Track speed gearing and clutching debate.

winter brew · Jan 26, 2011

SSWIM said:
I respectfully disagree. While there are MANY variables such as weight, approach angle, track length, suspension etc., track speed does make a BIG difference. Take identical M8 153s. Put a turbo on one. What makes this sled climb higher or stay on top of the snow better???? Track speed. More track speed results in the displacement of snow in the opposite direction in which the sled will travel. The inertia caused by the said displacement of snow is what propells the sled. Same as a mud buggy in the mud pit.

Not to start an argument, and no bash intended, but track speed IS paramount in keeping a sled on top and up over.:face-icon-small-hap

Sam

Absolutely. Take any sled and spin the track faster....that sled will go faster and climb higher, no doubt about it. Track speed is EVERYTHING when it comes to climbing. Throw in variables sled weight, track, and about a thousand other variables and a sled with less track speed can go higher.....but it takes alot to compensate for track speed. That's what every tuner strives for is spinning that track faster....whether by adding power, clutching, gearing, lightweight parts.....it all comes down to propelling and sustaining that speed.

WyoBoy1000 · Jan 26, 2011

Just to be clear, I am not saying track speed does not matter. Just that it doesn't mean because you have more than another it will go farther. you can only compare a sled to itself when judging track speed.

JSCC · Jan 26, 2011

WyoBoy1000 said:
Do you have a turbo sled or just arguing to learn something. The only reason for a gear case on big power sleds is to get the clutching off the ground. any sled running 1:1 gears you could eliminate the Gear case and attach it straight to the drive shaft (wouldn't that be cool, drop a bunch of weight and less rotating mass) that is If the drive shaft was high enough. I have seen people drop gears on m1000 and they think its the chit, but then I pull right with them or farther, but there belts might last longer. Your not going to pull overdrive gears in a M5 though, but trying to hit the perfect gear can only be done with perfect clutching and clutching has a far greater effect than gearing in these sleds. If you notice the AC sleds are all geared to hit the same speeds, the higher rpm sleds have lower gears and visa versa. To add the DD setup works on a load base performance, if you free it up with low gears to much it wont respond the same and you can loose performance of the shift.

I own three son, and you should pick someone else to argue clutching with. You are wrong in your theories!

backcountryislife · Jan 26, 2011

JSCC said:
I own three son, and you should pick someone else to argue clutching with. You are wrong in your theories!

WHOA... you two are related???

That's cool.

Btw, if you want to state absolutes, you're BOTH wrong. SOME sleds will benefit from lower gearing, some will benefit from higher. Track length, snow conditions, and a number of other factors come into play.

But to state that every sled should be geared down is just as reterdid as arguing the opposite to the absolute.

I geared a sled down last year & it fell on it's FACE. Pitiful results going to M8 gears.

JSCC · Jan 26, 2011

That's some funny sh!t, but you need to learn to read. I never said that a geared down sled is better or that every sled needs geared down. I am mearly stating that every sled needs GEARING!
A one to one ratio is impossible. Can you tell me how fast your track would be spinning with a true one to one ratio? Just a little guess, check out you tach.....

backcountryislife · Jan 26, 2011

JSCC said:
That's some funny sh!t, but you need to learn to read. I never said that a geared down sled is better or that every sled needs geared down. I am mearly stating that every sled needs GEARING!
A one to one ratio is impossible. Can you tell me how fast your track would be spinning with a true one to one ratio? Just a little guess, check out you tach.....

well... we all have GEARING in our sleds right now... I'm almost POSITIVE I've got some gearing in my DD, let me look quick though! Btw, in talking about a 1:1... I'm pretty sure we're talking about in the sheaves not a straight 1:1 motor to track ratio...

What Wyo & I have said in the past is that the gearing down fad is, for MANY people, pointless.
To me though, it really depends on a bunch though to say that. I feel that the PNW riders that ride on stiffer snow are better served by lower gears than those of us on a rocky mtn snowpack, where there is constant loose soft snow & lots of slip where you need the track speed rather than the torque to get you to the top.

WyoBoy1000 · Jan 26, 2011

Thanks bcktry
I have never said gearing is not a factor.

How about you tell me what the gear ratio is from motor to track, since you seem to know everything, I'm being cereal about it. because right now in a perfect world if the motor is turning 7500rpm your clutching is in a 1:1 ratio with 60/60 gears your going to be running 75mph. So where is the gear reduction? Is there a gear reduction from the lower DD gear to the jack shaft????

Come on your talking RPM vs MPH minutes vs hours. I would argue with someone else but everyone else doesn't get what your talking about. If all you are saying is gearing makes a difference, then sure I agree. But what exactly are you saying. To say we need gears, well not so sure about that as I just stated above.

skibumm · Jan 26, 2011

twsandrew said:
All around 9-10k ft

Twisted RG M1k 174
13 - 18lbs. Mid 70s to low 90s. Was a full 10mph faster with the 162 PC track but the land speed is obviously faster in deep snow and slightly slower in hard pack with the CE 174.

Impulse Race Apex 174 with gobs of motor work and an HTA 3071
92-115mph 17 - 25 lbs
Not bragging just sayin...

I have the same sled without the engine work running a head shim on 50/50 running 15-17# and see 90-105 mph. The race kit is wicked fast and Paul has also figured out the clutching to handle the power.

mynewuseddoo · Jan 26, 2011

WyoBoy1000 said:
Thanks bcktry
I have never said gearing is not a factor.

How about you tell me what the gear ratio is from motor to track, since you seem to know everything, I'm being cereal about it. because right now in a perfect world if the motor is turning 7500rpm your clutching is in a 1:1 ratio with 60/60 gears your going to be running 75mph. So where is the gear reduction? Is there a gear reduction from the lower DD gear to the jack shaft????

Come on your talking RPM vs MPH minutes vs hours.

M1000's have 60/60 gearing and, as per this thread, they seem to be getting up into the 90-100mph range. Your math might be a little off Wyo

.

So instead of me dropping my gearing to 54/66 with my turbo sled, I should be going higher for more top end track speed, correct? Maybe a set of 63/57 or 64/56 gears are in order? So at 9 psi on my M8 climbing in heavy snow I should be seeing my track speeds hitting 70+ mph with the taller gears then, sweet.

^^^Ridiculous, I know, Trying to make a point though. If dropping my gearing is the wrong thing to do then what is the perfect gear ratio to be using in my TM8?

JSCC · Jan 26, 2011

backcountryislife said:
well... we all have GEARING in our sleds right now... I'm almost POSITIVE I've got some gearing in my DD, let me look quick though! Btw, in talking about a 1:1... I'm pretty sure we're talking about in the sheaves not a straight 1:1 motor to track ratio...

What Wyo & I have said in the past is that the gearing down fad is, for MANY people, pointless.
To me though, it really depends on a bunch though to say that. I feel that the PNW riders that ride on stiffer snow are better served by lower gears than those of us on a rocky mtn snowpack, where there is constant loose soft snow & lots of slip where you need the track speed rather than the torque to get you to the top.

I understand. But the way I took the comment was that he is talking about 1-1 direct.
Everyone can have there opinion on what works and what don't. I am not arguing that fact. I am arguing that a direct 1-1 is not possible.

JSCC · Jan 26, 2011

WyoBoy1000 said:
Thanks bcktry
I have never said gearing is not a factor.

How about you tell me what the gear ratio is from motor to track, since you seem to know everything, I'm being cereal about it. because right now in a perfect world if the motor is turning 7500rpm your clutching is in a 1:1 ratio with 60/60 gears your going to be running 75mph. So where is the gear reduction? Is there a gear reduction from the lower DD gear to the jack shaft????

Come on your talking RPM vs MPH minutes vs hours. I would argue with someone else but everyone else doesn't get what your talking about. If all you are saying is gearing makes a difference, then sure I agree. But what exactly are you saying. To say we need gears, well not so sure about that as I just stated above.

The guy above me beat me to many points so I will just touch on a few.
No, I do not know everything. I do know what makes these clutches tick, what it takes to keep them in their efficiency range, and what effect gearing has on such range.
As for gearing. The diamond drive is gear reduced in the planetary as well as your gears. So your 60/60 is not a 1-1 ratio. It is then changed again in the planetary and then again on the drive shaft depending on which size drivers you are using. Since the drive shaft is only 1 1/4 or thereabouts, and the drivers are say 7" wide.

And for arguments sake, if I am at full shift at 7500 rpm, which would be close, I am in the 95 mph range.

WyoBoy1000 · Jan 26, 2011

For hells sake, I said if the clutching was in a 1:1 it would be 75mph and I am stating it as fact its just hypothetical, if you can't give me specifics then don't argue. Such as where the gearing is changed.

In a 1:1 on the clutch it is 8" across the primary and the secondary, then it transfers down to a smaller 60t gear in the DD to another 60t gear then back up though a planetary to the drivers which are 8" wide. So tell me what is the starting and final gear if your in a 1:1. I don't know, just guessing, I'm not the expert. Just saying lower or higher gearing doesnt mean anything without the proper clutching.

Yes I agree there is a perfect gear ratio to have, I'd like to see you tell me what it is. It will change in elevation, hp, snow conditions, rider style, track length, type of track, clutching, how long do you want to keep this up.

As for going faster, after a 1:1 the clutch can shift to something like a 8:1 overdrive or something. I don't know for sure.

If you know clutching then tell us what we should have for gears and clutching in our T-sleds, we would all like to get better power to the ground.

Does the gear actually change in the planetary?, it would start as 8" in the secondary and return to 8" in the driver without an actual gear change.

mynewuseddoo · Jan 26, 2011

WyoBoy1000 said:
For hells sake, I said if the clutching was in a 1:1 it would be 75mph and I am stating it as fact its just hypothetical, if you can't give me specifics then don't argue. Such as where the gearing is changed.

In a 1:1 on the clutch it is 8" across the primary and the secondary, then it transfers down to a smaller 60t gear in the DD to another 60t gear then back up though a planetary to the drivers which are 8" wide. So tell me what is the starting and final gear if your in a 1:1. I don't know, just guessing, I'm not the expert. Just saying lower or higher gearing doesnt mean anything without the proper clutching.

Yes I agree there is a perfect gear ratio to have, I'd like to see you tell me what it is. It will change in elevation, hp, snow conditions, rider style, track length, type of track, clutching, how long do you want to keep this up.

As for going faster, after a 1:1 the clutch can shift to something like a 8:1 overdrive or something. I don't know for sure.

If you know clutching then tell us what we should have for gears and clutching in our T-sleds, we would all like to get better power to the ground.

lol, Wyo, you and backcountry were telling me that dropping my gears from 57/63 to 54/66 is a mistake so I am taking this as you guys must know where I need to be, how else should a guy take it? If ya don't know for sure then why would you suggest that I am making a mistake in the first place? I am not a clutching and gearing whiz and I do appreciate any advice I can get about sled set up but here is another look at it from my point of view. If my final drive with lower gearing is capable (under minimal load) of exceeding my current track speed with factory higher gearing while climbing in heavy snow (under high load) then my complete drive train should be able to maintain a higher overall track speed in heavier load conditions with the lower, easier to turn, gearing. Thats the way I see it.

Basically if I am climbing in heavy snow my track speed is 46-50 mph ish. If the 57/63 gears can max out at "Y" mph at full shift out and the 54/66 gears can max out at "Z" mph. Then as long as the 54/66 "Z" mph is capable of moving the track faster than 50 mph I will have an easier time maintaining a higher track speed.

I am back in Canada Feb 18 and I am installing the new 54/66 gear set on the 20th, along with a new 162 2.5 camo extreme. The camo extreme hooks up better than the powerclaw so it should also produce more load. I will report my honest findings between the 57/63 and the 54/66 gears sets. If they under perform then this can be a heads up to other turbo riders with a similar set up to mine. If it works good, then others can maybe benefit from my trial and error. Either way, I'm gonna have fun

:focus:

This is a great thread, lets save the rest of the gearing crap for a gearing thread.

Beer's on me

:beer;:beer;:beer;:beer;:beer;:beer;:beer;

WyoBoy1000 · Jan 26, 2011

I already explained why and how, But
You might find something, Good luck and let us know, are you going to do the track and gears at the same time or one at a time, if you do it at the same time we wont know whats what.

Coxy · Jan 26, 2011

All bickering aside, the origional question is a good one. Why, and how does a sled making less track speed to the tune of 5-10mpg, lay a spankin on the sled with more track speed? Assuming similar conditions, suspension setup, track type/length etc... This seems to be a very good question that hasn't actually been touched on. There's lots of good reading in the thread about track speed, and it's importance, but overlooked by the debate of theories.

mynewuseddoo · Jan 26, 2011

Coxy said:
All bickering aside, the origional question is a good one. Why, and how does a sled making less track speed to the tune of 5-10mpg, lay a spankin on the sled with more track speed? Assuming similar conditions, suspension setup, track type/length etc... This seems to be a very good question that hasn't actually been touched on. There's lots of good reading in the thread about track speed, and it's importance, but overlooked by the debate of theories.

I would relate it to driving a car on an icy road and breaking the tires loose. Installing different tires might allow you to apply more power before the tires break loose under the sane conditions.

JSCC · Jan 27, 2011

WyoBoy1000 said:
For hells sake, I said if the clutching was in a 1:1 it would be 75mph and I am stating it as fact its just hypothetical, if you can't give me specifics then don't argue. Such as where the gearing is changed.

Diamond Drive Gear Ratio Formula

This formula is to figure overall Diamond Drive ratio only, this does not take into consideration such variable as clutch diameter or driver size.

The formula is as follows;

Transfer Gear / Input = A then A x 2.24 (Planetary Ratio)= Overall Diamond Drive Ratio

Example:

68/52 Gears. The 68 is the input gear (always listed first, clutch goes on this gear). The 52 is the transfer gear so….

52 / 68 = 0.764 x 2.24 = 1.71 Overall Diamond Drive Ratio

In a 1:1 on the clutch it is 8" across the primary and the secondary, then it transfers down to a smaller 60t gear in the DD to another 60t gear then back up though a planetary to the drivers which are 8" wide. So tell me what is the starting and final gear if your in a 1:1. I don't know, just guessing, I'm not the expert. Just saying lower or higher gearing doesnt mean anything without the proper clutching.

You are correct.

Yes I agree there is a perfect gear ratio to have, I'd like to see you tell me what it is. It will change in elevation, hp, snow conditions, rider style, track length, type of track, clutching, how long do you want to keep this up.

I will keep this up as long as I want. But I am not telling you a setup.

As for going faster, after a 1:1 the clutch can shift to something like a 8:1 overdrive or something. I don't know for sure.

Yes most have an overdrive up to around .84:1. Usually you will have more efficiency running your clutch at 1-1 though.

If you know clutching then tell us what we should have for gears and clutching in our T-sleds, we would all like to get better power to the ground.

Does the gear actually change in the planetary?, it would start as 8" in the secondary and return to 8" in the driver without an actual gear change.

Just as I said in my previous post, yes it does.

The problem you have is, you think I am arguing.........:focus:

As for one sled being faster than another with slower track speed. Weight, ski's, belly pan design, attack angle, etc.. all come into play when it deep snow. They all will change your ground speed.
For instance, if I have my sled (m1000) setup for tree riding they way I like it (limiter strap let out), I can spin the track just as fast as I can with the limiter pulled up in but, I can not go up the hill near as far with it like that. The only thing I changed was attack angle.
So my theory on the sled with less power making more track speed but going slower is bad setup.

backcountryislife · Jan 27, 2011

mynewuseddoo said:
lol, Wyo, you and backcountry were telling me that dropping my gears from 57/63 to 54/66 is a mistake so I am taking this as you guys must know where I need to be, how else should a guy take it? If ya don't know for sure then why would you suggest that I am making a mistake in the first place?

You're taking a turbo sled that's at M8 gears, and you want to go down to lower than M8 gears, yes, I feel that's a mistake.

If you have the power to pull the high gears, then you will gain with them. Now an M5... will gain from the gearing you mentioned.

With the 162 & a CE though, you may be at a point where you get enough traction to outweigh the loss of track speed, I think track type & length are huge factors. I thought I had seen your sled being a 153... I must be off.

With both a 153 M1000 & a 141 1000, with powerclaw tracks, track speed & noticeable performance on the hill was lost. Now does it feel like a monster off the line, therefore making it feel like a seat of the pants gain... yeah. The reality though is that few sleds in a loose snow situation, in my opinion, gain from even going to M8 gears, much less LOWER than that. I feel it's a poor choice, but without a control to base off of, you'll have a hard time seeing it.

You should really think about doing the two mods separately, so you can see the results of each on their own merit.

mynewuseddoo · Jan 27, 2011

backcountryislife said:
You're taking a turbo sled that's at M8 gears, and you want to go down to lower than M8 gears, yes, I feel that's a mistake.

If you have the power to pull the high gears, then you will gain with them. Now an M5... will gain from the gearing you mentioned.

With the 162 & a CE though, you may be at a point where you get enough traction to outweigh the loss of track speed, I think track type & length are huge factors. I thought I had seen your sled being a 153... I must be off.

With both a 153 M1000 & a 141 1000, with powerclaw tracks, track speed & noticeable performance on the hill was lost. Now does it feel like a monster off the line, therefore making it feel like a seat of the pants gain... yeah. The reality though is that few sleds in a loose snow situation, in my opinion, gain from even going to M8 gears, much less LOWER than that. I feel it's a poor choice, but without a control to base off of, you'll have a hard time seeing it.

You should really think about doing the two mods separately, so you can see the results of each on their own merit.

Yeah, I'm thinking I will do the track change first and get a fresh baseline top speed with the different track. I will really try to find the same conditions as I was riding last time in order for this to be a good comparison. I bought the gears a few weeks ago so I might as well give them a whirl. I'm also bringing a black marker to mark the sheaves and see where my clutches are ending up under the same conditions. I'll make the marks on them at the bottom of the hill so they are fresh.

I've got a feeling that I'm going to be typing up a long description of the differences between the PC, CE, and new gearing and CE.

mynewuseddoo · Jan 27, 2011

Yes my sled is a 162

Track speed gearing and clutching debate.

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