HM Turbo Days ---> Thumbs up!!

Vi-PEC Powersports · Apr 16, 2012

2XM3 said:
And also another point, if 2 identical sleds are both running the same boost at the same a/f ratio, they will if FACT make the SAME power at the same given rpm point on the dyno.....PERIOD.(not to say one system will not work better for ALL points on the curve) Be it piggyback,vipec,motec,bosch,boondocker,polaris race,dobeck,boost-it or jimbo's deluxe fuel injection from bucksnort Kentucky.

that is absolutely wrong you are forgeting about ignition.same given boost,AFR and one has control of timing and the other not, the timing controlled sled will make approxi. 10%-15% more if not greater. when boosted the dwell cycle(how long you are charging your capacitor for a longer spark duration and intensity) is another factor that will affect performance (hp).....all stuff a standalone take under control.

hobbes · Apr 16, 2012

Thanks for the honest opinion and video Matt. Which one of those Vipec sleds that you rode was making 88mph track speed?:face-icon-small-ton

opcorn:

sledstew · Apr 16, 2012

Matt,just to correct you I was on 6.2 psi at that time we raced,went to 9 psi in the late afternoon. Pulled 84.2 track speed on 9 psi . Only pulling around 73 when I was 6 psi in those snow conditions. That peak track robs major power in that wet stuff.

sledstew · Apr 16, 2012

2XM3 said:
Thanks, I was planning on going but had a last minute deal that I had to see through pop up...:face-icon-small-sad just one of those things, and buisness comes first.

wish you could have made it, there will be another next year.

TurboMatt · Apr 16, 2012

2XM3 said:
Thanks, I was planning on going but had a last minute deal that I had to see through pop up...:face-icon-small-sad just one of those things, and buisness comes first.

Damn 2XM3, I was really hoping on meeting up with you too since we were over in your neck of the woods. I was really hoping on throwing a leg over your sled for comparison purposes. I wanna check out this clutching setup that I'm probably going to be switching too this summer anyways.

PRECISION E.F.I. said:
that is absolutely wrong you are forgeting about ignition.same given boost,AFR and one has control of timing and the other not, the timing controlled sled will make approxi. 10%-15% more if not greater. when boosted the dwell cycle(how long you are charging your capacitor for a longer spark duration and intensity) is another factor that will affect performance (hp).....all stuff a standalone take under control.

This is true. Obviously 2XM3 was thinking timing being the same.

sledstew said:
Matt,just to correct you I was on 6.2 psi at that time we raced,went to 9 psi in the late afternoon. Pulled 84.2 track speed on 9 psi . Only pulling around 73 when I was 6 psi in those snow conditions. That peak track robs major power in that wet stuff.

Ok, I came buy the 6.2 thing. But,why did you spend so much time on your laptop prior to the race then? You told the guys standing around that you were turning up the boost and uping the rev limiter(because your weights were too light for the higher boost you wanted to run) What changed your mind?

Also, I wanna know what you track speeds are on a DEEP & STEEP fresh snow hill, NOT a hard packed hill spring snow hill. Even those vids in Cooke don't look like that soft of snow. When your ground speed and track speed are very close thats not a good time to check track speeds. I check track speeds when I'm wot, pulling up a deep, steep fresh hill and my ground speed is much lower than my track speed. Hell, I can put much sled up on a track stand and get high track speeds, once again it means nothing. After you started making these claims about mph and whatnot again at the event, I cleared out my max mph recall and checked it immediately after the drag race. Guess what? At the 9psi & broken clutch spring that I had I still had a 76mph track speed.

Personally, I expected with Shane running 7psi, you running 6psi & me at 9psi to be very close & it was. I don't think anyone should have any shame in this, it seems pretty realistic. (However I do wish that my primary spring wasn't broken,LOL) I would expect the advanced timing, water to air intercooler & Vipec ecu control to make up a 2-3psi difference.

TurboMatt · Apr 16, 2012

PRECISION E.F.I. said:
Thankyou for clearing things up about the actual price. So basically to equip most anyone else's kit(ie not a HM kit) you need a lot of add on's to make it correct. That's my point, don't hide things. Why would you say $1995 when you know most kits(people) are NOT running a NGK AFX wideband
not needed on HM turbo, for other kit if you want to tune correctly it is requiered, but with the other kits, aren`t you receiving a wideband?? i thought yes.
fpr, map sensor,etc. If I'm gonna spend $1995, I sure as heck am gonna spend an extra $500 to make it "right", no need to hide it.
:face-icon-small-sho tried to hide??? if you want to correctly tune a turbo appplication you need a fpr....if you don`t want one it is ok .....but you are going to chase your tail when tuning it!!

Also, I was told by Jake that he would not allow me to run the Vipec with my current Innovate Wideband. Buying the NGK AFX is neccesary. He said throw that thing in the junk pile its that bad. In fact he has a junk pile of them at his shop that I can throw it on or I can have the whole junk pile for free because he can't give them away!

Please understand where I am coming from:
The reason I say you are trying to hide something is that why aren't you bringing up all these extra costs up front? I would think that you are trying to target selling the Vipec to other brands as well, not just HM kits, and you have to know that no one else runs the NGK AFX wideband (I'm not sure about the fpr? do other kits like BD or Twisted run fpr's?) so yes for most people it's neccesary. There are a ton more Silber, BD, Twisted kits out on the snow than the HM's(I'm not saying they are better than HM, just saying there are more out there. I think HM turbos is Top Notch IMHO, better than my Silber kit IMHO), so you'd crazy to not target these other brands as well.

snow4shover said:
I like the video it shows that while cruising you can easily see 14-16 afr on an AFR gauge.

You know the #1 complain I get about our controllers on Pros is a lean cruise at 15-17 afr, but most of the people are using Innovate or AEM. Here is a little tit bit of info for you that you might find useful.

AFR Wideband Gauge Error:
AEM: .3-.4 Leaner - so if you target 12.8 on an AEM you are actually running 12.4-12.5
Innovate: .2-.3 Leaner - so if you target 12.8 on an AEM you are actually running 12.5-12.6
AFX: .1-.2 Richer - so if you target 12.8 on an AEM you are actually running 12.9-13.0

These were all tested using Test Gas from Infrared Industries(they make gas analyzers). The Gas is in a pressured tank and is set to a specific AFR.

Thanks snow4shover thats very good info. I know my sled runs rich with the Dobek under most conditions, but I'm too scared to lean it out without using a EGT gauge as reference. Hopefully I'll have the EGT's on my sled for next season and I can get it dialed in.

snow4shover · Apr 16, 2012

What did you guys think of Skeletor..aka that 1000 SDI Aerocharger?

jeepin270 · Apr 16, 2012

Silbers IQ kits all have fpr. Boondockers IQ's don't.

TurboMatt · Apr 16, 2012

snow4shover said:
What did you guys think of Skeletor..aka that 1000 SDI Aerocharger?

We got to conversate with him for a while. Sled is awsome/unique and he keeps it REAL. The type of guy I like hanging around and talking to.:face-icon-small-coo

snow4shover · Apr 16, 2012

Silber's Dragon kits had FPR. The Silber Pro kits don't come with a regulator. He is running stock pressure.

TurboMatt · Apr 16, 2012

snow4shover said:
Silber's Dragon kits had FPR. The Silber Pro kits don't come with a regulator. He is running stock pressure.

I wonder why Silber went away from the FPR? I assume through testing he determined it wasn't neccesary.(especially since the Dragons ran one).
Has anyone run a fp gauge on there Silber Pro of BD kit to see what the fp looks like? 2XM3 don't you have one one your sled?(I thought I remember reading this?)

snow4shover · Apr 16, 2012

We decided it wasn't needed cause the Gen 3.5 can remove fuel, where the Dragons we were running the Gen 3 so to remove fuel many Turbo Manufactures would use a FPR. We have ran a Gauge on Silber's and it would stay pretty consist at 58-60 with the exception of a few that had Fuel Pump issues.

Vi-PEC Powersports · Apr 16, 2012

TurboMatt said:
.

Personally, I expected with Shane running 7psi, you running 6psi & me at 9psi to be very close & it was. I don't think anyone should have any shame in this, it seems pretty realistic. (However I do wish that my primary spring wasn't broken,LOL) I would expect the advanced timing, water to air intercooler & Vipec ecu control to make up a 2-3psi difference.

here is how I see this:
at 9lbs and the others at 6-7, you are suppose to put an extra 40 hp minimum(if properly tuned) and the fact that, on the video, we clarly see you are taking off with a 2-3 sled lenght(where you were starting compare to the 2 other) and the fact you lost by 3-4 lenght makes it a 6-7 lenght loss on a 400-500 ft drag race, all that with 3-4 extra pounds of boost(40 hp more)..... if that is not called a whooped a$$ loss what is it?? what did you expect on the vi-pec ecu over your sled on 400-500ft ??? 20 lenght? not that it matter but 7 lenght on a 500 ft drag assuming jake is on a 155 and you on a 163(lot more grip),,,jesus it one hell of a beat in my books.
go to haydays this summer and check the comments when a racer loose by a sled and tell me what you are hearing??

jsandgren10 · Apr 16, 2012

PRECISION E.F.I. said:
here is how I see this:
at 9lbs and the others at 6-7, you are suppose to put an extra 40 hp minimum(if properly tuned) and the fact that, on the video, we clarly see you are taking off with a 2-3 sled lenght(where you were starting compare to the 2 other) and the fact you lost by 3-4 lenght makes it a 6-7 lenght loss on a 400-500 ft drag race, all that with 3-4 extra pounds of boost(40 hp more)..... if that is not called a whooped a$$ loss what is it?? what did you expect on the vi-pec ecu over your sled on 400-500ft ??? 20 lenght? not that it matter but 7 lenght on a 500 ft drag assuming jake is on a 155 and you on a 163(lot more grip),,,jesus it one hell of a beat in my books.
go to haydays this summer and check the comments when a racer loose by a sled and tell me what you are hearing??

I must be blind because the guy on the right was further up than anyone, all left about same time, only one that came on strong mid way was the middle. And each psi is closer to 10hp no 20hp don't know where you get those numbers at. And there was no 3-4 sled length difference maybe 1 sled length.

You're credibility just went out the window with that post. I thought good things of the vipec but with that blowing smoke of 40HP FOR 2 PSI DIFFERENCE is just nuts, on a silber kit not quite 10psi per pound of boost. And he had a broke primary springs should have been a lot bigger difference.

Good luck with selling them now. If it weren't for Shane at HM the vipec would die off because you haven't been honest from day one. This system is not just $1995 to make it run on silber or BD the two most common pro kits on the market. It will cost closer to $2500, and for $2500 it should be NIGHT AND DAY better in all aspects on/off throttle, wide open, idle, etc. but doesn't look that way.

As it stands it was a $4600 kit vs a $6500 +$2000 = $8500 kit. I don't see $3900 difference in the other sleds.

Sorry but there was no a$$ whooping in that video.

SNOMAN1174 · Apr 16, 2012

Man a lot of poop talking on here over a mere 500 foot run and an entire 22 second clip. I want to be there next year to run my td8 against all these pros. Looks like fun. I don't know, maybe its just me but based on that clip it seems you could run those 3 sleds 3 times and get different winners based on holeshot. 100% having a broken primary effects performance. I would like to host a Colorado turbo day at molas next year. We have a perfect 3-4 wide race hill we already call turbo hill. All the vipec talk really makes me wanna run against one. There are some really strong running pros and dragons down here. Be real fun to see how they all stack up.

TurboMatt · Apr 16, 2012

PRECISION E.F.I. said:
here is how I see this:
at 9lbs and the others at 6-7, you are suppose to put an extra 40 hp minimum(if properly tuned) and the fact that, on the video, we clarly see you are taking off with a 2-3 sled lenght(where you were starting compare to the 2 other) and the fact you lost by 3-4 lenght makes it a 6-7 lenght loss on a 400-500 ft drag race, all that with 3-4 extra pounds of boost(40 hp more)..... if that is not called a whooped a$$ loss what is it?? what did you expect on the vi-pec ecu over your sled on 400-500ft ??? 20 lenght? not that it matter but 7 lenght on a 500 ft drag assuming jake is on a 155 and you on a 163(lot more grip),,,jesus it one hell of a beat in my books.
go to haydays this summer and check the comments when a racer loose by a sled and tell me what you are hearing??

Yeah, I'm don't think we are watching the same video. 1st off, I'm the one on the far left. I started a 1/2 sled length behind everyone. Jake is the one on the far right with the 2-3 sled length lead. Shane is in the middle. He finished the race 1 - 1 1/2 sled lengths ahead of me and Jake. Jake and I we dead even by the top of the hill.
There is no way that my Silber kit makes more than 10psi per pound of boost. So I had maybe 20hp more in boost alone over Shane's sled. I think he should have made that up with the Vipec & water to air IC & his 3" track. Same with Jake. It seems like a pretty fair race to me. And the outcome was pretty even, go figure.
Unfortunately, there was no whoop assing going on.
I personnaly was hoping there was going to be a whopp assing. I was truly came into the day open minded and Hoped that The VIpec sleds were going to be amazing, like mind blowing. I truly would have bought one this summer if that would have happened. As you can see it did not.
Its hard to make any true assumptions on just a video. This race included as well as your "driveability" video you posted. I'm sorry but for most of that video you posted you could have been running a Doebeck box and I wouldn't have known any different. Sure you held the sled at a steady throttle for 2 miles. Who knows, maybe my sled would be ok too when doing that. I'm not gonna try it because its my personnal sled and I'm ok with brappin the throttle every once in awhile going down the trail.
Also, why do you keep referring back to this race if it not important to you?

jsandgren10 · Apr 16, 2012

TurboMatt said:
Yeah, I'm don't think we are watching the same video. 1st off, I'm the one on the far left. I started a 1/2 sled length behind everyone. Jake is the one on the far right with the 2-3 sled length lead. Shane is in the middle. He finished the race 1 - 1 1/2 sled lengths ahead of me and Jake. Jake and I we dead even by the top of the hill.
There is no way that my Silber kit makes more than 10psi per pound of boost. So I had maybe 20hp more in boost alone over Shane's sled. I think he should have made that up with the Vipec & water to air IC & his 3" track. Same with Jake. It seems like a pretty fair race to me. And the outcome was pretty even, go figure.
Unfortunately, there was no whoop assing going on.
I personnaly was hoping there was going to be a whopp assing. I was truly came into the day open minded and Hoped that The VIpec sleds were going to be amazing, like mind blowing. I truly would have bought one this summer if that would have happened. As you can see it did not.
Its hard to make any true assumptions on just a video. This race included as well as your "driveability" video you posted. I'm sorry but for most of that video you posted you could have been running a Doebeck box and I wouldn't have known any different. Sure you held the sled at a steady throttle for 2 miles. Who knows, maybe my sled would be ok too when doing that. I'm not gonna try it because its my personnal sled and I'm ok with brappin the throttle every once in awhile going down the trail.
Also, why do you keep referring back to this race if it not important to you?

I don't know about you but there are no 2 miles straight stretches where I live to ride steady throttle anyways. I just love the 2 stroke sound with a BOV too much not to let off the throttle haha.

Vi-PEC Powersports · Apr 16, 2012

jsandgren10 said:
I must be blind because the guy on the right was further up than anyone, all left about same time, only one that came on strong mid way was the middle. And each psi is closer to 10hp no 20hp don't know where you get those numbers at. And there was no 3-4 sled length difference maybe 1 sled length.

You're credibility just went out the window with that post. I thought good things of the vipec but with that blowing smoke of 40HP FOR 2 PSI DIFFERENCE is just nuts, on a silber kit not quite 10psi per pound of boost. And he had a broke primary springs should have been a lot bigger difference.

Good luck with selling them now. If it weren't for Shane at HM the vipec would die off because you haven't been honest from day one. This system is not just $1995 to make it run on silber or BD the two most common pro kits on the market. It will cost closer to $2500, and for $2500 it should be NIGHT AND DAY better in all aspects on/off throttle, wide open, idle, etc. but doesn't look that way.

As it stands it was a $4600 kit vs a $6500 +$2000 = $8500 kit. I don't see $3900 difference in the other sleds.

Sorry but there was no a$$ whooping in that video.

6lbs jake vs 9-10 lbs (silber) = 3-4 lbs at 10 hp per lbs = 30-40 hp....
6psi and 10 psi is way different.....should have smoked the other guys.....maybe the primary spring made all the difference!!!!

there is nothing i can do/say to make you understand what kinda benefits you can get from that ECU.....reliability,power,tuning options,altitude compensation,individual cylinder trim,disabled reverse cutoff, launch control, dwell configuration ect.....i understand it is not for you but you couls aknowledge it is a very big evolution in the sledding community.....but no you won't say it, you rather post out of context statement and go wild about it.....anyway.

jsandgren10 · Apr 16, 2012

PRECISION E.F.I. said:
6lbs jake vs 9-10 lbs (silber) = 3-4 lbs at 10 hp per lbs = 30-40 hp....
6psi and 10 psi is way different.....should have smoked the other guys.....maybe the primary spring made all the difference!!!!

there is nothing i can do/say to make you understand what kinda benefits you can get from that ECU.....reliability,power,tuning options,altitude compensation,individual cylinder trim,disabled reverse cutoff, launch control, dwell configuration ect.....i understand it is not for you but you couls aknowledge it is a very big evolution in the sledding community.....but no you won't say it, you rather post out of context statement and go wild about it.....anyway.

Now you are pushing boost numbers. Shane was running 7psi according to the video, not 6, and Matt was running 9psi not 10 psi. So there is a 2psi difference not 4 so at best 20hp.

And a few posts prior you told EZ that a 6psi vipec HM would absolutely smoke a 10psi Silber, but a 7psi hm vs a 9psi broken primary spring silber lost by 1-1.5 sled lengths, lets keep to the facts.

I have always said its a big advancement and have said in any thread you guys have posted I think it will be the future, but YOU have to acknowledge its not at that point yet or if it is it is simply not that much more impressive than other stuff out there for its hefty price tag. I totally understand that it is a very advanced system capable of doing almost anything you want to a sled, but just because you can change all parameters on a sled doesn't mean it will SMOKE anything else.

Does it idle great? Yes. Does it run great? Yes. Does it run 1.5x as good as just a silber turbo since that is how much the setup would add to a silber kit? I'm not so sure yet.

And to think it is not a product for me you are missing my point. ANY snowmobiler would love a standalone that you never have to touch, but so far you guys continue to tweak on the laptop between runs, or when adding or subtracting boost, etc. And no mountain rider will want to have to do that, drag racing is different because you have time to tune between runs. If it were truly a plug and play system that someone bought and never had to "fine" tune their sled with a laptop would be a lot more appealing.

2XM3 · Apr 16, 2012

PRECISION E.F.I. said:
that is absolutely wrong you are forgeting about ignition.same given boost,AFR and one has control of timing and the other not, the timing controlled sled will make approxi. 10%-15% more if not greater. when boosted the dwell cycle(how long you are charging your capacitor for a longer spark duration and intensity) is another factor that will affect performance (hp).....all stuff a standalone take under control.

:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :lalala: :lalala: :lalala: :lalala:

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