a 2nd "YamaCat" joint venture (Apex) sled??

lundracing · Oct 29, 2014

You are on crack with your desk top caculations. Real world coming from a guy that used to ride a 4 stroke turbo and now would only buy two strokes . The only place for todays 4 stroke sleds is going straight up a mountain at full boost making thunderstruck vid's. Besides that they suck. Don't get me wrong I could make a 4 stroke work, but they just beat the hell out of you comparared to a 2 stroke. Yamaha's feet are stuck in the mud and they are missing the boat. I do see a real potential for them to be ground breaking but it is in the snow bike market. They have the technology, just put it to use. They would sell the hell out of them if the had the first factory produced snow bike.

christopher said:
Ya, NOT SO MUCH in the real world.

Polaris Pro 162 800 RMK
Wet Weight 493lbs
Horsepower 160 (2015 model at sea level)

Power to weight ratio = 3.08lbs per HP

(I list this just for base comparison, NO ONE is going to seriously ride a normally aspirated 4S Viper in the mountains, while the overwhelming majority of 2S riders do ride without a turbo. I am trying to honestly compare apples to apples here..I make NO argument that a boosted 2S will win until its engine fails)

Yamaha Viper 162
Wet weight = 595lbs (this is the only number we have so far)
Horsepower 125

Power to weight ratio = 4.76lbs per HP

Yamaha Viper 162 with OEM Turbo 6lbs Boost
Wet weight = 610lbs
Horsepower 180 (at all elevations)

Power to weight ratio = 3.38lbs per HP

Now lets take these two sleds up into the mountains and ride them at

6,000ft.
Polaris Pro 162 800 RMK
Wet Weight 493lbs
Horsepower 132

Power to weight ratio = 3.73lbs per HP

8,000ft
Polaris Pro 162 800 RMK
Wet Weight 493lbs
Horsepower 121

Power to weight ratio = 4.07lbs per HP

christopher · Oct 29, 2014

lundracing said:
You are on crack with your desk top caculations. .

That's the problem with facts, they are stubborn things that don't care about opinions.

Math is math.
Weight is weight.
Horsepower and torque are just measures of power.

You don't have to be on "Crack" to accept the fact that 4S sleds win the Power to Weight debate more often than not.

lundracing · Oct 29, 2014

But you at what weight do you loose navigability. The 4 strokes are just to clumsy. For the mountains anyway. They make great trail sleds and two ups.

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motojunkie101 · Oct 29, 2014

You may have to leave your purse in the truck when you unload a turbo 4s. The issue in the past was more of a design issue than anything. If Brandy Floyd can rock one this year, the weight argument becomes nullified, imo.

TRUEBLUEMAX · Oct 29, 2014

I think it is funny that polaris guys treat the yamaha group as the little brother but when the little brother shows there are some good things they can do they have to go on the attack.

I don't care what you ride. I have ridden with guys on "better" sleds and I go a lot of places with my Nytro where they won't go on their "better" sleds. It's all stupid. Just ride and have fun.

I will say though there is NOTHING saying that if all the sleds went the four stroke direction that Yamaha would stay on top. I think Skidoo and Polaris have shown as companies they are very aggressive with staying on top of the game. Yamaha may have pioneered the four stroke bike market but their dominance was very short lived. I would just like to see them take some chances at being great.

stingray719 · Oct 29, 2014

lundracing said:
But you at what weight do you loose navigability. The 4 strokes are just to clumsy. For the mountains anyway. They make great trail sleds and two ups.

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The Viper is not the brick you speak of, go ride one and come back...your apology will be accepted.

christopher · Oct 29, 2014

lundracing said:
But you at what weight do you loose navigability. The 4 strokes are just to clumsy. For the mountains anyway. They make great trail sleds and two ups.

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I am NOT trying to make the argument that WEIGHT doesn't matter.
Far from it.
I fully acknowledge my Turbo Viper will be heavier than a Pro RMK.

If Yamaha/Cat could shave off another 50lbs, would I be happier, DAMN RIGHT I WOULD.

The whole point is that Power to Weight Ratio is only ONE part of the equation.

4S mountain sleds are still, for all intents and purposes, in their INFANCY.

lundracing · Oct 29, 2014

Agreed chris

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lundracing · Oct 29, 2014

Sting ray. I had a 1100 turbo . I get the gist. Not that I could not make it work. It just physically kicked your butt. And I am a pretty good sized guy. I could not imagine being a smaller guy and trying to move one around. When I got my two stroke cat the things I could make it do that I struggled with on my 4s amazed me.

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cacsrx1 · Oct 29, 2014

In 3 or 4 years people will be giving these things away for $.30 on the dollar just like every other modded 4 stroke.......been there done that.

stingray719 · Oct 29, 2014

lundracing said:
Sting ray. I had a 1100 turbo . I get the gist. Not that I could not make it work. It just physically kicked your butt. And I am a pretty good sized guy. I could not imagine being a smaller guy and trying to move one around. When I got my two stroke cat the things I could make it do that I struggled with on my 4s amazed me.

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That is why I suggested riding a Viper and I was not being a smart azz. The Viper is almost 100 pounds lighter than the M1100 turbo and the weight the Viper does have is low. I had a 2014 M8 I sold and bought and converted a Viper to an MTX like the girlfriends Viper I converted last year. The Viper set up as an MTX (or be an MTX) doesn't feel any heavier than a M8. That is my opinion after putting hundreds of miles on both.

BigFish BC · Oct 29, 2014

cacsrx1 said:
In 3 or 4 years people will be giving these things away for $.30 on the dollar just like every other modded 4 stroke.......been there done that.

so just like a modded 2s then right

if its modded it aint worth jack

the prob is guys dumping them for nothing so they can get the next big thing

.

christopher · Oct 29, 2014

BigFish BC said:
so just like a modded 2s then rightif its modded it aint worth jackthe prob is guys dumping them for nothing so they can get the next big thing.

That is SO TRUE.

stingray719 · Oct 29, 2014

BigFish BC said:
so just like a modded 2s then rightif its modded it aint worth jackthe prob is guys dumping them for nothing so they can get the next big thing.

Yes because modded Polaris Pro used are doing so well in resale............

2XM3 · Oct 29, 2014

I had a lightened apex, near everything that could be removed was, I really liked it a lot, motor was flawless and it could go pretty much anywhere but at the end of the day, good god I felt like I ran 2 marathons. Ive ridden 2 different turbo nytros and 1 supercharged one. They did not work for me. I had a turbo pro, 2011 ran it at 14-15 psi...that was a fun sled, probably 220 hp? Now I have a 14 pro, stock pull and go. Very easy sled to ride in any condition. All this being said if Yamaha came out with a 500 pound sled turboed at around 240 hp I would buy one in a heartbeat. IMHO in order for a sled to really work well in our snow you need about 2 +/- pounds per hp, without rider. And no matter what the pw ratio is no more than 500 pounds, hopefully much less

turbo800 · Oct 29, 2014

cacsrx1 said:
In 3 or 4 years people will be giving these things away for $.30 on the dollar just like every other modded 4 stroke.......been there done that.

BigFish BC said:
so just like a modded 2s then rightif its modded it aint worth jackthe prob is guys dumping them for nothing so they can get the next big thing.

stingray719 said:
Yes because modded Polaris Pro used are doing so well in resale............

Funny you guys mention resale value. There was a guy at the SLC snow show that had a '14 Pro RMK with 300 miles on it, trying to trade it for a Doo T3. The first offer for trade-in was $7500, he found a dual line dealer that bumped it to $7750 and wouldn't go a penny more. Now I don't know what the guy paid for it (maybe 12-13k)?, but that has to be a huge blow! :frusty:

The only way he could get out from under it was trading, needless to say he was more than a lil bummed! One dealer recommend looking online to see what the private market was going for, it wasn't much better.

Shattered1 · Oct 29, 2014

turbo800 said:
Funny you guys mention resale value. There was a guy at the SLC snow show that had a '14 Pro RMK with 300 miles on it, trying to trade it for a Doo T3. The first offer for trade-in was $7500, he found a dual line dealer that bumped it to $7750 and wouldn't go a penny more. Now I don't know what the guy paid for it (maybe 12-13k)?, but that has to be a huge blow! The only way he could get out from under it was trading, needless to say he was more than a lil bummed! One dealer recommend looking online to see what the private market was going for, it wasn't much better.

Another thing to keep in mind with a boosted Yamaha four stroke is that you can expect to get a lot of miles out of that motor. Provided they are set up right, 10K plus on a boosted RX1, Vector, Apex or Nytro is the norm and is to be expected.

How many miles can you expect out of a boosted two stroke? Even naturally aspirated un-modded two strokes usually need a rebuild every 2-3K miles. When you start modding them, the life expectancy goes way down. That boosted 14 Pro with 300 miles you spoke of may not last to the end of the season. The engine grenading before 1000 miles wouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

And those who say that 4 strokes are too hard to ride need to do two things. Learn to ride it (Throttle is everything. Let the power initiate and hold the sidehill) and get in shape. If you are worried about getting a workout from riding, you may want to explore trail riding. You can plant your a$$ and work out your right thumb and left fingers on a groomed trail without worrying about getting too tired. Frankly, I want to be tired at the end of the day. That means that you rode hard. It's a good thing.

And why do the (primarily) Polaris guys come to the Yamaha section and preach the evils of four strokes? I don't go to the Doo, Poo and Cat sections and tell you what's wrong with your sleds. Ride what you want. If you're okay with your sled, that's great. Go ride it and stop telling me what I should ride. You can tell me how much better your sled is than mine when I'm towing you out. "Your sled sucks...do you think your bumper will hold up when you're pulling me out of this bowl? I hope my A-arms don't break off when you're pulling me up that hill. Your sled sucks."

My two cents. Sorry I got on a rant there.

christopher · Oct 29, 2014

Shattered1 said:
And those who say that 4 strokes are too hard to ride need to do two things.

Learn to ride it
(Throttle is everything. Let the power initiate and hold the sidehill)
and
get in shape.

If you are worried about getting a workout from riding, you may want to explore trail riding. You can plant your a$$ and work out your right thumb and left fingers on a groomed trail without worrying about getting too tired. Frankly, I want to be tired at the end of the day. That means that you rode hard. It's a good thing.

Well said..

turbo800 · Oct 29, 2014

Yup, at the show plenty of emotion of the PRO with a two year engine life span and how it was getting old! I usually ride my sleds 4-6 years, that reliability will never fly with me!

Personally if I was in the market to buy a used PRO, I would want receipts showing the engine had just been gone through, otherwise you have to assume its a time bomb with a short fuse!

I have to wonder WHY if Poo already has crank problems, why they would go ahead and take 2 more pounds out of the crank? WTH? Sure, its gonna rev quicker and get into the powerband faster as they claim. Does that 2 year motor now turn into a 2 month motor???

sidehil · Oct 29, 2014

I hang on 8 years and now am old at 52 , but I'll still take a Yamaha product over anything , just wish they made a f-350 style big truck after 12K spent on my 6 liter ford, bullitproof diesel had better last. Sleds will prove them selves shortly

a 2nd "YamaCat" joint venture (Apex) sled??

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