BELT DRIVE DISCUSSION: PROS & CONS, COST/BENEFITS ... CHIME IN HERE.

[Snowmow]

Efficiently aside, for me it's still the durability factor. How many with a chaincase carry an extra chain and the tools to change it? How many with a belt drive carry an extra belt and the tools to change it?



For me that's the bottom line. I have a 12 pro with an avid drop case.

Your statement make sense. BUT...

How many chain case sleds has you/your buddies pulled back to the trailer because no one carried the chain and tools and most the time a chain case with them?

Belt driven sled riders CAN carry one belt and one wrench and do that swap On the hill and ride out very Easily with little weight and Space taken.

Not at all a equal comparison....

I do think, Most, not all of the time, the chain is most "durable". But more more in depth to get back out of the mountain in a fail situation

 

[mountainhorse]

A "broken belt" is not the only failure that can occur in a Belt-drive assembly.

If a belt drive sprocket is hit hard enough to break/strip a belt...The sprocket or driveshaft can get bent/damaged. Will the belt still track on a bent system?

Is a Belt-drive snow machine more exposed with wider sprockets... and wider case, when equipped with a case??

I was talking to a buddy on the phone tonight...where he cracked his chaincase last year on a road trip.... It cracked from some kind of impact where all the oil drained out and he discovered it after he got back the truck. He had to drive about 8 hours RT to get a new case... If you bend a sprocket or driveshaft, even a few 0.001"-ths ... I think you would be in the same boat.

The pulley for a belt drive is wider than a chaincase...and it seems to me that this can transfer more force to the driveshaft from an impact than a shrouded 3/4" wide chain/sprocket combo.

Do chain failures happen?... Yes.
Do they happen often?... No
When a chain failure does happen... What is the cause, most of the time?... Lack of maintenance.
Is a lot of maintenance required for a chaindrive.... No.
Does a chain fail as often as a broken belt in a belt drive? (relative numbers??)

Lots to discuss on this topic for sure.

 

[NorthMNSledder]

OK, I'll through something else in the mix on this discussion. How about for a person like me who wants to change tracks 2-5 times a season depending on snow conditions in the midwest and out west. This is what has me most interested in a belt drive system and not having to mess with with the the chaincase mess when making the swap. Depending on the season I run a short lug track here in the midwest and deep lug out west. If we get a bunch of snow in the midwest (does that even happen any more) I may leave the taller lug on but most of the time your just wreaking a tall track by leaving it on here at home for the mixture of riding we do. Some years I make this swap a few times (track and gearing). I'm picking up a new sled next season and adding a aftermarket belt drive to it is very seriously on the list for this reason only. Maybe it's a crazy idea for this reason only but it sure seems like a time saver and not having the chaincase mess to deal with each time I swap.

 

[GreenState]

I was talking to a buddy on the phone tonight...where he cracked his chaincase last year on a road trip.... It cracked from some kind of impact where all the oil drained out and he discovered it after he got back the truck. He had to drive about 8 hours RT to get a new case... If you bend a sprocket or driveshaft, even a few 0.001"-ths ... I think you would be in the same boat.

Either you're talking about Murph or you have another friend with equally ****ty luck. It was really good snow that week too...

If he had of bent a driveshaft or sprocket, I think the sprocket would be the weaker link though, we could have replaced that in an hour. The chain case is glued on, not exactly 'easy' to swap out. Everything in a belt drive setup is bolt on/off.

I'm going to run the TKI conversion on my 155 x 3" this winter. The bottom pulley is mostly protected from impact by the chain case--not exposed like it was on the Pro.

And I probably would be if I had a factory belt drive too. The Polaris belt with no tensioner has it's own issues. The lack of wrap on the pulleys seems to be a cause of problems. You also have to pull both sprockets and carry the bullet tools to install a new QD belt if you break one. IF you break a belt with the TKI, which seems pretty darn hard to do, you can just back off the tensioner and put a new belt on and then right back to correct tension. Done.

 

[mountainhorse]

Ha... you know Murph too!

Unless you huck onto a stump or rock... I just don't see a chain/sprocket combo being vunerable to a hit... Murph's chain/sprocket were fine...I believe he re-used the chain/sprocket... and, as you know... he drove back to the truck, after a full days ride without issues... It was just a crack in the case, he said he wasn't even sure when it happened. That same force or "just right" hit would have, IMO, bent some belt drive parts beyond replacing just the belt.

I just don't see enough broken chains out there to have that be a justification for the drive...especially when you look at the numbers.... with the hundreds of thousands of chain drives out there... on sleds going 120 miles per hour to your grandma on her 550 Fanner to the all the new factory equipped AXYS sleds... including timbersled snowbikes... compared to the relatively low numbers of belt-drives.

My question to you GS, with respect, is what will you be gaining from going with a belt drive on your AXYS sled and what evidence do you have to support your decision? Tom builds Super High quality parts, as does CMX and C3 for the aftermarket...no doubt about it.

I've not seen to date any evidence that that a Belt-Drive is an "upgrade" or "More efficient", or NOT, from chain-drives.

I have seen a lot of repeat "sound bites" of marketing claims without any real data behind them though...Does this mean the benefits are not there... NO... But it also does not mean that they are. The point of this thread is to discuss this drive system.... and to evaluate this based on evidence.


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[Snowmow]

Ha... you know Murph too!

I just don't see enough broken chains out there to have that be a justification for the drive...especially when you look at the numbers.... with the hundreds of thousands of chain drives out there compared to the relatively low numbers of belt-drives.



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I've seen more 2012 and 2013 Arctic cat chain case failures than I have Polaris belt drives In my group...... Both cats were low miles, one all stock, one turbo... Both well within the first service interval...

 

[mountainhorse]

Sincere question...Are Arctic Cat chain failures a MAJOR issue with the pro climb sleds?

Are they a commonplace failure?

 

[Snowmow]

Sincere question...Are Arctic Cat chain failures a MAJOR issue with the pro climb sleds?

Not sure. 2 outa 3 in my group was enough for me to recognize a real problem.

 

[Snowmow]

Here's a vid of one of the failures.

https://vimeo.com/141684037

That's the turbo one obviously, don't have pics or videos of the stock one breaking.

 

[klpilot]

First off we break chains. Not often but it does happen in our group. We're pretty hard on our sleds. When it does happen it's almost always catastrophic. The end of a road trip weekend for that guy and a really nasty time getting the sled out for all of us. It happened more frequently back in the late 90's early 2000's, but still happens rarely and is a real pain in the neck. One failure in each of the last two years. We also break belts. Those as you know are $200 and take about 5 min to change on the hill. That said we still break them more often than chains/chain case components. I do like that the belt fails before a shaft or other assembly that is more difficult and expensive to replace. It's really important to me that my equipment will not take me out for a weekend road trip. Also the stock vs stock 12 vs 13 pro was a large noticeable difference side by side same day same rider. Obviously there are other factors 12 vs 13 than just the belt drive contributing to that, but it is there. So far I like everything about the belt drive with two exceptions. 1 stock Polaris set up gearing options. 2 belt handling and break in. Actually I love the belt drive.

All that said. I went to the 3" with chain case this year. The only reason I did is because I plan on adding some serious hp and don't keep my sleds for more than a season or two. Another reason is that the 3" with chain drive has the older tougher drive shaft. When I have seen chain failures in the modern era it's on a sled with at least two seasons on it. If I was going relatively stock and keeping it longer I'd go with the 2.6 and belt drive. Hopefully I won't be dissapointed going back to the stone age!

 

[mountainhorse]

Ok... two in SnowMo's group.

Are the Arctic Cat sleds problematic in numbers in regards to the chaindrives...

How many are failing out there... do Arctic Cats have an epidemic of chain failures and what evidence do we have to support this notion?

 

[Snowmow]

Ok... two in SnowMo's group.

Are the Arctic Cat sleds problematic in numbers in regards to the chaindrives...

How many are failing out there... do Arctic Cats have an epidemic of chain failures and what evidence do we have to support this notion?

Tki said he's sold many kits to cat customers because of failures. Not a lot of price difference between the tki kit and replacing all the cat components that are junk after a chain failure. I've read about MANY of the 1100 four stroke sleds chains failing with about every piece of the drive train being blamed from just the chain and tensioner or the drive shaft flex. List goes on and on with those sleds.

 

[mountainhorse]

When I have seen chain failures in the modern era it's on a sled with at least two seasons on it.

Again, sincere question, were those chain failures you saw the result of hard riding or worn out parts or poor maint?

If an owner has a sled that has multiple seasons on it... and they are in the category of rider that sees broken chains "often"... IMO... that rider should be changing out the chain/sprockets when they become worn... I believe the same is true for a belt.

If you are a "hucker" or Turbo Chute climber... or generally are hard on your equipment... maintain it.

For the belt drive conversions that house the lower sprocket inside the there is some more protection for the sprocket than the stocker... but the sprocket does hang out past the case... and the case is not as strong without the cover on it... just a thought.

I've said it above...I have seen chains fail... it does happen VERY rarely... and when it does... other stuff can break as well.

If the rare breakage of a chain is a particular riders reason for running a belt-drive.... and the Pro's outweigh the cons... I'd say, for that person that they should invest in a belt drive.

For others... If the proven robustness of chaindrives, the cost and flexibility in gearing is more of a factor... especially when we are talking about factory installed systems....

Though in my experience... and the thousands upon thousands of posts and treads here on this very forum that I've read... chain breakage has not been an issue.

When I asked the Polaris engineers about this in 2013 "Why are the ISOC Race sleds NOT using the belt drive too?" I was told by them that the belt drive was not a good fit for the harshness of that type of operation... even with a slipper clutch on the driveshaft to minimize shock to the drive train... the belt-drives still have not been used... ISOC racers also maintain their sleds well.

In the new AXYS-Mtn released sleds... the chaincase is retained in all their "Heavy Duty" applications (Assault, SKS, 3"-Lug-PRO) ... Not just because of the gearing choices.

Installing a factory tensioner option on those sleds, if they went with a belt-drive in them, would have given them a more cost effective, and faster way to be able to run different ratios...and shave those ever important grams for bragging rights.... but they chose to design and tool up for the chaincase for real-world consumer/racer/corporate reasons.

In my view, the chaindrive AXYS-mtn sleds cost more to produce than the same model with a QuickDrive™. Polaris had to go to big expense to tool up for the AXYS-mtn chaindrive.

There are no shared parts... the cases/covers were not carryovers from flatlander AXYS sleds nor previous years. If the belt-drive could have been made as robust with the simple integration of a tensioner when they were starting from scratch... they would have done it, and it would have been easy to do. Polaris chose not to do this.

So far, for me... until more evidence is presented... the reason for running a belt-drive is lighter weight alone... and every benefit has a cost.

How much weight is that weight difference? I'd like to know....

How much actual inertial or Gyro force difference, for these actual applications, does that induce into the sled and is that perceivable?

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[rulonjj]

One thing I've noticed on the pro is they feel snappier probably due to the lower rotating mass. But the drive train also stores less energy in it so it slows down quicker as well. Are they more efficient? I doubt it. Some of them really whine. Noise is friction and lost energy.


I have a good friend with a turbo pro and a TKI tensioner on the stock belt drive. He was snapping drive belts daily it seemed. Then one day it seemed to stop. He changed the way he was riding just a little. He started letting the belt warm up instead of just romping on it and since then he only has to replace it a couple times a season.

 

[Rockpicker]

Mountainhorse hits the nail on the head. DO YOUR MAINTENANCE. I believe a lot of people "say" they do chaincase maintenance that probably have never had the cover off.

I have had one chain failure in 45 years of riding, was checked at start of season and lost lube because of plastic twine wrapped around driveshaft, 73 Cheetah.

On the topic of weight, is there any weight savings if you are carrying an extra belt and tool?

 

[Snowmow]

I have seen poo belts fail. But none have been catastrophic... Spare Belt and wrench were carried and we were back to riding in a short time. Both chain failures have been day ending occurrences one requiring the the sled to sit where it broke the chain overnight, and a pretty extravagant deal to get it out the following day. Buddy lost a day of work because of it and had a pretty nice repair bill once he got it home. This sled was the stock cat with around 500 miles on the sled... Blow a belt you clean up pieces, install new belt and your going. Blow a chain 15 miles from a trail and you have a long day or two ahead of you.

 

[Snowmow]

I can't speak for Polaris chain case because no one on my group has one. It's either all belt drive pros or chain drive cats.

 

[mountainhorse]

BOOST??

I have seen poo belts fail. But none have been catastrophic... Spare Belt and wrench were carried and we were back to riding in a short time. Both chain failures have been day ending occurrences one requiring the the sled to sit where it broke the chain overnight, and a pretty extravagant deal to get it out the following day. Buddy lost a day of work because of it and had a pretty nice repair bill once he got it home. This sled was the stock cat with around 500 miles on the sled... Blow a belt you clean up pieces, install new belt and your going. Blow a chain 15 miles from a trail and you have a long day or two ahead of you.

To be clear... this sled was a turbo Arctic Cat, Right?

What kind of boost/power?

What was his maintenance schedule?
How often did he tension his chain?
Did he change his chain lube?
I hope more than the prescribed amount for a stocker.

Most chain stretch, especially with non-HYVO silent chain, happens in the first few rides... should be adjusted after each of the rides for a while.

My question again would be...Do chain breakages for the majority of Arctic Cat mountain sled owners that follow proper maintenance happen on a

 

[Snowmow]

To be clear... this sled was a turbo Arctic Cat, Right?



What kind of boost/power?



What was his maintenance schedule?

How often did he tension his chain?

Did he change his chain lube?

I hope more than the prescribed amount for a stocker.



Most chain stretch, especially with non-HYVO silent chain, happens in the first few rides... should be adjusted after each of the rides for a while.

The video I posted was the turbo. It happened right off a trail and just got drug back to the trailer with a locked up track.... That sled had less than 1000 miles and I'm not sure of his maintenance program. Sled ran 12 psi...

The worse situation was the with the stock one with under 500 miles. Sled had nothing but a can on it.

 

[mountainhorse]

ARCTIC CAT CHAIN DRIVE TENSIONER POSITION

EDIT:... Never Mind!!
I'm getting old and unable to see lately!!