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<< ALERT >>: Federal judge says Forest Service broke law not regulating Snowmobiles!!

W

WMC

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Apr 27, 2010
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Bowl-licking moron.

And by being the ONLY PERSON ON SNOWEST to go through this thread and pass out BAD RATINGS to most of the posts, you are ensuring that you make NO friends.


You have shown despicable and wretched behavior toward me here after approving my attempt to include this forum in the conversation/ debate/ screaming match. When I was trying to start this conversation, you were trying to help guys find my identity in order to harass me personally- because of my words? You did this along with that waste of protoplasm Mod RMK... for the WA section.

It is fortunate for you that your uncle or daddy gives you a job here. Otherwise I am sure you would be on the short bus to some gov't funded day care program. Put your face back in your cereal bowl and lick the sugar, buttwipe. You are such a loser that your daddy has to buy you a website so that you may get any attention. BTW, the word is 'lose' not 'loose' -*ucktard.:biggrin1:
 

CO 2.0

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You are saying we are the ones running our mouths, but yet you post something like that? LOL, yup total hypocrite. Get the hell out of here.
 

kidwoo

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You have shown despicable and wretched behavior toward me here after approving my attempt to include this forum in the conversation/ debate/ screaming match. When I was trying to start this conversation, you were trying to help guys find my identity in order to harass me personally- because of my words? You did this along with that waste of protoplasm Mod RMK... for the WA section.

It is fortunate for you that your uncle or daddy gives you a job here. Otherwise I am sure you would be on the short bus to some gov't funded day care program. Put your face back in your cereal bowl and lick the sugar, buttwipe. You are such a loser that your daddy has to buy you a website so that you may get any attention. BTW, the word is 'lose' not 'loose' -*ucktard.:biggrin1:


Ladies and gentlemen, the true face of the Wenatchee Mounains Coalition who 'really wants to open up a mature dialogue.'

Get ahold of yourself. Or better yet, don't.
 
W

WMC

Banned
Apr 27, 2010
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Rob you want to sit on your high horse and pretend that sledders are so childish and so difficult to deal with (nice fantasy there in your baseless claim that the FS doesn't want to interact with us even though it's their job to do so), but then you run around in a little tantrum giving people bad post rankings on the internet?

Ooh, way to step to the adult dialogue there bud.

Let me clarify something for you. When you make statements like the following:



that's akin to someone telling you your sweet new fat waist skis and dynafits are more than welcome to skin around in a circle on an xc groomer. It's not reasonable, nor a 'compromise' nor demonstrative of any real understanding of the discussion at hand.

The FS avoiding a management plan regarding over snow vehicles because of sledders is just laughable. Sledders aren't the ones getting in the government's face and filing lawsuits to exclude other users.

I'll agree with your last statement in that post and I've even said it myself here. So I at least take solace in the fact that your presence provides a lucid picture to snowmobilers everwhere of what we're up against: borderline lunacy from a bunch of people too lazy to skin to the millions of square miles of the american alpine where snowmobiles are banned.

Yeah, I understand where you are coming from. No, we are not going to agree. I and many of 'us' are not anti-snowmobile, we are just anti-snowmobile when we are trying to ski and getting buzzed real close- just does not work.

So different areas of the accessible general Forest are needed, and will eventually be designated as winter non-motorized. You all can try to influence the process as fellow citizens or just stay pissed and stupid. 'We' believe that win-win is possible. The tendency here is to blame 'us' for Wilderness and demand win-lose only and at all costs.
 

kidwoo

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Yeah, I understand where you are coming from. No, we are not going to agree. I and many of 'us' are not anti-snowmobile, we are just anti-snowmobile when we are trying to ski and getting buzzed real close- just does not work.

So different areas of the accessible general Forest are needed, and will eventually be designated as winter non-motorized. You all can try to influence the process as fellow citizens or just stay pissed and stupid. 'We' believe that win-win is possible. The tendency here is to blame 'us' for Wilderness and demand win-lose only and at all costs.

Trust me, I am far more involved with the USFS offices where I live than you could ever imagine. I deal with this all summer long with mountain bikes.

What you can't seem to grasp, or are deliberately ignoring is that different areas of accessible forest ALREADY EXIST, everywhere in the American west. I'm not just talking about wilderness areas, there are tons of designated non-motor use areas beyond that. You just don't like sharing the easily accessible ones and are too lazy to walk to the areas where you have the sole domain.

I disagree with you not because I'm a sledder but because I'm a backcountry skier who's knows exactly where to go to avoid sleds. I'm really sorry you haven't figured out how to do that yet but it's not that hard.

If you've got problems with the behavior of some sledders, deal with the person and the behavior, not the entire demographic.

And jesus man, lay off all the bad post crap. You really do come across like a bitter, petty child.
 
W

WMC

Banned
Apr 27, 2010
233
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Lotta drama there, cupcake

There lies the fallacy of your mentality.
I don't know what it's like in Wenatche, but as a rule there are VERY FEW areas that exlude non-motorized users. VERY FEW. Actually NONE that I personally know of.
You have a warped sense of "share".
Unless it's legally designated to EXCLUDE someone, it's all "shared".

Where I ride, you are WELCOME to join us on your skis if you like. ABSOLUTELY welcome.
And I'll share it with you whether you can even get there or not.

I don't need a judge or court ruling to tell me that I need to "share" it. I already do. Just like I don't need a law or court ruling to tell me not to shoot at humans. Guess what...I already behave that way.

Guess what, it's ALL "shared".


Oh wait...I'm wrong. There are millions of acres designated as "W"ilderness and WSA that DO EXCLUDE any and all motorized use. They are NOT "shared".
There are also other areas that are designated "skier/snowshoer" access only and are not "shared".
I know of NO areas that are designated as unshared "motorized use only".



??? "SHARE" ????



Your desire is to exlude certain user-groups, perpetuating the elitist mentality of "snowmobiliers are different than what I want and so therefore different = wrong".
The snowmobiler's desire is to "share" among everyone.
Can't we all just get a long?
It's people like you who the Greek philosopher, Plato, was opposed to. It's the peoplemaking selfish corrupt decisions who are not capable of the democratic process.

Well then, you all like to hang onto that 'share' thing as in meaning you get to run over the world and the rest of the world is supposed to stand by and applaud you. The laws beginning in 1972 required what has been supported in the court decision. You guys think 'share' refers to we get to walk along on the snow while you buzz us, oh excuse me, you slow down and wave thus making you a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize in your own mind...

Democratic process= mob rule- is what many call for here. Our system of gov't is more complex than the democratic process, and the irony is sweet and deep that a bunch of selfish redneck snomo riders like to refer to 'the democratic process'!!!

On our local Forest the problem is real, it is acknowledged by USFS folks. But snomo riders falsely believe that the Forest was given to them :face-icon-small-dis when actually the USFS has just punted for 20+ years and avoided managing, avoided designated where snowmobiles may be ridden.
 
W

WMC

Banned
Apr 27, 2010
233
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Trust me, I am far more involved with the USFS offices where I live than you could ever imagine. I deal with this all summer long with mountain bikes.

What you can't seem to grasp, or are deliberately ignoring is that different areas of accessible forest ALREADY EXIST, everywhere in the American west. I'm not just talking about wilderness areas, there are tons of designated non-motor use areas beyond that. You just don't like sharing the easily accessible ones and are too lazy to walk to the areas where you have the sole domain.

I disagree with you not because I'm a sledder but because I'm a backcountry skier who's knows exactly where to go to avoid sleds. I'm really sorry you haven't figured out how to do that yet but it's not that hard.

If you've got problems with the behavior of some sledders, deal with the person and the behavior, not the entire demographic.

And ***** man, lay off all the bad post crap. You really do come across like a bitter, petty child.

It is not 'me', it is now the Federal Court decision upholding long-ignored law.

Interesting how you jump on the 'mine is bigger' line of argument. Yep, I can do also. I have been skitouring since Gerald Ford was President and riding snomos since Carter. Where I go to skitour with my friends and family- often using snomos to get out there- we avoid anyone else, in our few special places. But as I said, I saw the situation in reverse of what you fear. I watched the mountains taken over by snomos, very completely in some places. So I and 'we' do not believe that ALL of the Forest outside Wilderness should be open to snowmobile riding. We want our share. We acknowledge that yep snomos have a legitimate place, not our personal thing to go ride offroad but we realize other folks want to use the Forest as well....
 
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TRS

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WMC, on the Shoshone National Forest only 5%, I said only 5% is multiple use. I think 95% of the forest available for your solitude is enough. If you would like to trade playgrounds, I would gladly be an advocate for your cause. You are not a multiple use advocate by your post.. I have no problem with you having access to 100% of the forest. So leave mine alone.
I reject your comment that snowmobiles and their local and state associations do not work with the FS. We work almost on a daily basis to insure we can maintain our meager amount of available forest. We also need to purchase a registration permit to access and maintain the amenities of our passion. You sir, do not and are a parasitic problem to our parking and riding areas.
The area you refer to That is now accessed by snowmobiles is within a legal boundary. The snowmobile community has lost ground in the last decade, not gained. Your constituents at the Forest Service made that possible by the falsification of the Canada Lynx. That single event single handedly put into motion the "no net gain of trails" law in the Western States on public lands.
You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to lock any American out of their freedom to pursue happiness. I am not after yours, but you want mine.
 
W

WMC

Banned
Apr 27, 2010
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WMC, on the Shoshone National Forest only 5%, I said only 5% is multiple use. I think 95% of the forest available for your solitude is enough. If you would like to trade playgrounds, I would gladly be an advocate for your cause. You are not a multiple use advocate by your post.. I have no problem with you having access to 100% of the forest. So leave mine alone.
I reject your comment that snowmobiles and their local and state associations do not work with the FS. We work almost on a daily basis to insure we can maintain our meager amount of available forest. We also need to purchase a registration permit to access and maintain the amenities of our passion. You sir, do not and are a parasitic problem to our parking and riding areas.
The area you refer to That is now accessed by snowmobiles is within a legal boundary. The snowmobile community has lost ground in the last decade, not gained. Your constituents at the Forest Service made that possible by the falsification of the Canada Lynx. That single event single handedly put into motion the "no net gain of trails" law in the Western States on public lands.
You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to lock any American out of their freedom to pursue happiness. I am not after yours, but you want mine.

As well, sir, you also have access to 100% of the Forest. I can walk all over the Forest, but I am allowed to drive my Jeep in designated areas, or my dirt bike, and some areas are as well closed to camping or walking, I cannot just get my saw out and go drop some green trees for fun. This is management. On the Wenatchee (OWNF) very little management of where snowmobiles may be ridden has occurred. Since 1972 the law has specified such a requirement, now upheld in Federal Court (finally).

The pay-your-own way argument is quite false. I bought my WA snowmobile registration which includes a Sno Park parking Permit for $34 as I recall. Some days I do not take my snowmobile to go skitouring, so I bought a Sno Park Permit for my car- $46 for a car. This difference is because gas tax monies from snowmobile riding are directed to the Program. But the point is skiers/ snowshoers pay their way, and it is false to believe that non-motorized folks do not contribute to the economy. Several false ideas are chanted here and among riders like some strange religion...

Again, you all are citizens and may learn and engage in this process also. Or you can just rant, be nasty or negative, yadda yadda.
 
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TRS

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So here we are, apples and oranges. You have regulations that you must purchase SnowPark passes. In WY we don't have that regulation. Glad to see you are helping pay your way. You are having difficulties in your area, in return you want to impose your "must have regulations" across this free nation. You must get your facts straight, there is a no net gain law in effect. I don't believe your forest has not gone through a travel plan since the stated '70s. If they did not your constituents would have sued long ago.
Yes sir you do have an economic impact on local economies, but that footprint is not as large as the snowmobile community where they coexist. It would be interesting to have a survey comparison. Snowmobile associations do independent surveys on a regular basis. Has the WWA done one? You must leave down hill skiers out of this one, they are not using the back country. The back country is the issue at hand.
It is disrespectfull to voice your opinion on this forum and call our comments yada yada yada. These are talking points right out of the DNC handbook.
Please post up pictures of your jeep, motorcycle and other toys. In my short life I personally have not witnessed a self professed motorized user want to limit access.
I will not stoop to your tactic of giving me a negative rating on a post. You are entitled to you opinion. My job is to try and get you to the middle with facts not conjecture.
 
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S

snengineer

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Wenatchee Mountains Coalition (WMC) came here, and was allowed, to try to talk to snowmobile riders in 2010. WMC supports WWA and vice-versa. I think that some or most guys here are, of course, angry, but more importantly just keep going on without understanding laws and process regarding the Forest and how things are done. The extremist stance, the aggressive language, just drives this toward being influenced by groups such as Sierra Cub which seems to have no limit on desire to create new Wilderness and ruin our way of life. Though you like to label us, we are not usually like those labels thrown around, we want our share, many of us ride snowmobiles and skitour- but we believe that the motorized/ non-motorized or human-powered/ non human-powered uses need areas for each. USFS in many examples but not on all Forests neglected to divide up the winter Forest as required. This court decision now forces USFS to do this balanced management of the winter Forest- per longstanding law- in Idaho. As well, the decision may have nationwide implications.

It is tough to be faced with the prospect of not having snowmobile riding free reign over places such as the Wenatchee NF, but sooner or later 'you guys' will have to share. In 25 years, I have watched the reverse, I have watched the snowmobiles take over ranges of mountains that I skied on before snomos were capable of getting out there. All of the folks that I work with in Winter Wildlands are not trying to ban snowmobiles, although WWA and WMC want more areas available in winter without snowmobile riding. My own local contacts who are mostly Republcans and almost entirely professionals, guys who skitour and ride snomos, and want some balance. We, as described, are wanting to 'SHARE' instead of being shut out. WMC advocates for significant areas for non-motorized winter recreation on the Wenatchee NF. Wilderness is usually inaccessible, and on the Wenatchee very little provision for winter recreation other than snowmobile riding has occurred. This was not a problem until the technology allowed snowmobiles to ride on all sort of new terrain and take away most of the country that had been traveled only by skis and snowshoes before the new technology snowmobiles.

The real data shows such a greater number of folks who want to and do walk on the winter Forest on skis or snowshoes. This data has not been demonstrated by studies where surveyors target Sno Parks primarily. The human-powered folks are spread out in various parking locations, and one car will carry several- compared the the huge amount of parking to accommodate rigs with trailers for a few riders. One bus at our local Sno Park as is common from the city on a winter weekend will have more non-motorized users than probably days or the entire week numbers of snowmobile riders at that Sno Park. I am not trying to convince anyone these are the facts, you can rail against the reality and yadda but this overwhelming force of numbers and resources is beginning to be felt.

So I and most of my local contacts do not want to lose the ability to snowmobile back into the Forest, especially using the roads. The roads on the Wenatchee are thus far nearly all that is legally established for snowmobile riding- so 'you guys' have your work cut out for you to get some established riding areas beyond that. You have your work cut out, but you spend your time talking smack, acting out, threatening this and that, all of which no one cares. And please, do those mass demonstrations of breaking the boundaries, that will just make it go quicker.

I have heard often and from many USFS folks with a lot of years experience of how nasty it is to deal with snowmobile riders in regard to this management. We have been told directly that locally this is a primary reason why USFS would not deal with it. This Federal Court decision, if carried on throughout the USFS, will require USFS to manage the Forest and designate where snowmobiles may be ridden. The biggest mistake made is that riders think that all of the Forest that they have had free reign belongs to snowmobile riding. The mistake is, the fact appears to be that USFS folks often chose to ignore you riding all over because it is too nasty to deal with! Now there may be no choice, and the Forest level on down will be given 'cover' to proceed when it comes down from the top.

So no, I am not here to make friends. But some of my statements from 2010 are coming to fruition. I will tell you in 2013 that I believe snowmobile riders need to learn the new reality and join the process before your little fits just screw you out of all of it.




Bottom line, you want human-powered experience go to the wilderness areas that are restricted to everything imaginable (except to your superior human-powered recreation).

Everyone knows the USFS mantra is "restrict to manage" they dont want to deal with whiners like you telling them to do this and do that, they dont want to deal with redneck drunk OHV'rs who dont obey the rules so they say the heck with it and make access difficult altogether and act like they are listening to the fear mongering DB's that you associate with.

So the world keeps turning, eventually this elitist, fascist fad agenda will run out of steam among the general population and the USFS will continue to be run by politicians who are to busy being a politician.

Here is a suggestion, live what you preach!

Karma:cheer2:
 
A

Arctic Thunder

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WOW, this WMC is a dandy guy.

My guess is if we allow this guy/group to shut down the riding areas, what will happen? they will have less money for the enforcement, because as he said One bus with 50 granola's paying ONE parking pass will only go so far to pay for enforcement. So.... give this a few years and we can ride any where any time, it would even open up the WILDERNESS areas again YAHOO!!!. It will be a HUGE game of cat and mouse.

Ill say it again, I ALWAYS work to be courteous to others in the "shared" back country. WMC please don't continue to run your mouth and ruin my opinion of all the dandy lion sniffers out there.


O and please give me a big fat thumbs down. I love it!!! :)

Thunder
 

Scott

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Well then, you all like to hang onto that 'share' thing as in meaning you get to run over the world and the rest of the world is supposed to stand by and applaud you. The laws beginning in 1972 required what has been supported in the court decision. You guys think 'share' refers to we get to walk along on the snow while you buzz us, oh excuse me, you slow down and wave thus making you a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize in your own mind...

Democratic process= mob rule- is what many call for here. Our system of gov't is more complex than the democratic process, and the irony is sweet and deep that a bunch of selfish redneck snomo riders like to refer to 'the democratic process'!!!

On our local Forest the problem is real, it is acknowledged by USFS folks. But snomo riders falsely believe that the Forest was given to them :face-icon-small-dis when actually the USFS has just punted for 20+ years and avoided managing, avoided designated where snowmobiles may be ridden.

Equally as ironic that the tolerance preaching, wealth distributing, forward thinking, everyone is equal, socialistic, democrats turn into the selfish name-calling elitists.
Sounds more like a "just for me and mine" hypocrite.

Ps, you brought up the "share" thing, not me.
 
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TRS

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WMC, how did you get over here to the dark side. What is your motive here? Did you draw the short straw? Are you gathering fuel for your cause? What organization are you affiliated with? Who do you work for? I just looked, he's gone.
 
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S

snowbie

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Politics is powered by money. When people stop buying $13000 sleds, $8,000 trailers, $2000 in gear per person, aftermarket crap for the sleds, $50000 diesel trucks to pull it all and fuel for the truck and the sleds, along with registration for the trailer, truck, and each sled, they may figure out they made the wrong move.

There are a-holes in every group. Every time my group passes a non-motorized person or group we slow WAY down, give lots of room and wave. That's what nice people do.

Thinking everyone needs to have their own 2 million acres of area they can have for themselves in peaceful quiet is absurd.
 

christopher

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WMC, how did you get over here to the dark side. What is your motive here?
Did you draw the short straw?
Are you gathering fuel for your cause?
What organization are you affiliated with?
Who do you work for?
I just looked, he's gone.

Good questions....
 

smwizzz

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Short and sweet!!!

As well, sir, you also have access to 100% of the Forest. I can walk all over the Forest, but I am allowed to drive my Jeep in designated areas, or my dirt bike, and some areas are as well closed to camping or walking, I cannot just get my saw out and go drop some green trees for fun. This is management. On the Wenatchee (OWNF) very little management of where snowmobiles may be ridden has occurred. Since 1972 the law has specified such a requirement, now upheld in Federal Court (finally).

The pay-your-own way argument is quite false. I bought my WA snowmobile registration which includes a Sno Park parking Permit for $34 as I recall. Some days I do not take my snowmobile to go skitouring, so I bought a Sno Park Permit for my car- $46 for a car. This difference is because gas tax monies from snowmobile riding are directed to the Program. But the point is skiers/ snowshoers pay their way, and it is false to believe that non-motorized folks do not contribute to the economy. Several false ideas are chanted here and among riders like some strange religion...

Again, you all are citizens and may learn and engage in this process also. Or you can just rant, be nasty or negative, yadda yadda.

YOU Started the buzz!!!

Picking on someones spelling??? In a forum??? Whatever dude!!! There are peeps from all over the world here that speak different languages and don't spell english perfect, young peeps who use u r and such instead of typing full words, and peeps who just plain make a mistake once in awhile.

You were the one who stomped on those who have the right to their opinions. We don't all agree with one another... still a bit of respect is due.

You are the one who brought $$$ into the picture. Wanna compare?

My rig: $XXX Chevy Crew cab
$XXX 26 ft custom enclosed trailer
$XXX Yamaha Nytro-custom
$XXX Polaris Pro
$XXX tools, etc in trailer
$XXX Marathon Deck
At least $XXX in avy gear and Klim gear and helmuts and... etc whatever else.

Thats just my gear and I am sure I have missed lots. This doesn't include my two jetboats, my dirt bike, my Jeep, my RV and whatever else I own related to motorsports. This just includes my snow season motorsports. BTW I didn't include skiis, mountain bike, skates and any other manual stuff I do own. If you want to compare $$$ put into the economy, you just opened very large can of worms.

Frankly, I don't give a rats $SS and hate the $$$ arguement, however if you think for two seconds that driving a ski bus with 40 people to a ski hill has the same economic impact as outdoor motorsports as a whole, you are mistaken. Yes ski towns are prosperous, I won't argue. They bring chalets, condo's and buisiness to support the industry. One thing you can also be assured of is that although sledding may seem tiny in comparison, places like Revelstoke, BC and Fernie, BC would not support the industry if it was not prosperous, not to mention the local dealerships where we live and purchase our toys.


If you think we don't give back... go attend a work weekend in the summer in Revy, or one of the other BCSA affiliated clubs. They are the ones packing boulders to prevent erosion. They are the ones who put forth the effort to mark the trails and build cabins and maintain the area. I don't know of one skier who is a member of an organization such as this and/or helps to maintain their areas.


We live in FREE countries!!! We have the right to freedom of speach and press. You have the freedom to give me a negative post rating!!!

Git r Done!!!

Leave whatever ratings or comments you wish. This is my last rant regarding your intellect and genious. You may have grown old but your wisdom may be questionable!!!


Cheers...
 
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WaBackcountry

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If anyone wants info on him I can get it for you. He is a real gem and should be ignored so he will just go away.

Please don't waste your words on this guy. Its not worth your breath. If we all just put that time into writting a letter to your local forest service district or something constructive. The local forest service has been very receptive and wants to here from snowmobilers.
 

Jeff C

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Folks this is, and will be a problem until the anti access crowd gets their way and takes away our riding areas.

I find a couple of things interesting.

When Scott and others brought up the assertion of "There are already alot of areas where snowmobiling is not allowed"

WMC did not comment on that. He seems to think that "What is ours is ours, and what is yours is soon gonna be ours":

That is the trouble here. Lack of perspective in thought.

One thing is true here though folks, he is right in the sense that if we dont get involved in this management plan, guess what we will not be riding. These areas will be "managed" for us by the folks who dont want us there.

You guys in Washington, YOU HAD BETTER GET INVOLVED AND NOT SIMPLY GET ON THIS SITE AND SPOUT OFF..
 
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