, not Voluntary Closures. USFS is actively working on more Sign placement on the upper Tronsen Area, others of us will continue to observe and report. As far as Voluntary Closures- when I was in Bean Basin two weeks ago I am happy to report that I saw no snomo tracks in that Voluntary Closure Area, and we skied great powder on that west face from Earl Peak.

Thank you for your kind tone. Nothing more to say now, but I will keep this forum advised as needed.

All the best!