What is your Diagnosis?

nuggetau · Nov 25, 2011

Here are the symptoms (2011 800 Etec):

The problem started on the first ride this year. When the motor is already warm, it will begin to sputter and loose rpm, then a few seconds later it will begin to scroll "warm up" across the speedo. While in this "warm up" mode it will not allow rpm's above about 5800-6000. Shuting down and restarting doesn't seem to reset anything.

I took it to the dealer this week, they put it on Budds, they said they couldn't find anything so they contacted BRP, BRP blamed it on the aftermarket pipe and can (SLP). They said they wouldn't continue to diagnose it until the original pipe and can were installed. I put the factory pipe/can back on today and had to be towed back to the truck.

Some new symptoms developed today. It would sputter to a stop and die, I could restart it, but it would only idle at about 6-800rpm, not fast enough for even the speedo and instruments to funtion. If you even breath on the throttle it will die. Check engine light come on, and stayed on when it began doing this.

My quesses, in order of probablity.
ECM Failure
Stator
Fuel injector
Electrical short

OK motorheads, tell me what is wrong?

pyxle · Nov 25, 2011

nuggetau said:
Here are the symptoms (2011 800 Etec):

The problem started on the first ride this year. When the motor is already warm, it will begin to sputter and loose rpm, then a few seconds later it will begin to scroll "warm up" across the speedo. While in this "warm up" mode it will not allow rpm's above about 5800-6000. Shuting down and restarting doesn't seem to reset anything.

I took it to the dealer this week, they put it on Budds, they said they couldn't find anything so they contacted BRP, BRP blamed it on the aftermarket pipe and can (SLP). They said they wouldn't continue to diagnose it until the original pipe and can were installed. I put the factory pipe/can back on today and had to be towed back to the truck.

Some new symptoms developed today. It would sputter to a stop and die, I could restart it, but it would only idle at about 6-800rpm, not fast enough for even the speedo and instruments to funtion. If you even breath on the throttle it will die. Check engine light come on, and stayed on when it began doing this.

My quesses, in order of probablity.
ECM Failure
Stator
Fuel injector
Electrical short

OK motorheads, tell me what is wrong?

Warm up displayed : oil pump feedback wire/sensor area - low voltage?
Poor idle: low system operating voltage probably the 55/60dcv side which could be stator,(blown any belts lately?) voltage reg/rec, capacitor, open/short, or many others.

How many miles?

You say 2011 800 etec, is this an X or freeride? If freeride, make sure your headlights hi/lo is not stuck between the two positions. I'll keep thinking of other scenarios that it could be. What fault is active when the check engine light is on?

nuggetau · Nov 25, 2011

pyxle said:
Warm up displayed : oil pump feedback wire/sensor area - low voltage?
Poor idle: low system operating voltage probably the 55/60dcv side which could be stator,(blown any belts lately?) voltage reg/rec, capacitor, open/short, or many others.

How many miles?

You say 2011 800 etec, is this an X or freeride? If freeride, make sure your headlights hi/lo is not stuck between the two positions. I'll keep thinking of other scenarios that it could be. What fault is active when the check engine light is on?

I checked the connections to the oil pump, all seems Ok visually/connected.

2500 miles on chassis, 400 miles on new motor when problem started, blew 11 belts last season, none this year, motor ran Ok when put away last year.

X model, I will check hi/lo.

How do I ascertain fault code? All it scrolls is Warm up, or check engine and light. I will read manual to see if there are buttons I can push to get the code.

Cheynespub · Nov 25, 2011

11 belts in 2500 miles. Thats way too many.

pyxle · Nov 25, 2011

From what I've seen in the past, when a customer blows belts, it causes engine over rev, these stators just can't take that kind of RPM, and the stator fails.

You may want to look at your engine rubber mounts, especially the rear PTO mount, it may not appear damaged from the outside, but it may be faulty.

Check for about 12 volts at the RED/PU wire at the diagnostic connector with the engine idling.

CODES:
Push and hold the M button

As you hold the M button, quickly turn on and off the hi beams a few times. The gauge should enter P CODES

While in P CODE mode, use the M or S button to scroll over available failure codes.

nuggetau · Nov 25, 2011

pyxle said:
From what I've seen in the past, when a customer blows belts, it causes engine over rev, these stators just can't take that kind of RPM, and the stator fails.

You may want to look at your engine rubber mounts, especially the rear PTO mount, it may not appear damaged from the outside, but it may be faulty.

Check for about 12 volts at the RED/PU wire at the diagnostic connector with the engine idling.

CODES:
Push and hold the M button

As you hold the M button, quickly turn on and off the hi beams a few times. The gauge should enter P CODES

While in P CODE mode, use the M or S button to scroll over available failure codes.

The first belt failed at 380 miles (all easy trail miles early season break-in last year). So it seems unlikely that the motor mount was defective from the start. But I guess stranger things have happened.

I will check the voltage tommorrow, provided it will start. I previously checked it and it read 14.5V(at starter relay), but that was before the check engine light, and slow idle.

I will report the codes tomorrow. Please confirm that scrolling thru the codes will not remove or clear them? I need the codes to be present when I take the sled in to the dealer.

I appreciate your assistance.

pyxle · Nov 25, 2011

Scrolling through the codes will not clear them.

pyxle · Nov 25, 2011

Fuel pressure? I've seen the filter/pickup inside the fuel pump plug with debris, that would cause the low idle and stalling...but no check engine code.

nuggetau · Nov 25, 2011

OK, thanks. so once the check engine light(code) is engaged it can't reset on it's own? It has to be cleared using Budds?

One additional symptom. When it does the slow idle the needles (tach and speedo) bounce all over the place then stick, sometimes the lights in the panel flicker, but mostly dead. I assume it's just not idling fast enough to generate power to feed the instruments?

mantisman · Nov 25, 2011

If I go threw even 3 belts in a season the dealer will be looking into why and fixing it or I will be getting a different sled and or brand.

nuggetau · Nov 25, 2011

mantisman said:
If I go threw even 3 belts in a season the dealer will be looking into why and fixing it or I will be getting a different sled and or brand.

I agree with you! :face-icon-small-win

nuggetau · Nov 26, 2011

pyxle said:
From what I've seen in the past, when a customer blows belts, it causes engine over rev, these stators just can't take that kind of RPM, and the stator fails.

You may want to look at your engine rubber mounts, especially the rear PTO mount, it may not appear damaged from the outside, but it may be faulty.

Check for about 12 volts at the RED/PU wire at the diagnostic connector with the engine idling.

CODES:
Push and hold the M button

As you hold the M button, quickly turn on and off the hi beams a few times. The gauge should enter P CODES

While in P CODE mode, use the M or S button to scroll over available failure codes.

Started the motor this morning and the engine light was off, sled went thru the normal warm up. I check the voltage at red/purple 14.3v. Checked for codes, it said no P codes. After about 2-3 minutes idleling the check engine light come on and the engine began to run very rough, checked voltage, it's all over the place from 14.3 down to 10V, sometimes no voltage and correspondes with trouble idling. Checked codes when engine light is on and 2 codes come up. 0P0608, 1P1471

What if anything does this tell you?

CHAZWILDMAN · Nov 27, 2011

There is a relay behind your oil tank that controls all 12v it could be bad.......

pyxle · Nov 27, 2011

P0608 ECM Sensor's power supply voltage too low
Damaged circuit wires, shorted TPS or E-RAVE position sensor.
Disconnect TPS and E-RAVE position sensor.
Check E-RAVE positions sensor connector for 5 volts between pin 1 and 3.
Check system circuit J1A-10 for resistivity to ground.

P1471 ECM E-RAVE position sensor functional problem.
Damaged circuit wires or connector, damaged E-RAVE position sensor.

Without actually having the sled in the shop, and diagnosing a little further, I'd say it is either the voltage regulator (inside the ECM) or the stator. But like CHAZWILDMAN said, try the charging system relay located on top of the oil tank first.

Both faults are more than likely related to a low voltage situation.

winter brew · Nov 27, 2011

I'm sure this has been tried and suggested already, but my '11 acted goofy like this one day....was fine ever since. I have heard this happening on other sleds and the simple fix was a new tether key. Too loose or somehow contaminated. I heard that getting an older REV tether works better as they have a tighter fit??? Maybe pyxle can confirm if this is BS or has some merit?
And thanks for the good detailed info pyxle!

nuggetau · Nov 27, 2011

pyxle said:
P0608 ECM Sensor's power supply voltage too low
Damaged circuit wires, shorted TPS or E-RAVE position sensor.
Disconnect TPS and E-RAVE position sensor.
Check E-RAVE positions sensor connector for 5 volts between pin 1 and 3.
Check system circuit J1A-10 for resistivity to ground.

P1471 ECM E-RAVE position sensor functional problem.
Damaged circuit wires or connector, damaged E-RAVE position sensor.

Without actually having the sled in the shop, and diagnosing a little further, I'd say it is either the voltage regulator (inside the ECM) or the stator. But like CHAZWILDMAN said, try the charging system relay located on top of the oil tank first.

Both faults are more than likely related to a low voltage situation.

Thanks!!!! I really appreciate your help! As I can't fix any of the problems you list I will print this out and take it to the dealer this week.

nuggetau · Nov 27, 2011

winter brew said:
I'm sure this has been tried and suggested already, but my '11 acted goofy like this one day....was fine ever since. I have heard this happening on other sleds and the simple fix was a new tether key. Too loose or somehow contaminated. I heard that getting an older REV tether works better as they have a tighter fit??? Maybe pyxle can confirm if this is BS or has some merit?
And thanks for the good detailed info pyxle!

When it began, the first thing I did was adjust and re-adjust the key. It never seemed to make any difference. I have been hearing stories of stator failures, could a stator failure be this intermittant(previous to the engine light coming on, the sled could run normal for as much 20 miles before going into "warm-up" retard mode)?

nuggetau · Nov 27, 2011

pyxle said:
P0608 ECM Sensor's power supply voltage too low
Damaged circuit wires, shorted TPS or E-RAVE position sensor.
Disconnect TPS and E-RAVE position sensor.
Check E-RAVE positions sensor connector for 5 volts between pin 1 and 3.
Check system circuit J1A-10 for resistivity to ground.

P1471 ECM E-RAVE position sensor functional problem.
Damaged circuit wires or connector, damaged E-RAVE position sensor.

Without actually having the sled in the shop, and diagnosing a little further, I'd say it is either the voltage regulator (inside the ECM) or the stator. But like CHAZWILDMAN said, try the charging system relay located on top of the oil tank first.

Both faults are more than likely related to a low voltage situation.

I am having a hard time getting my eyes on the "charging system relay", can you describe it? wire colors, 2pin, 4pin, what angle is best to find it?
Unless you are refering to the 4 pin plug-in that would be used for the electric start?

pyxle · Nov 27, 2011

nuggetau said:
...I will check the voltage tommorrow, provided it will start. I previously checked it and it read 14.5V(at starter relay), but that was before the check engine light, and slow idle...

Starter relay: is this a manual start or electric start model?

nuggetau said:
I am having a hard time getting my eyes on the "charging system relay", can you describe it? wire colors, 2pin, 4pin, what angle is best to find it?
Unless you are refering to the 4 pin plug-in that would be used for the electric start?

Slide the secondary airbox out, (back of the throttle body) and look next to the black box on top of the oil tank, and if it is an electric start model, there should be a 5-pin relay zip-tied to the tank; non-electric start model=no relay.

winter brew said:
I'm sure this has been tried and suggested already, but my '11 acted goofy like this one day....was fine ever since. I have heard this happening on other sleds and the simple fix was a new tether key. Too loose or somehow contaminated. I heard that getting an older REV tether works better as they have a tighter fit?

REV key works better; usually when there's a DESS key problem, the cluster will display "Check Key" every single time the engine is started, a new key will fix that. Winter Brew is right, it could be as simple as programing a new key.

nuggetau · Nov 27, 2011

pyxle said:
Starter relay: is this a manual start or electric start model?

Slide the secondary airbox out, (back of the throttle body) and look next to the black box on top of the oil tank, and if it is an electric start model, there should be a 5-pin relay zip-tied to the tank; non-electric start model=no relay.

REV key works better; usually when there's a DESS key problem, the cluster will display "Check Key" every single time the engine is started, a new key will fix that. Winter Brew is right, it could be as simple as programing a new key.

Manual start, there is a 4pin (active) with the center being dead(no wire).

I would on occasion see the check key last season, I have not seen it yet this year.

What is your Diagnosis?

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